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06/18/09 | Report as spam
RE: A hydrogen car is not a hydrogen economy
Dana - Thank you for the post- and forward looking perspective of energy portability and the role of chemical storage in electricity markets.
A few thoughts-- First I think there is tremendous value in using natural gas as a transportation fuel - especially when we're talking about electrochemical conversion in a fuel cell and not blowing it up via a combustion engine. There are challenges to home based natural gas reformation but it is not impossible. Electrolysis based home production is potentially more cost effective given the emerging field of nanostructured catalysts that support energy appliances capable of splitting water at low cost and high efficiency.
(And yes, going purely renewables to H2 is ideal! I just expect natural gas to be around and would rather use it in electrochemical conversion than combustion!)
Re: storage. We are still short on current solutions but solid state storage via physical adsorption (e.g. MOFs / COFs) should help us move beyond today's chemical absorption via heavier hydrides. Then there is also the option of using hydrogen rich liquids. Solid state storage gives us the option of manual 'swap out' of fuel cartridges and retail shelf distribution. So imagine going to the store and buying your entire fuel in packets for a month- or a truck delivering six months of fuel in one visit. You refuel by exchanging old / new. Bic has shown an interest in this retail based energy packet model and I often say that "hydrogen is the next bottled water". (Just as soon as we figure out storage!)
I'm not sure I share your faith in utilities adopting hydrogen. They lack the incentive to innovate under the current regulatory framework. In fact, I would argue that fuel cells (esp micro fuel cells) are a threat to the biz model of central grid utility model. Embed your gadgets, air conditioners, cars, coffee makers, thin screen displays with micro fuel cells-- and you have power plants in every product. That future then requires a 'fuel' provider not a power plant operator. (Yes, of course it needs large plants, but the consumer touches the fuel packet rather than draw from the electricity stream.)
Anyway-- no need to digress further! These are more forward looking concepts- but disruptive nonetheless. I also always like to remind people that a 'hydorgen economy' is an economy run on electricity. Geoffrey Ballard was fond of framing it as Hydricity. (Helps to show relationship between electrons and molecules - something battery advocates miss)
I appreciate the post-- and thank you for keeping energy storage via chemical bonds alive!
Best
Garry Golden
Editor
The Energy Roadmap.com
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06/22/09 | Report as spam
RE: A hydrogen car is not a hydrogen economy
Garry, your comments professionally round out Dana's obvervations. You didn't return to the topic at hand though, the 'Riversimple'. It is not the type of product that requires a massive hydrogen economy to support it, nor incredible advances in technology required to produce quick-charging, low-cost, reliable, and lightweight batteries or lower cost large fuel cells. It much more similar to the fuel cell backup solutions and fuel cell powered forklifts which as of 2008 are a viable technology with a better value proposition than the current envrionmentally unsound lead-acid battery conventional solutions.
The Riversimple is an urban vehicle which would need a limited and highly concentrated fueling infrastructure, and like pure electric vehicles, produces absolutely no point source emmisions. And like fuel cell forklifts, it would also produce less polution and greenhouse gases than any combustion, pure battery electric, or combustion-battery hybrid on the market or near-market today, no matter how the hydrogen is produced (with renewable hydrogen a possibility in addition to natural gas reformate).
Jim Horwitz
Fuel Cell Intelligence
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06/22/09 | Report as spam
RE: A hydrogen car is not a hydrogen economy
Maybe somone else can followup with details, but didn't the Dane's or Sweed's already invent a solar powered fridge size H2O cracker to power their new hydrogen cars. The building of another infrastructure by big biz isn't a nation priority in my mind.
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06/22/09 | Report as spam
science/
correct me if I'm wrong, but hydrogen cars emit water vapor, don't they? And water vapor is a greenhouse gas - i.e. it helps retain heat in the atmosphere.
There is a lot of discussion of warming models not taking into account precipitation/water vapor being an impact to the warming.
So how can thousands of hydrogen cars be good for helping with climate change??
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06/22/09 | Report as spam
RE: A hydrogen car is not a hydrogen economy
While a neophyte to this technology, it does not seem that a massive interconnected system of pipelines across the country, distributing a substance with as much volatility as hydrogen, is advisable. Or even required.
It seems more likely that a network of regional production plants would be tasked with the production and charging of re-usable fuel cells. Fuel cell exchange sites would then replace the gas stations we currently use, with the "empties" being routed back to the regional plants for a re-charge.
I can't estimate the number of regional plants needed, or the ratio of fuel cell exchange sites that would be required for adequate service levels. But it seems to be a much safer idea, and is perhaps even necessary due to the nature of fuel cell technology.
The earlier comments may even support the idea that large regional plants are not necessary. If micro-production is actually feasible, then each exchange site may have its own production facility - like a micro-brewery making beer for limited consumption, almost a "neighborhood" type of business, with no limitations on who could decide to start their own station, or network thereof.
And I'm not a scientist, but it sure seems that there would be less output of pollutants fnatural gas from the production of the fuel, than from the equivalent burning of natural gas to move vehicles with.
We live in an interesting age; I'm hoping for the best.
