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1
07/06/09 | Report as spam
RE: GM officially remains high on hydrogen
Out of curiosity, are there any promising technologies out there for the storage of hydrogen? How about more efficient generation methods? Have not heard anything about fuel cells that can extract h from other fuels like ethanol. GMs cars are just nifty and all but after all the hype died down, I don?t see as much news on this front. I wonder how many young companies working on hydrogen technologies disappeared with the economic downturn.
The focus has shifted back to battery powered cars and battery technology.
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2
07/06/09 | Report as spam
Batteries are in the lead
There's some composite 10,000 PSI tanks for cars that gets range up to 250-300 miles per tank, but they are prohibitively expensive. Storage is a a big challenge that DOE was tackling, but now with reduced federal funding, it's hard to see the storage problem, among others, resolved any time soon.
Home electrolyzers are interesting, but technology is immature, expensive and tied to the CO2 spewing grid.
--JD
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07/07/09 | Report as spam
Without cheap hydrogen, what's the point?
The idea of a hydrogen propelled car is cool, but proceeding full speed in
building it is putting the cart way in front of the ox. Without major
breakthroughs in the collection, processing, storage and dissemination of
hydrogen that is cost effective and not dependent upon fossil fuels, what is
the point?
I fear that this project is little more than a boondoggle to keep GM's new
owners in congress impressed while they figure out what they're going to
do before the taxpayers finally decide they've had enough.
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4
07/07/09 | Report as spam
RE: GM officially remains high on hydrogen
Readers should track back to the recent "H2 Car is not a H2 Economy article, particularly Garry Golden's comments and my own postcript. The Honda Clarity's expensive, but not prohibitively so, tank holds about 5 kg at 5000 psi, far safer than gasoline, and gives it almost 300 miles range. H2 production is down close to $5/kg, but with fuel cells over twice as efficient as combustion engines, that's workable, also. All necessary technologies are close, none in need of a Steve Chu 'miracle'. Building a massive infrasctructure is problematical, but forklift, bus programs, urban cars like the Rivedrsimple, and comparatively small regional community programs (Vancouver/Whistler, Columbia/Aiken SC, Hamburg, London 2012) can provide some much-needed visibility and garner public support for the H2/FC industry. For the inevitable electric-vehicle future, various configurations of advanced batteries/ultra caps and fuel cells will scale to fit all applications.
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07/07/09 | Report as spam
GM & Hydrogen
Finally, something from GM that sounds right. Of course, the new Secretary of Energy doesn't agree -- but he's wrong. Plentiful, non-polluting and tech advances practically daily. It ain't coal, it wouldn't require more electricity generation and -- best of all -- it ain't in the Middle East, Africa or S. America!!
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07/07/09 | Report as spam
RE: GM officially remains high on hydrogen
Though requiring energy to "create" the Hydrogen in the first place is problematic no one seems capable of grasping the unintended consequences of H2combustion. Clean, pure water vapor. Already the most plentiful (95%) of all greenhouse gases and four times more potent on a one to one basis than CO2. It won't be a sum zero game on the H2O either because the water used in H2 manufacturing won't be from distilled water vapor but from other dwindling sources. Sorry.
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07/07/09 | Report as spam
RE: GM officially remains high on hydrogen
GM strikes out yet again. When will they learn? The plug in hybrid is the way to go. There is currently no H2 infrastructure. No one is going to buy a H2 car until the H2 is available, no one is going to build the H2 infrastructure until the demand is there. Catch 22? If GM was smart which history is proven they are not. They would build the plugin hybid then at such time should the H2 infrastructure develope the fuel side can then be easily converted be it traditional H2 powered engine or Fuel Cell. However in the long term I dont believe the government will allow full electric cars, How do you road tax a full electric? Which is a major source of tax income, one Im sure they wont give up without a fight. H2 provides a controlable point of sale that can be taxed which is why its being pushed nomatter how ineffecinet it is.
