Busting hurricanes with ocean cooling pumps
March 10, 2010 | Length: 00:02:50
A climate scientist at Stanford University's Carnegie Institution is trying to cool the seas to weaken hurricanes and minimize the death and destruction they bring. In research funded by Bill Gates, Ken Caldeira is developing ocean cooling pumps to cool waters in areas where hurricanes occur. These powerful storms are fueled by warm water so cooling the surface of the ocean even by just a few degrees has the potential to radically diminish their power.
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Posted by dodawunschi
28th May
Show:
0
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Side Effects?
I'd like to see the Environmental Impact Statement on that one.
Posted by MichP
11th Mar 2010
0
Votes
RE: Busting hurricanes with ocean cooling pumps
This is simply a new video dramatizing this scientist's rather old,
but brilliant, idea. The Super Freakonomics (Gobal Cooling) book
details his work and the Gates and ex-Microsoft CTO funding. You can
read much of it online at Amazon, starting around page 270. I hope
the video made it clear (I have no sound) that these pumps are
simply giant inner tubes, with 600+ foot skirts. They have no moving
parts or polluting fuel. Waves of warm surface water simply pass
over one side. This makes them weaker, so less of them pass over the
opposite side. The regular addition of trapped warm surface water
pushes down the water inside the skirt. The added volume of more and
more water is all it takes to push the skirt-trapped water down and
eventually out the bottom, where it mixes with the cold water below.
It may take many of these pumps, but thus will take away the warm
water hurricanes need. I only question how you retrieve the pumps
and what happens when ships encounter them? The same section of the
book discusses other equally and cheap solutions for hurricane and
global warming. By the way, do you know that several planets and a
moon, which obviously lack man-made global warming, are warming
faster than we are? It seems that the Sun, and shifts in the Earth's
rotation, are the main causes of our probably temporary global
warming (see the book and a Climategate post at my www.QuickBooks-
Blog.com).
but brilliant, idea. The Super Freakonomics (Gobal Cooling) book
details his work and the Gates and ex-Microsoft CTO funding. You can
read much of it online at Amazon, starting around page 270. I hope
the video made it clear (I have no sound) that these pumps are
simply giant inner tubes, with 600+ foot skirts. They have no moving
parts or polluting fuel. Waves of warm surface water simply pass
over one side. This makes them weaker, so less of them pass over the
opposite side. The regular addition of trapped warm surface water
pushes down the water inside the skirt. The added volume of more and
more water is all it takes to push the skirt-trapped water down and
eventually out the bottom, where it mixes with the cold water below.
It may take many of these pumps, but thus will take away the warm
water hurricanes need. I only question how you retrieve the pumps
and what happens when ships encounter them? The same section of the
book discusses other equally and cheap solutions for hurricane and
global warming. By the way, do you know that several planets and a
moon, which obviously lack man-made global warming, are warming
faster than we are? It seems that the Sun, and shifts in the Earth's
rotation, are the main causes of our probably temporary global
warming (see the book and a Climategate post at my www.QuickBooks-
Blog.com).
Posted by mblock@...
11th Mar 2010
0
Votes
RE: Busting hurricanes with ocean cooling pumps
While this sounds like a good way to lessen the impact of hurricanes yet still allowing them to occur, I wonder about the impact to what is an essentially natural phenomenon. Storms and hurricanes are destructive, yes, but as always with the ecosystem, such activities can also be part of a system of removal and renewal.
I sympathize with those who have lost lives or property to such natural disasters but I often wonder if we don't bring this amount of ruin upon ourselves by stubbornly clinging to living in places where the probability of such weather is higher and loss to the elements more likely.
For instance, New Orleans is a city that exists only because the ocean has been barricaded. The city itself is mostly below sea level. Yet, instead of admitting that living there poses a higher risk than living further away from the shore and above sea level, and determining it might be better altogether to relocate somewhere else,we decide there is no way we could possibly leave a particular chunk of ground, even if it will cost more to rebuild than to pick up and go elsewhere.
