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1
06/01/09 | Report as spam
RE: A do it yourself WiFi cloud
Awesome!
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2
06/02/09 | Report as spam
RE: A do it yourself WiFi cloud
A couple points....
I don't understand the need for a special on/off switch for a router. Just
leave it plugged in even when the computer is off and it will continue to
allow wireless connections. I'm doing it right now - PC's off, router is
on, my laptop is connected wirelessly.
Second, you ask do we need protection against other people using our
bandwidth when we are away. Several reasons come to mind that
prompt a "yes" answer. Some ISPs impose bandwidth caps against
"excessive" downloading. I wouldn't want to have my access degraded
or cutoff or incur excessive charges because someone is outside
downloading movies. Another case would be someone using my
bandwidth for questionable or illegal activity such as downloading files
from P2P sites or downloading a bunch of kiddie porn and having that
activity tracked back to my account via the IP address.
I don't see where offering up the wifi through a separate "side channel"
provides any real protection for the person offering up the wifi.
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3
06/02/09 | Report as spam
RE: A do it yourself WiFi cloud
Completely agree with you. Wish more people would do that. I never get to get into others wifi connections so this is a good idea.
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4
06/02/09 | Report as spam
Greg's points have validity
Based on the way that ISPs insist on selling their backhaul service today, Greg's points are valid.
I don't think it has to be that way. Worries about :"bandwidth caps" which he sees in a DIY wifi cloud are the same risks faced by every coffee shop I know of.
My idea of a side channel and separate power supply on the router is that the local network should be isolated from the WiFi with good security as the default, but that the bandwidth itself can be made available to neighbors just as it is at the local coffee bar.
The whole idea of a WiFi cloud is that bits are free. But we don't need Google or Boingo to build it. We can do it ourselves if we have the gear.
But again I thank Greg for his points. They are well worth thinking about in relation to this proposal.
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5
06/02/09 | Report as spam
RE: A do it yourself WiFi cloud
What about if people use your free cloud connection to commit an online crime? Wouldn't the owner of the Cable/DSL router who pay's the monthly subscription to the ISP be responsible for their own line?
famous cases in the past would have been RIAA going after people who downloaded content and the ISP's were forced to hand over info about the registered IP owner?
Sounds like a good plan... but security and legal issues are going to squash this one. We need a system in place to authenticate users, then you can put blame where it belongs (on someone other then me). 
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6
06/03/09 | Report as spam
Stuart Friedman
I'd love to chime in on this one because I am a criminal attorney and
have pulled my hair out of my head trying to get judge's to understand
that proof a transmission came from a given IP address is not
probable cause that it came from the home. I've shown them that my
client's router was unlocked and that the particular device appeared on
a war driving map and was within easy access of a shopping plaza
which had three restaurants/cafes. The judges nonetheless have
upheld the police breaking into my client's homes and seizing their
routers, computers, iPods, and everything else with a plug or cable on
it. They simply say that probable cause doesn't require proof to a
certainty and that it is more likely that the suspect used his own
network than a third party used the network. How would you like to
have your house trashed for being a good samaritan.
The biggest joke around is the local "internet crimes expert" at the
local police department. I crossed examined one one day about VPN,
proxies, Psiphon, wardriving, etc. I might as well have been speaking
in Chinese. The 45 five year old male cop just sits around in chat
rooms pretending to be a 14 year old girl. He then uses a couple of off
the shelf utilities to backtrack the IP address of the person on the
other side, usually when they "swap photos." They then issue
investigative subpoenas and track the IP address back to the person
whom it was assigned at the time and get a search warrant (assuming
they can't get the perp to show up at a mall holding a teddy bear and a
kick me sign pasted to his rear when he goes to meet the alleged
fourteen year old girl).
By the time I made my arguments, the judge had been so
preconditioned from other cases that I might as well have been trying
to get the guy to change religions. The world was flat and he didn't
want to hear anything to the contrary.
If you are going to make your cloud idea work, you are going to need
to VPN the public channel back to some sort of open access server,
perhaps like the FON network does it. That organization should
comply with search warrants and subpoenas, but should turn and
include a disclaimer on the documents stating that it is an open
access spot where the bandwith is donated to the public and that
access to the spot could have taken place up to a mile from the exact
location. Better yet, create some sort of verification procedure to join
the cloud: a valid credit card billed $1 every three months; a
confirmed PayPal account, etc.
