-
1
11/03/09 | Report as spam
RE: Apple should cut Mac prices 25 percent
Interesting article but full of holes I think.
Apple makes money on its computers the old fashioned way.
It earns that money. Dell is charging the same for a similar
machine but makes way less overall profit. Why, cause its
losing money on the netbooks just to keep you happy (keep
market share at the cost of profit). Apple just spent Billions on
memory at rock bottom prices for upcoming systems. It has a
sure supply at a great price, Dell pays premium cause its penny
wise and dollar foolish.
Now who did you want Apple to emulate?? Was it Dell?? LOL
"Net Applications doesn't measure market share, Mr. Dodge. It
measures OS information reported by users browsers as they
access NetApps' network of some 40,000 sites worldwide.
Market share is nothing but the number of units sold by a
vendor divided by the total number of units sold regardless of
whether they made money (Apple Macs) or not ("netbooks").
Dell has triple the market share of Apple, generates roughly
33% greater revenue, but makes just 1/3rd the profit. Tell us
why Apple has to dramatically cut Mac prices and increase
market share again?" (from MDN)
Just a thought,
en
-
2
11/03/09 | Report as spam
follow up comment.
I am curious, you point out that there are dozens of machines
out there with every possible cpu and options. And they are
sold cheaply. It sounds like manna from heaven for you!!!
So just why do you want a Mac?? Cannot afford a 15 inch, get
a MacBook and a 24 inch cheap monitor. Apple makes a cable
that lets you use one to run the other. If you buy refurbished,
you can get 24 inches for $800. So, why are you still sitting
there. You should be ordering today......
Unless your just playing a Microsoft troll. Trying to convince
people that Apple units are too expensive when really they are
competitive. Way too competitive for the likes of Microsoft and
its vast troll army.
Just a thought.
en
-
3
11/03/09 | Report as spam
RE: Apple should cut Mac prices 25 percent
Allow me to retort, Apple should not lower prices 25 percent!
You could be correct, but I think not. Apple should not join the
race to become the Lowest Common Denominator computer.
As consumers we love to get something for nothing, or in this
case, more for less. Put more simply bigger is not always
better. Is there any wonder we are a nation of obese people?
Some people have chosen quality though. Apple has created a
business that appears to be healthier if not larger than every
other PC maker. Apple should continue to make money and
not market share points.
-
4
11/03/09 | Report as spam
RE: Apple should cut Mac prices 25 percent
I don't think I'll ever understand the amount of idol worship involved, this Apple cult thing is just incomprehensible.
-
5
11/03/09 | Report as spam
RE: Apple should cut Mac prices 25 percent
You get a PC (any major brand) configured like a Mac and you're
pretty much going to pay a price close to what Apple charges...
maybe more.
And that's not idol worship.
-
6
11/03/09 | Report as spam
RE: Apple should cut Mac prices 25 percent
And Mercedes, BMW and Lexus should cut their prices to gain
market share!
A Chevy and a Mercedes are both cars. They get you from A to
B. You can take a vacation in each. And they keep the rain off
you. But they are inherently different.
So are Macs and PCs. Keep it the way it is... you pay a premium
for the better vehicle whether it's a automobile or a vehicle for
surfing the web.
-
7
11/03/09 | Report as spam
RE: Apple should cut Mac prices 25 percent
You can buy a refurbished Mac from Apple...
Refurbished MacBook Pro 2.53GHz Intel Core 2 Duo
15.4-inch LED-backlit glossy widescreen display
4GB memory
250GB hard drive
8x SuperDrive (DVD?R DL/DVD?RW/CD-RW)
SD card slot
Built-in 7-hour battery
NVIDIA GeForce 9400M graphics
Illuminated keyboard
$1,449.00
That just saved you $250... (:
-
8
11/03/09 | Report as spam
Cult my foot
Why do the MicroShaft sheep just love to call Mac users fanboys and
cultists? Is that the best they can come up with? Did it actually
ever occur to them that we are so diehard in our believes because
there is no logical reason why ANYBODY would want to use the pieces
of trash that are sold these days posing as "computers"? There is a
better way, we're just spreading the word, enlightening the haze
that M$ spreads over the masses.
99% of the Mac haters out there haven't even used a modern Mac
longer than a few minutes anyways. And yet I'm betting most of the
Mac users out there are forced to work on Windows machines every
day. So in the end, the Mac users constantly get their beliefs
reinforced that Macintosh computers truly are superior, and WELL
worth the "extra" money you pay for them. If you get a Windows
machine you will pay for the difference and then some. Time is
money, and that's just the least of the problems.