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07/07/09 | Report as spam
RE: GM officially remains high on hydrogen
Why be concerned about an infrastructure. We've seen how the price fixing by the oil producers affects us. I'm for the portable H2 generators as part of each vehicle. No stranglehold on the fuel supply. Driving on the highways with fuel cell 'bombs' flying along at 75+ mph doesn't sound like a happy ending. (ever see a 12 V battery explode from a spark mixing with the H2 given off during charging?)
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07/07/09 | Report as spam
Hydrogen is not a fuel...
...with the tremendous expense for production, transportation and storage, Hydrogen needs to be recognized for what it truly is, an Energy Storage Medium.
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07/07/09 | Report as spam
RE: GM officially remains high on hydrogen
MAjorTrouble: Why stop with real-time on-board hydrogen generators?
Let's just power electric motors directly from cosmic rays? Or maybe an engine that's powered by,,, let's say ... the wishful thinking of the ignorant. Plenty of that to go around.
And readwryt; all fuels are energy storage media. Hydrogen would ..like a special energy-reduction and storage medium. Like corn methanol.
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07/07/09 | Report as spam
RE: GM officially remains high on hydrogen
Hydrogen has a list of huge problems to overcome. Production. Storage. Transport. Safety. System efficiency. Infrastructure development. Cost. Any one of these could turn out to be fatal to the scheme. All of the requirements together appear to make the prospects very dim.
Even if the technical problems can be overcome, what have we gained? There must be an energy source availble to produce hydrogen. What is it? Can we add energy production for transportation (with an additional factor to compensate for inefficiency of the hydrogen-fuel system) to our non-fossil-fuel production system?
As far as I know, GM hasn't offered a reasonable case for eventual success, together with credible estimates of overall development costs. Time for a review by the National Academy of Sciences (or some other independent organization with the required capabilities)?
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07/07/09 | Report as spam
RE: GM officially remains high on hydrogen
Remember it takes electricity to convert water to hydrogen and oxygen components but no one ever think how electricity is generated. Depending on your region your country most electricity is generated by burning some form of fossil fuel (ie coal, natural gas, oil, etc.) so what you think you carbon offset in the car is just moved to the electrical system. Unless we use solar, wind, hydro, tidal, or nuclear to generate large percentage of electricity, this "cleaner" fuel is just moving the carbon to another source.
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07/07/09 | Report as spam
Honda is in the lead though ...
... with its fuel-cell offerings. If you've got natural gas in your home, you have your own hydrogen refueling capabilities and the excess heat from the production of hydrogen can heat and light your home.
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07/07/09 | Report as spam
RE: GM officially remains high on hydrogen
300 miles on a tank with only 5 kg...that's incredible if true. I've heard that hydrogen is a storage medium and not a fuel, but that's highly technical if not meaningless point. That's like saying gasoline is not a fuel until it's ignited in a high compression chamber. It's the same with hydrogen: it does not produce electricity to drive the vehicle's motor until its positively and negatively-charged ions are separated. Hydrogen, IMO, is a fuel.
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07/07/09 | Report as spam
missed the ponit
Again the idiot culture at the top of GM missed the point! Hydrogen is nice, clean and politically correct.
But buyers want a car that is not made of tinfoil and plastic. Buyers want a car that will hold its value for years, and not break down as soon as the warranty runs out. Until hydrogen can be manufactured cheap and clean it?s a non starter.
All of the car manufacturers still have not made a car that is any more efficient pound for pound than a fifties car what was professionally tuned as people did in the fifties. All they have done is make them lighter and cheaper!
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07/07/09 | Report as spam
RE: GM officially remains high on hydrogen
Pardon me for this flame, I am so sick of the uninformed, blowing off at the mouth or keyboard without real technical savey.
Hydrogen can be produced by a SOLAR CELL and two electrodes in a glass of water.