Also, I am curious about the rings impact on shipping. What will happen if a ship moves through a group of rings? Will the rings somehow damage the ship or be towed somewhere where they are no longer effective and may cause a different problem somewhere else. What impact would their be on the marine life? Any chance of animals being trapped or else making the ring their home and decreasing its effectiveness?
Ken Caldera is to be commended for finding a relatively simple solution to a human problem. But I think we need to be very certain that the justification for deploying it balances the needs of all of the ecosystem, not just people.
I sympathize with those who have lost lives or property to such natural disasters but I often wonder if we don't bring this amount of ruin upon ourselves by stubbornly clinging to living in places where the probability of such weather is higher and loss to the elements more likely.
For instance, New Orleans is a city that exists only because the ocean has been barricaded. The city itself is mostly below sea level. Yet, instead of admitting that living there poses a higher risk than living further away from the shore and above sea level, and determining it might be better altogether to relocate somewhere else,we decide there is no way we could possibly leave a particular chunk of ground, even if it will cost more to rebuild than to pick up and go elsewhere.
Also, I am curious about the rings impact on shipping. What will happen if a ship moves through a group of rings? Will the rings somehow damage the ship or be towed somewhere where they are no longer effective and may cause a different problem somewhere else. What impact would their be on the marine life? Any chance of animals being trapped or else making the ring their home and decreasing its effectiveness?
Ken Caldera is to be commended for finding a relatively simple solution to a human problem. But I think we need to be very certain that the justification for deploying it balances the needs of all of the ecosystem, not just people.
Posted by Marketing@...
11th Mar 2010
0
Votes
RE: Busting hurricanes with ocean cooling pumps
Where I live in North Carolina, we get our fair share of hurricanes.
They are absolutely necessary to replenish the aquifers, particularly
in the eastern part of the state. When we went a few years without one
a while ago, wells and rivers were running dry around the region. I
see the law of unintended consequences working hard on this one.
If it leaves the rain but cuts the wind, fine. Otherwise, leave things
as they are.
They are absolutely necessary to replenish the aquifers, particularly
in the eastern part of the state. When we went a few years without one
a while ago, wells and rivers were running dry around the region. I
see the law of unintended consequences working hard on this one.
If it leaves the rain but cuts the wind, fine. Otherwise, leave things
as they are.
Posted by DaveDonaldson
11th Mar 2010
0
Votes
RE: Busting hurricanes with ocean cooling pumps
mblock @ 2: And thanks for repeating, almost word for word, the
explanation that Mr. Caldeira gave in the video.
explanation that Mr. Caldeira gave in the video.
Posted by DaveDonaldson
11th Mar 2010
0
Votes
RE: Busting hurricanes with ocean cooling pumps
If I recall correctly cold and cooler water is denser than warm and warmer water and sinks below the warm and warmer. With the mixture of warmer water from the surface with the cooler water from the discharge of the "ring pump" the mixture will still be below the warmer top of the sea and thus of little cooling effect on the surface IF ANY>
Sounds to me to be a Vast Project based on a Half Vast idea!
Sounds to me to be a Vast Project based on a Half Vast idea!
Posted by WSHBaker@...
11th Mar 2010
0
Votes
RE: Busting hurricanes with ocean cooling pumps
There is also the question of what this idea would do to the food
chains in the ocean. For the most part food chains depend on cool
water rising and warm water sinking. This food chains tend to be
balanced by the seasons and the weather. If you disrupt their normal
flow just what will happen to the present food chains? They could
deteriorate, they could improve and what if they deteriorate or
improve too much. What will that do to our food supplies? What will
it do to our weather? And those are only the major factors, what
about minor factors?
At most they should be tested over a relatively small area and they
should be set-up so they could quickly be deactivated. Also what
would happen to the environment if they were destroyed and their
components were released to travel with the currents?