-
9
11/03/09 | Report as spam
RE: Apple should cut Mac prices 25 percent
You state that Apple should cut prices by 25% and predict that
would increase Apple's market share.
So, Apple lowers prices and more people buy Macs - Win/Win,
right?
Not a win at all - here's why.
Let's work with the 15-inch MacBook Pro you were cooing over.
It sells for $1700, if Apple cut the price by 25% it would now
sell for $1275 - GREAT.
Great for who? Let's assume that Apple has a 30% profit margin
on their laptops (should be pretty accurate).
Apple sells MacBook Pro for $1700 and gets $510 of gross
profit but if Apple sells the same MacBook Pro at the price you
suggest, $1275, they only get $85 of gross profit. Yikes! $85
of gross profit means Apple's new gross profit margin is 6.7%
What do you think think that would do to Apple's stock.
Many would point out that Apple would make it up in volume!
Reality check time. Apple would have to sell 6 lower priced
MacBook Pros to get the same profit that they now get by
selling just one. Does anyone think Apple will sell 6x as many
Macs if they lower the price by 25%. I don't.
Sure, Apple could increase their margins in other ways:
outsource their tech support
start building stores with cheaper materials
stop providing healthcare to its' employees
start selling space for crapware on their computers
stop providing free Genius Bar appointments
lower the build quality and/or feature sets in their computers
start charging for iLife
spend less on R&D
advertise less
I'm sure none of those won't reduce the overall satisfaction
customers have with the New Apple!!
Big picture time. If Apple is doing it wrong then tell us who is
doing it right. Specifically, which PC manufacturer would you
point Apple towards to emulate?
You either need to decide that you want to spend less (and get
less) with a PC or make an investment and buy an Apple.
Either way is fine.
Your suggestion of reducing prices by 25% would start an Apple
death spiral. I highly recommend that Apple does not take your
business advice.
-
10
11/03/09 | Report as spam
RE: Apple should cut Mac prices 25 percent
I'm a life-long PC user who is now determined to move to Mac. I assumed I would have to suck it up and shell out big bucks -- but after looking at the functionality of the MiniMac and a basic MacBook, it looks like I'm going to spend LESS than I would have replacing my desktop and laptop PCs. Why? Because I don't have to spend $1000 MORE to buy extra stuff (Office, Norton, new peripherials that are "obsolete" by MS's snobby Vista/Win7 standards)because ALL of that comes with a Mac automatically.
MS and their partners give you the land; you gotta build the house. Mac gives you the land AND the house in one price. Can't wait to move in.
-
11
11/03/09 | Report as spam
Why do Mac sheep accuse PC sheep of being sheep?
I use both Macs and PCs. They're both good. You only get viruses on
Windows if you're an idiot. Windows is much better if you're
dealing with foreign scripts such as Arabic or Chinese and office
stuff such as word processing and spreadsheets are still a lot
better on Windows. But Macs are better for graphics and video,
mainly because of FCP and Logic. OSX is prettier and more user-
friendly for technophobes, but Windows has greater software
options.
It's that simple really.
And as they rely more on ipods and iphones, watch how they stop
caring become more popular they're also becoming less consumer-
friendly. You know, just because they love you -or perhaps they
love your money.
But Mac is as greedy as any other computer company. If they carry
on growing behind the ipods and iphones, watch their greed and
cynicism as while their "nice" facade is revealed for the sham it
is. The cracks are already there:
1. Why take the firewire out of Macbooks? To force you to buy
Macbook Pros for an extra bag of dollars.
2. Why make FCS3 incompatible with Power PCs even though the
software actually supports them? To make you buy Intel Macs and
throw your Power PCs in the bin.
3. Why make Color require a massive screen when it actually works
on smaller screens? To make you buy their HD screens.
4. Why make the upgrade to FCS3 so cheap? Because if you buy the
cheap upgrade to FCS3 you'll probably end up upgrading your
hardware.
Mac are after your money, just like Windows. But at least Bill
Gates is one of the biggest philanthropists in the world. I don't
think you can say the same about anyone at Mac.