NO pollution, to use of coal, I use a solar cell in my backyard and a jar to make enough to power my barbaque grill "Makes oxygen and hydrogen "called browns gas" it is a simple matter to make it seperatly also., oil or natural gas. NO connection to the electrical grid.
Think before you post, Hydrogen is the only thing that will get the United states energy independant and the sooner it is done the sooner we can put an end to green house gasses. I am not hiding if anyone wishs to respon my email address is mychucky@funport.net.
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07/07/09 | Report as spam
RE: GM officially remains high on hydrogen
As usual GM management jumps to erroneous conclusions.
Hydrogen is highly flammable, so much so that it can be considered
explosion at times. To put vehicles powered by such a fuel going down
the road is extremely risky. Remember those vehicles that tended to
become fully inflamed when struck in the rear at even slow speeds?
Imagine what will happen when a hydrogen fueled vehicle is struck hard
enough to puncture a fuel tank.
Hydrogen is indeed a clean burning efficient fuel. But I do not want to
share the road with a vehicle powered by it.
As a fuel for stationary engines it seems far superior to coal, gasified or
otherwise. With hydrogen in stationary fuel tanks away from nearby
homes and businesses provided electricity or as a power source for
manufacturing it would seem ideal. The ability to have the fuel
contained away from sources that could cause an involuntary ignition
makes an highly flammable fuel as safe as it can be made. The
benefits would far outweigh the risks.
I would much prefer that GM and other auto manufacturers put their
effort into electrical vehicles, not those with dangerous fuels.
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07/08/09 | Report as spam
We need a little help from High School Chemistry
Wouldn't it be easier to seperate the hydrogen from something besides water? I seem to remember from Chem 101 that there are a lot of things that can be treated to extract the hydrogen they are composed of. But however we do it, the downstream output of hydrogen generated power is water. We just have to figure out how to make an "ecosystem" for hydrogen as a part of the energy infrastructure.
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07/08/09 | Report as spam
RE: GM officially remains high on hydrogen
Once again to remind everyone that the product of combustion of Hydrogen is water vapor. While it is not politically correct to say that water vapor is a "greenhouse gas" with 4x the blanketing effect of CO2 it is nonetheless true. Also, the danger of Hydrogen "explosions" was really given a boost by the nut case reporter that we have all heard describing the Hindenburg immolation. Truth of the matter is, casualties were at a minimum because the fuel was lighter than air and spilled up instead of down. Interesting concept, spilling up.
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07/08/09 | Report as spam
Ursut Iosif
My INVENTION solves the earth climate crisis.
New combustion process for all kind of purifies combustible, with complete combustion make of Injector for complete combustion.
From complete combustiom obtaine H2CO3+N2 which is drinkable and will be recycled.In the world have not obtain a gram of CO2 because never have not created complete combustion. Combustion is only precipitat, CO, HO, NO, SO, SiO. If there were coldioxide then all forests would be green and healthy, the cancer in humans is created by oxides, cure is to stop quickly emanation of oxides.With my invention is stop gases which cause greenhauseffect.This is a problem at level guvernamental.Guvernment must decide placing application invention at national level.With this Invention is solve earth climate crisis; With my invetion will be manufactured a car which has exhaust only H2CO3+N2 which is drinkable from all kind of hydrocarbons.
1. Make the stop at outslep from all cars.
2. Make the stop at outslep from all combustion plants
3. By burning of hydrocarbons to get CO2, This is the fertilizer for plants and forests.
4. The CO2 will be gathered in tanks and is used as fertilizer to fotosinteza.
REAKTOR for heating water, with this Invention shall be solved climate crisis. The greenhouse effect will be stopped for ever.This Reactor will be used in a closed circuit to produce the heat water up to 100? C and 500 atm or vapour up to 200 atm or more for turbins, houses not exist exhaust(There is no escape.). Efficiency it is ? = 99, 98%. I wish to explain me work is on 44 pages. Hallo contact a chimist.