As MichP stated, "I'd like to see the Environmental Impact Statement
on that one."
chains in the ocean. For the most part food chains depend on cool
water rising and warm water sinking. This food chains tend to be
balanced by the seasons and the weather. If you disrupt their normal
flow just what will happen to the present food chains? They could
deteriorate, they could improve and what if they deteriorate or
improve too much. What will that do to our food supplies? What will
it do to our weather? And those are only the major factors, what
about minor factors?
At most they should be tested over a relatively small area and they
should be set-up so they could quickly be deactivated. Also what
would happen to the environment if they were destroyed and their
components were released to travel with the currents?
As MichP stated, "I'd like to see the Environmental Impact Statement
on that one."
Posted by shanedr
11th Mar 2010
0
Votes
RE: Busting hurricanes with ocean cooling pumps
@WSHbaker, you have shot down a good idea with a halfway thought out
objection. What happens when several tons of water land on top of
something, in this case more water? It displaces whatever it lands
on. Water at the top displaces the water that it lands on and since
the sleeves keep the water from displacing out from under the new
water, it has to go somewhere. It can't go up and it can't go out;
where will it go, thanks to gravity and the fact that water cannot
be compressed very much? Oh, and since water seeks the lowest
level, it won't surge up and out of the tubes. It is more than
heavy enough to push the water out the bottom of the tube,
regardless of temperature.
It doesn't have to be efficient and it doesn't have to displace
pound for pound. It just has to be relentless, like waves.
objection. What happens when several tons of water land on top of
something, in this case more water? It displaces whatever it lands
on. Water at the top displaces the water that it lands on and since
the sleeves keep the water from displacing out from under the new
water, it has to go somewhere. It can't go up and it can't go out;
where will it go, thanks to gravity and the fact that water cannot
be compressed very much? Oh, and since water seeks the lowest
level, it won't surge up and out of the tubes. It is more than
heavy enough to push the water out the bottom of the tube,
regardless of temperature.
It doesn't have to be efficient and it doesn't have to displace
pound for pound. It just has to be relentless, like waves.
Posted by DaveDonaldson
11th Mar 2010
0
Votes
RE: Busting hurricanes with ocean cooling pumps
Does the first Law of Thermodynamics neutralise this pipe dream?
Posted by elderlybloke
11th Mar 2010
0
Votes
RE: Busting hurricanes with ocean cooling pumps
It's not an isolated system. Y'all kill me, trying to shoot down the
work of a trained climatologist with rote assumptions. I think the Law
of Gravity is at work here. The work of the pump isn't driven by
heating and cooling, it's driven by wave action. The First Law of
Thermodynamics is mostly irrelevant here.
Jeez, and I'm not even a scientist.
work of a trained climatologist with rote assumptions. I think the Law
of Gravity is at work here. The work of the pump isn't driven by
heating and cooling, it's driven by wave action. The First Law of
Thermodynamics is mostly irrelevant here.
Jeez, and I'm not even a scientist.
Posted by DaveDonaldson
11th Mar 2010
0
Votes
RE: Busting hurricanes with ocean cooling pumps
I had the same thought as WSHBaker. Yes, all that warm watr piling up in the ring will push downward, but the cold water displaced at the bottom of the skirt has no reason to rise. And you are dealing with an isolated system, if "the system" is the several cubic niles of water surrounding the array of rings. So I see no heat gain or loss in that system, other than the constant insolation.
Posted by mfa@...
16th Mar 2010
0
Votes
Busting Hurricanes with self-powered ocean currents.
There are any number of ways to engineer such a system. It's not a new concept, and it can definitely be made to work.
Yes, it changes a 'natural' phenomena...so did building cities for millions of people along the coasts.
The easiest protection from hurricanes would have been to avoid insuring property in hurricane zones.
I am rather tired of the argument about interfering with 'natural events."
Such interfering is what Life does. That's Life's 'natural process."
I'd go further.
I think we should cool the surface of the entire Caribbean using deep Pacific Ocean water.
This could reduce the current ecosystem damage due to high water temperatures, reduce the impact of tropical storms, provide power and food for Central America, and has the potential to moderate global climate.