-
12
11/03/09 | Report as spam
RE: Apple should cut Mac prices 25 percent
I use both Macs and PCs. They're both good. You only get viruses on
Windows if you're an idiot. Windows is much better if you're
dealing with foreign scripts such as Arabic or Chinese and office
stuff such as word processing and spreadsheets are still a lot
better on Windows. But Macs are better for graphics and video,
mainly because of FCP and Logic. OSX is prettier and more user-
friendly for technophobes, but Windows has greater software
options.
It's that simple really.
But Mac is as greedy as any other computer company. If they carry
on growing behind the ipods and iphones, watch their greed and
cynicism become more obvious at the same time their "nice" facade
is revealed for the sham it is. The cracks are already starting to
show:
1. Why take the firewire out of Macbooks? To force you to buy
Macbook Pros for an extra bag of dollars.
2. Why make FCS3 incompatible with Power PCs even though the
software actually supports them? To make you buy Intel Macs and
throw your Power PCs in the bin.
3. Why make Color require a massive screen when it actually works
on smaller screens? To make you buy their HD screens.
4. Why make the upgrade to FCS3 so cheap? Because if you buy the
cheap upgrade to FCS3 you'll probably end up upgrading your
hardware.
Mac are after your money, just like Windows. But at least Bill
Gates is one of the biggest philanthropists in the world. I don't
think you can say the same about anyone at Mac.
-
13
11/03/09 | Report as spam
Cut price Apple
I think the BMW/Chevy Mac/PC analogy works really well.
Apple computers are a step above the average and like BMWs people
aspire to own them. Who sets a goal of owning some crappy Dell
Dementia??!
Read the latest Consumer Reports if you're still unclear about why Macs
are worth the price.
-
14
11/03/09 | Report as spam
One more thing...
'empollon':
You know so much about all of this you think 'Mac' is Apple.
Oh, and you posted your comment twice.
You must get a lot of viruses.
-
15
11/03/09 | Report as spam
RE: Apple should cut Mac prices 25 percent
Alot of people are novices just trying to surf the web and do email, so technically they are idiots and these people do get viruses and believe me, when your system is trashed and infected you sure will be wishing that you paid the mac tax. Windows lures you in with low priced junk that is vulnerable and insecure, but people dont realize that until it is too late.
I have been on the internet using macs only since 97. I have never had virus software on any of my systems and I spend an incredible amount of time on the internet.
I have never had:
a virus
adware/trojan
blue screen of death(no such thing)
registry problems(no such thing)
reinstall system software
It amazes me when some of my windows friends call me after not hearing from them for weeks saying that they had to re-install windows. Most of them are technically competent in fixing it but why ? why would you want to spend your time doing battle ?
For many people though they arent able to fix the problems and are in for a world of hurt when your system acts up.
What does this have to do with 25% ?
I don't think Apple is focused on market share, they are focused on providing quality, beauty and premium experience.
Ford is focused on market share, mercedes is not. Mercedes will never have the most market share of cars nor do they want to. If they did, then they would be doing something wrong. Wrong with their brand and the brand is not just a high price tage and a emblem. Just take a ride in a premium car and you will know what you are paying for.
Mac's are like an elite club, if you can afford the cover charge then you get a VIP experience. No hassles, no problems and premium experience.
-
16
11/04/09 | Report as spam
RE: Apple should cut Mac prices 25 percent
new iMac is pretty hot too....BTW, I owned a 1999 Mercedes E320 and got 212k miles out of it before I sold it. It was rusting away....very serious rust problem. I bet the Mac doesn't suffer from rust!
-
17
11/04/09 | Report as spam
RE: Apple should cut Mac prices 25 percent
Please do us a favor. Get the Macbook, get a comparable Win 7 notebook, and get a comparable Ubuntu notebook. Get them free from vendors (just show them this). If they don't participate they fail. Compare the three and give us a weekly report, six months should be good. We need this. All three OS's have a new version out, it's time. Hurry up we're waiting...
-
18
11/04/09 | Report as spam
"too cheap to shell out megabucks for a Mac"
Macs are three orders of magnitude cheaper than "megabucks". Seriously, why this constant hyperbole over the cost of Macs?
Sure, Macs are somewhat more expensive than comparable Windows PCs. The only reason they seem expensive is they don't offer dirt-cheap POS products like the PC manufacturers.
-
19
11/04/09 | Report as spam
Neil2112: The BMW/Mercedes analogy doesn't work at all...