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06/22/09 | Report as spam
RE: A hydrogen car is not a hydrogen economy
Hope this will come true one day
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06/22/09 | Report as spam
RE: A hydrogen car is not a hydrogen economy
Hydrogen fueled vehicles are the obsession of fairy-tail tellers who for whatever reason (could it be futures profits or funding for their research) have been spinning this tale to those who have not thought out the lack of logic in this fable. Think about it... The Three Pigs all learned from their co-hort who used logic in his plans!
However H2 is MANUFACTURED is the key to its fallacy. Whatever means used to produce this fuel... they require additional energy.
We can readily use natural gas. Most metro area transportation districts use Compressed Natural Gas to fuel transient busses. When is the last time you have seen a billowing cloud of black SOOT belching from the back of a city bus? Most of this has been accomplished by state & federal subsidies. I still am at a lose why school busses have not been afforded the same energy & pollution sparing conversions... but that is another story for another day.
Long ago (1970's) Popular Science or Popular Mechanics detailed a clear cut method of vehicle refueling with natural gas via a compressor connected to the same line that supplies the gaseous fuel to the hot water heater in the garage which many consumers hardly ever pay any attention to until it fails to provide hot water or leaks. The gas form of this fuel needs to be compressed to a liquid in order for the vehicle to carry an adequate supply. Why has this not been promoted 30 years after first being discussed in print? Well I am not one who looks over my shoulder for the black helicopters or that boardrooms are full of those colluding to prevent this from occurring...
Yes... not all areas in the United States have natural gas distribution networks. But like the words whispered to Kevin Cosner... build it and they will come.
Another fair-tail that companies tell is the one which has liquid CNG being brought to the USA in super tankers... WE HAVE PLENTY RIGHT HERE! Just ask T. Boone Pickens.
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06/22/09 | Report as spam
RE: A hydrogen car is not a hydrogen economy
Just two questions from ignorance...
1. Can anyone not remember the Hindenberg or 9/11? What an
opportunity!
2. What happens when we run short of "Natural" Gas? Ferment more
foodstocks?
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06/23/09 | Report as spam
Econdor makes a great point
I have long advocated that the water "pollution" created by fuel cells in
cars, or in any other devices, should and can be sequestered, at the
bottom of the unit. You just put a pipe at the end and it can be collected at
the bottom, then deposited into the local water supply for whatever
treatment we might want to give it.
The advantage here is that you are collecting water where energy is being
used. The more energy being used in a place, the more water that is
collected in a hydrogen system.
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06/23/09 | Report as spam
Bricur makes an excellent point
I agree with you, Bricur, and this is part of my point.
If you're making hydrogen with natural gas, which is what we do today,
then there is no advantage.
The purpose of a hydrogen infrastructure is to absorb "excess" energy
produced by renewable systems. Right now electrical grids refuse this
excess, meaning many wind farms aren't working full time.
If these wind farms could produce hydrogen when the grid didn't need
them, you would have a portable energy store of renewable energy.
Current grids are set up to cut off sources of supply when they are not
needed. Fine for coal-fired plants, and natural gas-fired plants. Bad for
wind farms and solar panels and geothermal systems.
So hydrogen is needed to take out this excess energy. I'd use it first to
provide back-up power to the grid, through substation fuel cells. As fuel
cells proliferate these can go into neighborhoods and then into individual
homes.
The result is an incredibly robust grid in which blackouts are a thing of
the past.
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06/23/09 | Report as spam
To Dimohn
The problem with the Hindenburg was the containment of the gas in a
big bag. Pipelines are less vulnerable to that. But we can engineer
around such problems. We already do with natural gas.
You're also correct if you think that hydrogen is rocket fuel. Rockets are
sent up with tanks of liquid hydrogen and liquid oxygen. That's water
vapor following them. This is done because the hydrogen-oxygen
combination, when channeled in the right way, provides sufficient thrust
to get rockets out of the gravity well.
I think a space elevator will be much more cost-effective, but that's a job
for materials science I'll talk about another day.
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06/24/09 | Report as spam
Building infrastructure instead of cars lacks sense
There are both good and bad points made in this article.
I support the notion that the utilities should be initial adopters to help build acceptance of this "new" energy source. I think fuel cells are an awesome technology, but I disagree that the availability of micro fuel cells would replace the need for large-scale distribution facilities. Just like diesel-electric production, just because a lot of private companies have their own generators doesn't mean the public utilities aren't still necessary\ for them and everyone else.
I disagree with Dana that cars should not be built before the infrastructure is in place. Historically, the petroleum industry grew wildly *because* of the new-fangled automobile. Where automobiles went, the infrastructure followed because of demand. You'll find all successful private-sector technologies follow the same pattern: create the demand and other businesses will rush in with the supply (expanding the "infrastructure").
To restate my point: production and consumption will support each other. One without the other is a recipe for a short-lived market.
As for hydrogen production using energy, there isn't an energy source we use that doesn't require using energy. Contrary to mining, refining, and distributing over long distances, hydrogen would be a good application for the use of renewable sources, supporting reduced dependence on petroleum (we'll probably never eliminate it). Eventually the energy production cycles will become self-sustaining, which is the ideal objective.