Greenhaus effect is made of oxides, CO, HO, NO, SO, SiO etc because combustion of hydrocarbons always was incomplete in the world. I wish help to solve the earth climate crisis and stop quicly emanation of oxide which produce cancer.
My inventioon saving.
1) Car industri.
2: Create milions jobs.
3). Create clean energy.
4). Prevent cancer by stopping oxides.
5). Reduced to half the consumation of crude oil to contry.
6). The H2CO3+N2 = (CO2+ H2O) +N2 it is a fertilizer to agicultur which is producted from combustion of crude oil. They either will sell to drink.
7). Greenhaus effect is stopped for ever.
8). Create a new century with a clean climate
I expect answar. Buy my invention.
Regard, Thanks
Ursut Iosif
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21
07/08/09 | Report as spam
ursut@live.se
My INVENTION solves the earth climate crisis.
New combustion process for all kind of purifies combustible, with complete combustion make of Injector for complete combustion.
From complete combustiom obtaine H2CO3+N2 which is drinkable and will be recycled.In the world have not obtain a gram of CO2 because never have not created complete combustion. Combustion is only precipitat, CO, HO, NO, SO, SiO. If there were coldioxide then all forests would be green and healthy, the cancer in humans is created by oxides, cure is to stop quickly emanation of oxides.With my invention is stop gases which cause greenhauseffect.This is a problem at level guvernamental.Guvernment must decide placing application invention at national level.With this Invention is solve earth climate crisis; With my invetion will be manufactured a car which has exhaust only H2CO3+N2 which is drinkable from all kind of hydrocarbons.
1. Make the stop at outslep from all cars.
2. Make the stop at outslep from all combustion plants
3. By burning of hydrocarbons to get CO2, This is the fertilizer for plants and forests.
4. The CO2 will be gathered in tanks and is used as fertilizer to fotosinteza.
REAKTOR for heating water, with this Invention shall be solved climate crisis. The greenhouse effect will be stopped for ever.This Reactor will be used in a closed circuit to produce the heat water up to 100? C and 500 atm or vapour up to 200 atm or more for turbins, houses not exist exhaust(There is no escape.). Efficiency it is ? = 99, 98%. I wish to explain me work is on 44 pages. Hallo contact a chimist.
Greenhaus effect is made of oxides, CO, HO, NO, SO, SiO etc because combustion of hydrocarbons always was incomplete in the world. I wish help to solve the earth climate crisis and stop quicly emanation of oxide which produce cancer.
My inventioon saving.
1) Car industri.
2: Create milions jobs.
3). Create clean energy.
4). Prevent cancer by stopping oxides.
5). Reduced to half the consumation of crude oil to contry.
6). The H2CO3+N2 = (CO2+ H2O) +N2 it is a fertilizer to agicultur which is producted from combustion of crude oil. They either will sell to drink.
7). Greenhaus effect is stopped for ever.
8). Create a new century with a clean climate
I expect answar. Buy my invention.
Regard, Thanks
Ursut Iosif
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22
07/08/09 | Report as spam
Far too little, far too late...
Way to go GM: make your billions of profit over the last 80-odd years, then fleece us poor schmucks for your "development" of an unstable, uneconomical "alternative" that has zero chance of actually helping anyone or anything - except YOUR pockets! And BTW - we're running out of water. Oh, hadn't thought of that? Of course you had. You know that water-based vehicles (first proposed in a viable fashion by a New Zealander around the end of WWII, but bought out by one of the greedy oil companies working for Satan) will not help anything, as the amount of usable water is steadily decreasing. Worse, our planet only has 30-40 years to go before the end game, and your endless slow-coach "development" of any viable alternative to oil is just a sop to the mindless greenies and Al Gore. I hope you rot in your ill-gotten billions...