When is the last time that a BMW or a Mercedes had the same engine as, say, a Chevy Impala or a Ford Taurus? Yet, Macs use the same "engines" or CPUs as those "lesser" PCs. Imagine if a Mercedes or BMW salesman tried to sell one of their automobiles to a purchaser and disclosed before the purchase that the engines are the same as in the Chevy. Would the purchaser be willing to pay 2 or 3 times more for the BMW or the Mercedes as he would for a Chevy? I think not. If the engine is the main component of any car, why would anyone stupidly spend 2 or 3 times as much on a Mercedes or BMW that has the same engine as a Chevy?
What exactly is it that differentiates a Mac from a PC, and what makes either one of them superior to the other? The OSes are both of high quality and both are very capable, with the PC's OS (Wiindows7) actually having more applications and programs available for it. I liken the number of applications available to the roads for the automobiles. No matter what the automobile brand, any one of them can use all of the highways and roads that are built for automobile travel. Now, imagine that a BMW or a Mercedes is limited to say, just 70% of those roads, while the Chevy has access to all 100%. Would the Mercedes or BMW purchaser still consider those makes to be a better purchase, never mind the much higher price?
Also, can a Mac be "customized" after the purchase? Can a MAC owner add a hard drive to his machine? Can he swap out the MACs DVD with another brand? These and too many other problems would tend to put the MAC out of contention as far as I'm concerned.
Then consider obsolescence. A PC's lifespan and a Mac's lifespan cannot be determines strictly by the quality of the manufacturing process. In the world of technology and especially in the world of PCs, obsolescence is dictated by the pace of new technology which renders most products 1 year or older to be outdated and "not as capable" as the "latest and greatest" new version. So, why should anyone pay 33% or 50% more for a PC when in a couple of years time, you might need to upgrade to the "latest and greatest"?
But still, the bottom line is the main sticking point and I don't see the MAC as being a superior product; not when all things are considered. The total value one can get from a MAC will never be greater than what one can get from a PC.
.
-
20
11/04/09 | Report as spam
RE: Apple should cut Mac prices 25 percent
How about you do some real work for a living, and then you can
afford nice things like Macs? Continue whining in print like this,
and it's better for everyone if you don't own a Mac.
Consider buying a used Dell, or picking one up from a dumpster.
You'll have more to whine about. Mac users won't have to suffer
your interminable uselessness. Win all around!
-
21
11/04/09 | Report as spam
@adornoe
My car is a Chrysler and its engine is a Mercedes OM664 power
plant. The Mercedes E-Class that uses the same engine is better
featured and significantly more expensive. I fail to see your point.
Oops.
@jearle
-
22
11/04/09 | Report as spam
@jearle: try again....
My car is a Chrysler and its engine is a Mercedes OM664 power plant
So, basically, the two cars are the same as far as the main components that define what a car is. The question still remains: Why foolishly pay 2 or 3 times as much for a car which is basically the same as the much less expensive make?
The Mercedes E-Class that uses the same engine is better featured and significantly more expensive. I fail to see your point.
Functionally, there would be no difference then. All that you're buying for 2 or 3 times the price is the "better features"? How foolish is that?
The main points and questions that I presented still remain and are not refuted at all by your "better features" car. As an example, would you still purchase that same automobile if it could only be used on 60-70% of the roads and highways while the much less expensive brand can be used on 100% of all roads and highways? I suggest you go back and review my whole post.
Major OOPS!!!!
-
23
11/04/09 | Report as spam
Agree with Adornoe
Why pay more than you have to just to get a job done. Buying a Mac just for the elitist value and snobbery is ridiculous and all the Mac trolls can keep them. They have yet to convince me that building my own system is not as great as buying a Mac system preconfigured and obselete within a year.
-
24
11/04/09 | Report as spam
RE: Apple should cut Mac prices 25 percent
Please put Mac prices up 25%, then lets see how great they are. Would all those stupid Mac fanboys jump ship?
-
25
11/04/09 | Report as spam
RE: Apple should cut Mac prices 25 percent
All these Mac sheep keep bleating on about how great they are, please explain why so many "refurbished" Macs are sold by Apple? Do they get RMed that often?
-
26
11/05/09 | Report as spam
RE: Apple should cut Mac prices 25 percent
@Hate Malware
"Please explain why so many "refurbished" Macs are sold by
Apple"
Okay.
In my case, I purchased my MacBook Pro refurb.