There is also a broader perspective: focusing on only a single energy source is impractical. We need to use everything we have. No one type of energy is suitable for all purposes and it would be short-sighted to limit things that way.
To ECondor11: replacing the many damaging emissions we have now with something that produces water vapor - or drinking water! - is a huge step in the right direction. Even if it were to become something we "have to clean up", the economies of scale will make that both more effective and cheaper; that is, simpler problem = simpler and cheaper solutions.
To dlmohn: the Hindenberg accident was because the vehicle's skin caught fire, in turn igniting the hydrogen gas. The engineers ignored or were unaware that a flammable exterior was a tragedy in the making. Gasoline is volatile, too, but the risk is low because safety is now engineered into our vehicles and delivery systems. The same can be done for hydrogen or any other explosive fuel.
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07/02/09 | Report as spam
RE: A hydrogen car is not a hydrogen economy
Hydrogen is by definition a gas and must be handled accordingly.
It can be pressurized and liquified. As mentioned, safety handling can be built in and the technology already exists. Would the demand arise, it would then be supplied on the same demand/offer capitalistic rule.
Now in generating hydrogen and/or liquifying a gas, at minimum it requires energy. It can come from fossils which is a finite source or it can come from the sun like outward or earth center core furnaces.
Anything else, would it be Uranium for the nuclear, natural gas or petroleum derivatives are only temporarily available. They are about 234 nuclear plants in either the building or planning worlwide. The Uranium availability estimate is that we are pretty close to run short!
Consequently, I think that we now have to face the energy problem in a more global approach. I do not think that one technology is better other than by its delivered amount of BTU's it generates. Then, in cities, smaller electrical vehicles w a 100 km capacity for example (refueled at night) may be the solution whereas for long distances, fossil fuels may only be the solution assuming we strive to optimize the energy output!
Nothing is lost nothing is created in this world, there are only change of phase!
Benoit Gravel
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07/07/09 | Report as spam
This is all ridiculous, corporate structure feels threatened
Creating all this senseless structure for hydrogen, gasoline, biofuels is
really wasteful and all of it is short term. We have all the energy we
need for thousands of years right below our feet. Thermal power can
produce all our electricity. A simple industry to tap into the earths core
heat, mostly in the western states would power everything, forever.
There are thousands of near surface geo-areas to be tapped. Drilling
pipelines to carry water to superheat it, is not rocket science. And
most are not in national parks, but around the parks. Iceland did it
years ago. And I suspect there are some areas in the east that could
be tapped with geo exploration.
All this talk of hydrogen cars, not electric, gives me a headache as we
are just prolonging our misery. Also, Hawaii can easily produce all its
electricity from their volcanic features and could go total electric cars
easily. But as always, giant corporate interests, trump human
existance, as we are now beginning to realize. Common sense is not
even a factor in solving these obvious solutions.
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07/07/09 | Report as spam
RE: A hydrogen car is not a hydrogen economy
Hydrogen combustion produces nearly all water vapor as a product. In the cold Winter areas of the country, how much of this water vapor will build up on surfaces, making them too icy for safe travel? Black Ice, anyone...?
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07/28/09 | Report as spam
RE: A hydrogen car is not a hydrogen economy
Burned hydrogen is water vapor; just imagine the streets and tunnels of New York during rush hour!:]
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07/30/09 | Report as spam
RE: A hydrogen car is not a hydrogen economy
I have a problem with a large number of small local plants producing energy products. Each of these plants is going to require a large percentage of the material, staff of the larger plants. The larger plants offer better security and cost. Each of the smaller plants are going to require the same engineers and mainenance staff as a larger plant. The idea of local plants might work in high density areas, but most of the US is spread out and requires miles of infrastructure. Look at the big cities and see how many are supporting vehicles designed for short in city travel. By the way, My father uses a large truck powered by Propane and has had no problems with it, except in the winter, when you have to heat up the fule tank.
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09/10/09 | Report as spam
RE: A hydrogen car is not a hydrogen economy
I would like to express that hydrogen is the most available resource we are going to after the end of the fuels like the petrol, gas deisel.
A car or any vehicle using the circuit of hydrogen fuel cell technology can be a recycler of its own fuel.
Though it seems crazy but thinking about the machanism makes us SMART PEOPLE.
Thank You.
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09/10/09 | Report as spam
RE: A hydrogen car is not a hydrogen economy
Why not produce the hydrogen in the car from one of the most abundance sources on the planet... Water!
The multi-patented ideas of the late engineer/inventor called Stan Meyers see attached link below to a 243 page information
Available for download from the internet for free! http://www.waterpoweredcar.com/pdf.files/Stan_Meyer_Full_Data.pdf
It is not as energy intensive as we are led to believe in the physics we are taught...
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10/30/09 | Report as spam
RE: A hydrogen car is not a hydrogen economy
The day is come that engine is going to run on water.The true growth of india.
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01/12/10 | Report as spam
RE: A hydrogen car is not a hydrogen economy
GIVE ME THE ECOFRIENDLY WAY TO SEPERATE WATER INTO ITS CONSTITUENT ELEMENT AND BEGGER WILL BEG IN A CAR