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07/09/09 | Report as spam
RE: GM officially remains high on hydrogen
The concept of using solar or wind solutions to generate Hydrogen from water is a sound one in my opinion. I can tell you this: if I had a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle, I would simply develop a solar/wind solution in my back yard and automate the process with a simple mechanical system, basically a float tank and flow control to supply water to the electrolysis array, and a simple test tube setup for capturing the freed hydrogen (and possibly the oxygen) with a simple compressor to pump the hydrogen into a propane tank. From there the pressurized gas could easily be transferred into the holding tank of the vehicle. Free fuel! Just leave your hydrogen generator on all the time. It's quite windy and sunny here on the east coast, pretty much all the time. I like it...
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07/10/09 | Report as spam
Hydrogen as a fuel
Let's have a freshman chemistry class calculate the free energy of hydrogen in water and compare it to the free energy of molecular H2. Then apply that cost to moving an automobile vs. the cost of gasoline in dollars per mile. I assure you the rest of the discussion re batteries, cells, storage, distribution, comparative efficiency, and safety is totally irrelevant.
Old Chemical Engineer.
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07/10/09 | Report as spam
Backyard solar cells
Re the guy who wants to power his car from his backyard, is he aware that to match the energy output of 6 service stations requires a solar array the size of Los Angeles? How many us us get to drive our cars 10,000 miles per year then?
Old Chemical Engineer.
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07/10/09 | Report as spam
Future auto fuel
Maybe my previous 2 posts were a little negative. There is a viable answer using today's technology: nuclear generation of electric power and electric cars. IMO an educated look at all of the other alternatives reveals that they either are too expensive or are impractical. Nuclear power's only obstacle is political willpower.
Old Chemical Engineer.
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07/13/09 | Report as spam
RE: GM officially remains high on hydrogen
This fuss over hydrogen is all hype.
Are there no physicists in the audience? Can we please dust off our science textbooks or start using Google? Even when hydrogen is made with renewables, it is not more efficient than using fossil fuel or renewable energy directly, or converting it to electricity and using that.
Hydrogen is not a fuel, and it is not an energy source (fossil fuel, glossing over a bit of refinement, is simply out there, to be found and retrieved by mechanical means). Hydrogen is a carrier of energy made elsewhere. It performs a function analogous to that of an electric battery. Hydrogen is not even an efficient carrier. Electric batteries are more efficient right now, and they look to get better quickly.
In a nutshell, hydrogen is not an efficient energy carrier because it is very active chemically. It?s so active it cannot be found in pure form; in nature it always occurs in very stable chemical compounds like water. To release it, the strong bonds it has formed with other atoms must be broken using large amounts of energy. Releasing hydrogen requires "high quality," high-intensity energy ? usually electricity. This begs the question why, if we already have the electricity, would we throw 30 percent of it away, typically, to make less-easy-to-transport-and-use hydrogen? The answer is that except in limited situations, we should not, we do not, and we will not. Compared with directly using the energy we already have, the bottom line for making and using hydrogen is irretrieveably negative.
In short, hydrogen cannot ever be more viable than the difficult processes we use to obtain it, handle it and use it. For some limited future uses hydrogen may be extracted using a renewable solar energy. But in general, certainly for the transportation sector, it will always cost less to simply and directly use fossil fuel or renewable electricity without the pointless involvement of hydrogen.
Cheap and clean nuclear fission, if it's ever brought into existence, might encourage the use of hydrogen as an alternative energy carrier, but it would have to compete favorably with the electric battery, a more efficient and rapidly advancing technology. This is a remote prospect indeed. Hydrogen will always find niche markets, as it does now. But that is all we can reasonably foresee. Hydrogen is certainly not a panacea.
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08/11/09 | Report as spam
RE: GM officially remains high on hydrogen
Has GM developed a new engine? They once displayed a hydogen powered base for many different vehicles. There was an engine at each wheel. But instead of burning or using hydrogen to power the car, a catalyst was used to convert the hydogen to electricity and charged a battery.
Would be a better future to have a hydrogen, only, powered vehicles.
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02/07/10 | Report as spam
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