And discovered that the reason it had been returned was a
bad spring in the MagSafe power supply plug.
The pins are spring-loaded, and one wasn't popping back
into place.
No contact, no battery charge. The MacBook itself was fine.
The third party manufacturer for the power supply had
slipped up.
I swapped for a new power supply, and that was that.
Sometimes people send back a computer because they
changed their minds, sometimes there is a minor problem, as
may happen with anything electronic.
Apple is #1 in Customer Satisfaction though, so they must be
doing something right.
-
27
11/05/09 | Report as spam
People are sick of Microsoft... that's the real reason.
A lot of Windows users are looking at buying Macs these days. It's not because Macs are more secure or more stable. They aren't. The first thing I did after doing all the OS updates to my BRAND NEW Mac with Snow Leopard was open Garage Band, which promptly crashed and asked me to send details to Apple. Every time I try to do too many things at once while copying a lot of files in the background, I get an infinite twirling beach ball and have to restart Finder. And don't mention kernel panics to a Mac user who has tried to use a piece of non-Apple hardware. Ugh! As for security, in all of the recent hacker challenges, the Mac drops first. As soon as the Mac gains a little more market share, the malware will flow like wine. It's largely safety through obscurity. None of the current desktop OSes is secure.
BUT - despite the problems the Mac has, people are just sick to death of Microsoft, so they're switching. It's similar to what you said about the insane variety of Intel processors. There are too damn many versions of Windows. How does ANY normal person know if they are getting the right one? Half the time, they don't even get a choice of which version. They get whatever the PC maker decides to include. Then, they wonder what's going to happen when they run something that won't work on their particular version. A lot of times programs don't even tell you why they won't run. You have to figure it out yourself. Plus, Microsoft expects you to PAY for an upgrade to get the features you are missing. People hate paying twice for the OS that was supposed to be included on their computer to begin with.
Windows now has the same confusing landscape that has held Linux back all these years. There are too many versions. Linux users will say, there's only one kernel. Yeah, but there are hundreds of distributions. There are dozens of GUI's. Many programs only work on specific GUI/kernel combinations. For the average person who just wants to be able to run anything that says "Linux" on their machine, that's just unacceptable levels of confusion when they just want to get stuff done.
Windows now suffers from the same thing. You can't just run Windows software assuming it will work. You now have to consider a bunch of additional complications. Do I have 64 bit or 32 bit? Do I need Home, Premium, Business, Ultimate, Enterprise, or whatever? Do I have to run it in XP mode? Am I going to suddenly have to pay for an expensive OS upgrade just to use this $29 program I just bought at Best Buy?
With a Mac, there is no confusion. You get EVERYTHING included, no matter which model you buy. So, there isn't anything missing from your OS when you go to buy a program to run. It just works. Life is complicated enough without having to deal with all of the Windows crippled version plus upgrade madness. Microsoft are idiots for not realizing this. This makes their market share very vulnerable.
Yes, Apple could really cash in on Microsoft's stupidity. People are fed up with Microsoft. If Apple dropped their prices to be more competitive, their sales would shoot through the roof because people are looking for an alternative. The question is whether Apple wants a bigger market share. I'm not sure they do. They are very profitable now, and adding droves of new users would increase the number of problems they would have to deal with. Perhaps they are content with being a distant second in the OS installed base contest. Fewer headaches. High profits. Less effort.
-
28
11/05/09 | Report as spam
BillDem: sounds like you're confused about very little...
Do I have 64 bit or 32 bit? Do I need Home, Premium, Business, Ultimate, Enterprise, or whatever?
Sounds to me like you're easily confused.
First off, the regular John and Jane would only have to decide between Home and Premium editions of Windows7, and all they need to do is ask a salesman what the difference between "all" 2 of them is, or the buyer can even do a little bit of searching for the answer on the internet.
The other versions of Win7 are intended for the more professional and savvy users, like developers. Hopefully those kind of users are savvy enough to understand their needs and it won't be confusing to them; if it is, then they have no business being developers or higher=end users.
Also, when a person purchases a computer, the computer should have some sort of material which indicates whether it is 64 bit or 32 bit; but in all cases, if a person purchases Win7, the product comes with both the 32 and 64 bit versions of Win7, but on separated CDs.
There's nothing complicated about those decisions.
-
29
11/05/09 | Report as spam
@ adornoe
"Sounds to me like you're easily confused.