It's cheap, fast, easy, profitable too!
(US$10 billion, 7 years, existing tech provides power & food.)
Yes, it changes a 'natural' phenomena...so did building cities for millions of people along the coasts.
The easiest protection from hurricanes would have been to avoid insuring property in hurricane zones.
I am rather tired of the argument about interfering with 'natural events."
Such interfering is what Life does. That's Life's 'natural process."
I'd go further.
I think we should cool the surface of the entire Caribbean using deep Pacific Ocean water.
This could reduce the current ecosystem damage due to high water temperatures, reduce the impact of tropical storms, provide power and food for Central America, and has the potential to moderate global climate.
It's cheap, fast, easy, profitable too!
(US$10 billion, 7 years, existing tech provides power & food.)
Posted by wizoddg
17th Mar 2010
0
Votes
RE: Busting hurricanes with ocean cooling pumps
My guess is it will not work, or will work minimally, as the
effective height of the column of less dense warm water will
counterbalance the addition by wave action.
i.e. you will need waves of over height 'x' to work with
temperature difference 'y', for each particular ring / skirt
geometry.
effective height of the column of less dense warm water will
counterbalance the addition by wave action.
i.e. you will need waves of over height 'x' to work with
temperature difference 'y', for each particular ring / skirt
geometry.
Posted by Stuart21@...
19th Mar 2010
0
Votes
RE: Busting hurricanes with ocean cooling pumps
This seems like a risky weather modification possibility...Creating even a small change in the natural convection of the earths temperature via oceans currents drastically affects life over the whole planet..
I would think a filter half way between the earth and sun could be controlled in the summer period to tweak the heat absorption.. a disk rotating at a rate of 1 cycle every two years, with a controlled variable diameter to increase or lessen the heating effect..
So far the earth seems to be regulating it's temperature by way of volcanic eruptions leading to minor nuclear winter affects, lessening the global warming...
The affects will be drastic no matter what / nothing is done..all must be done with great cane as even minor variations can have dire affect..
I would think a filter half way between the earth and sun could be controlled in the summer period to tweak the heat absorption.. a disk rotating at a rate of 1 cycle every two years, with a controlled variable diameter to increase or lessen the heating effect..
So far the earth seems to be regulating it's temperature by way of volcanic eruptions leading to minor nuclear winter affects, lessening the global warming...
The affects will be drastic no matter what / nothing is done..all must be done with great cane as even minor variations can have dire affect..
Posted by randolphgarrison1@...
6th Apr 2010
0
Votes
RE: Busting hurricanes with ocean cooling pumps
Good idea, will this help in the Gulf when a hurricane hits all of that oil. Where will the oil be deposited? and on whom.
Posted by wileypage
21st Jun 2010
0
Votes
RE: Busting hurricanes with ocean cooling pumps
A layman's suggestion: There was an article linking the reduced incidence of hurricanes in the Atlantic during 2006 (as compared to the disastrous experiences of 2004 and 2005) to the increase in sand storms coming off the Sahara Desert during 2006 and their subsequent cooling effect on the waters of the Atlantic that either prevented or reduced the intensity of hurricanes that year. There is also quite a bit of research on the subject (e.g.: http://www.wunderground.com/blog/JeffMasters/archive.html?year=2009&month=06 ). The suggestion here is if we were to load up "a number" of airplanes with sand or "dust" and dispersed it in front of tropical depressions to cool the waters before they have the opportunity to intensify, could this be a more environmentally-friendly approach to mitigating the worst of these killer storms? Just a suggestion that might be worthy of study by our climatologists ...
Jeff Smith
Brandon FL
Jeff Smith
Brandon FL
Posted by jwsmith708
31st Jul 2010
0
Votes
RE: Busting hurricanes with ocean cooling pumps
Warm water sinking down..??
Is that a new law of nature.??
Is that a new law of nature.??