First off, the regular John and Jane would only have to decide
between Home and Premium editions of Windows7"
You forgot the restrictions on who qualifies for the upgrade
and who doesn't.
THAT was a quite a list.
Normally you buy Windows when you get a PC. But the
Windows license is permanently locked to that case... you
can't transfer it.
I talked to somebody on this just this week. He says when he
builds his own PCs he leaves the Windows Certificate inside
the case... but sad to say, that's not enough to make it legal.
You'd have to buy the FULL version of Windows. Right now,
the upgrade to 7 is $119, but the FULL Premium version can
be as much as $299...
If you buy a brand new PC, you're safe enough: but if you
want to upgrade, be sure you qualify first.
Oh, they'll SELL you the upgrade, and it will likely work, but
M$ had this vaguely threatening language in that 'who can
upgrade' article that could make one pause.
And it's not just a matter of software. At our local college,
there's a workstation that can't really use MasterCAM because
the video card isn't up to snuff.
The world of Windows is a dizzying array of alternatives. You
need to be pretty well educated to make the right choices.
Or hope the salesperson isn't just snowing you.
-
30
11/09/09 | Report as spam
RE: Apple should cut Mac prices 25 percent
It is pretty naive to think one can simply look at initial acquisition
cost and claim one item is more expensive than another.
Reliability, support, maintenance, and a host of other items factor
into what something really costs. I expected more from authors
that claim such extensive experience. Or is it there is a difference
between experience and knowledge?
- mitch
-
31
11/13/09 | Report as spam
Worth more than an extra 25%
Factor in X years of paying for antivirus/antispyware/antimalware programs, paying for backup software, and paying for all the software that's free when you buy a Mac. Factor in how rarely a Mac crashes or delivers cryptic error messages, and how an updated OS (or a new one) costs far less. Factor in the hightest-rated customer service, ease of use, and product quality. Factor in more productive hours doing stuff, and fewer hours fixing stuff, troubleshooting stuff, hunting for drivers, and installing udates, fixes, and patches. You get what you pay for, and I'm more than willing to pay for what I get with Macs. The extra up-front investment is just that: an investment. (And check out eBay prices on used Macs -- the resale value alone makes up for the difference in purchase price!)
The roll-your-own Microsofties crack me up, by the way. Kinda like the grease-monkey who disses your running-like-a-watch Honda, while flat on his back (all weekend) under his hot-rod. These are the same guys who call the Mac a "toy" ... then explain that they don't like it 'cause it won't run their games. :-))
-
32
11/22/09 | Report as spam
RE: Apple should cut Mac prices 25 percent
I've been computing since the early '80s and want to get away from both Windows bloat/maintenance and OSX/Apple costs and policies, etc.
I'm learning Linux and using whatever I want.
-
33
12/14/09 | Report as spam
RE: Apple should cut Mac prices 25 percent
I don't know why apple are making their products so expensive, a slight upgrade in specification results to huge prices..
Mean While are People so into Mac, is it because of it's parent rootness from UNIX?
-
34
01/11/10 | Report as spam
it's a 'culture thing'
some people are prepared to pay for a device that 'just works'
other geeky types just love the details and fiddling and
fixing..they will always improve on the manufacturer...this is
quite often accompanied by a condition called
aspbergers....which refuses to acknowledge another person's
point of view, difficulty relating to others needs etc..
many, mnay IT techs fit this description..there is ONE answer to
the problem, theirs!
mac users are weary of this...that's all..
and prepared to pay for the privilege of not having to learn
geek to fix their computer
simple really.
the BMW/mercedes analogy is particularly apt.
want a car you can 'fix'..or one that holds re-sale value and just
works...with very expensive service every 20K(km)/10K(miles)
-
35
02/08/10 | Report as spam
MuratCan
It is quite common that women usually have the desire to buy new jewelries which are seemed to be better than the old ones.
sohbet
sohbet
kizlarla sohbet
sohbet
dini sohbet
sohbet chat
mirc indir
lida
chat
sohbet
lida
v-pills gold
muhabbet
sohbet odalari
revizyon ile organize matbaacilik brnckvvtmllttrhaberi
chat
fx15
lw6090
rx1
biber hapi
revizyon ile organize matbaacilik brnckvvtmllttrhaberi
Zaytoz.com - Cakma orumcek Webmaster Forumu 2011 Seo Yarismasi
forum
sohbet odalarieer