Posted by dirkbr
19th Aug 2010
0
Votes
RE: Busting hurricanes with ocean cooling pumps
This seems like a risky weather modification possibility...Creating even a small change in the natural convection of the earths temperature via oceans currents drastically affects life over the whole planet..
I would think a filter half way between the earth and sun could be controlled in the summer period to tweak power balancethe heat absorption.. a disk rotating at a rate of 1 cycle every two years, with a controlled variable diameter to increase or lessen the heating effect..
I would think a filter half way between the earth and sun could be controlled in the summer period to tweak power balancethe heat absorption.. a disk rotating at a rate of 1 cycle every two years, with a controlled variable diameter to increase or lessen the heating effect..
Posted by osoz
Updated - 30th Apr 2011
0
Votes
Don't be too narrow sighted
Hurricanes are heat pumps. When there is excess heat on the planet, the waters tend to warm at the surface. If you cool the water, then you reduce the intensity of wind storms created by the circulating air. The problem is, that if you move the heat elsewhere, what environmental effects do you create elsewhere? What wildlife do you cause problems for (including coral)?
What would the environmental effects of operating and powering those pumps be?
It sounds more like we are seeing the effects of the acquisition of a research grant that could qualify fo the William Proxmire's Golden Fleece Award.
The reported research doesn't even suggest all the problems that pumping that water would cause - if it were reasonably possible.
I'd suggest research into keeping the excess heat from even reaching the earth. That research has already been started.
What would the environmental effects of operating and powering those pumps be?
It sounds more like we are seeing the effects of the acquisition of a research grant that could qualify fo the William Proxmire's Golden Fleece Award.
The reported research doesn't even suggest all the problems that pumping that water would cause - if it were reasonably possible.
I'd suggest research into keeping the excess heat from even reaching the earth. That research has already been started.
Posted by FreeloaderFred
27th Aug 2011
0
Votes
CO2 Ocean Recycling Using Wave-Driven Ocean Pumps
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=c3XwOs6jz5o
Similar idea but without sending the warm water down and most importantly it has potential to reduce atmospheric CO2 concentration.
Similar idea but without sending the warm water down and most importantly it has potential to reduce atmospheric CO2 concentration.
Posted by dodawunschi
28th May
Transcript
Music
>> Ken Kalvara: My name is Ken Kalvara. I'm a climate scientist working for the Carnegie Institution at Stanford University. I've been looking at ways that wave-driven ocean cooling pumps can be used to decrease the strength of hurricanes.
Music
>> Ken Kalvara: Hurricanes cause huge amounts of death and destruction. And with global warming there's some evidence that hurricanes are getting more intense. Katrina, when it slammed into New Orleans, ended up killing 1,800 people and caused over 80 billion dollars worth of damage. And so if you could weaken that hurricane, you could have potentially saved well over a thousand lives and many tens of billions of dollars. In general, the hotter the ocean surface, the more intense the hurricane. The sun beats down on the ocean surface and heats the water. Water evaporates off of this hot ocean surface and then condenses in the atmosphere. This condensing water releases a lot of heat, which then causes the air to rise, and this rising air forms a spiral, and that spiral is the hurricane. And so if you can cool the ocean surface, you take fuel away from the hurricane and decrease its power and strength. Wave Sounds The idea is very simple. music You place a ring floating in the ocean surface. In the inside of this ring, there's a plastic skirt that extends downward to where the water's cold. Waves come in and over top this ring, and it builds up a higher water level inside the ring. This higher water level causes that water to be pushed downwards. As a return flow, the cold water comes up from deeper in the ocean. These rings are capable of pumping really impressive amounts of heat downward and bringing huge amounts of cold water upward, and it just takes a few degrees of cooling to make all the difference in the strength of a hurricane. To affect the hurricane, you would need many of these ocean cooling pumps, and it would be expensive, perhaps hundreds of millions of dollars. However, if this is a promising technology that could potentially save lives, and if I were living in New Orleans, I would want people to be studying technologies like this and understanding the potential to save my life and my home.
Music
==== Transcribed by Automatic Sync Technologies ====