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7
06/09/09 | Report as spam
RE: A do it yourself WiFi cloud
Utopia is a fantasy. I'm a lawyer too and, if asked in advance, would advise any client to lock down their router. Otherwise they face the risk of a whole host of potential nightmares, not the least of which is being subjected to civil litigation for any copyright infringement that may occur when others' tap into your network and roam the Net using your IP address. Then there's criminal investigation (for instance, child porn) which creates social stigma as well as drains financial resources too. Although I'm not a fan of metered broadband billing, the only positive side effect might be to make people lock down their equipment since their nickel is on the line for every bit of broadband consumed.
If you're determined to do something like this, then heed the previous poster's suggestion about FON. Also, if you want to do this, you're going to have to keep track of legislation introduced in Congress that would impose network monitoring on all wireless networks, including home WIFI routers. (Hopefully this wonderful piece of poorly drafted legislation doesn't go anywhere.)
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8
06/09/09 | Report as spam
RE: A do it yourself WiFi cloud
I agree with Mr. Friedman, until we can make our wifi connection mrore
secure, the owner of an account will be held responsible for the users.
Varification is needed for the cloud to work.
this is just my opiinion
rider760@yaho.com
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9
06/11/09 | Report as spam
ipv6
The problems cited here with authentication, auditing and security have
a simple answer.
Ipv6.
If every router has its own IP number, and every device connecting to it
has an IP number hard-wired into it, then you can audit the connection
and assign responsibility.
I think DIY cloud routers should have ipv6 numbers, and so should all
new devices. We're talking about 25 digit IP numbers that can include
letters, Greek, hex, and other symbology so we never run out of
address space again.
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10
06/20/09 | Report as spam
An open network can't be liable for use
Not A Lawyer. Set me straight, please, but common sense always eventually prevails in our legal system, doesn't it?
If open networks could be liable for the stuff that flows through them, there could be no open LANs at libraries or coffeeshops or even cable companies. Holy cow.
I see that in Germany, at least, it's been tested in court and sanity won. Doesn't the Grokster case still apply in the US?
An open (for through access) network has less contact with the data going through it then does an ISP and ISP have already been tested to be equivalent to a newsstand -- i.e., not liable. Right?
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06/22/09 | Report as spam
RE: A do it yourself WiFi cloud
Why would I want someone to use my network? I paid for it, are they going to pay me? No.
If people are going to freeload off others then it will mean less money for the ISPs - who in turn will raise the price for the paying people.
Daft idea.
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06/23/09 | Report as spam
Your premise is off the mark
How have people become so distorted in their thinking?
The same ones who want to take my hard-earned money and give it 'free' to others because we should 'share'
So now I pay $50+/mo to have internet access, and you guys want me to 'share' it? I'm no lawyer, but I can see the legal ramifications of letting even my (known) neighbor use my router. He accidentally looks up the Man-Boy Love group and I get hauled off to court.
Coffee shops intentionally put up a router for sharing as a perk to its customers; and I'm sure they pay for sufficient bandwidth..probably a commercial DSL or T1 as opposed to a residential one which is several limited in bandwidth.
I am still amazed that the tech world seems to be so supportive of 'free' stuff - free music, free wi-fi, but don't have any idea that companies are in the business to make money. They're the ones who invested in the infrastructure for phones and the internet..they should be able to recover their investments by selling the service.
Share at your own risk!
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13
06/23/09 | Report as spam
It's a shame
There seems to be a belief here that bandwidth is like a water tap.
It's not.
And Moore's Law keeps dropping the real cost of moving bits around
the country.
The bottleneck is in the local loop, where we face a cable-phone
duopoly whose lives people here evidently believe.
If I use your router when you're not using it I'm not stealing your bits. I'm
borrowing your bandwidth.
If we all cooperate and buy routers that wall-off local networks and offer
their bandwidth otherwise, then you have a WiFi cloud that costs the
monopolists nothing and the government nothing.
The cost of moving the extra bits around is truly trivial.
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06/29/09 | Report as spam
This is dumb
All routers off a WAN ip, and just one WAN ip, irrespective of who is using the subnet LAN ip.
So the idea of sharing your router is nice, but if someone decides to drive-by and use your router as an entry point to the Internet to perform 'nefarious activities', guess whose ip gets tracked Dana. Your WAN ip.
Thus there is no accounting for who was using your equipment. That simply is a problem.
You are better off upgrading your router, to DD-WRT, and setting up with a LAN PC a Radius server protected HotSpot.
That will work and is very doable and SAFE.
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07/02/09 | Report as spam
RE: A do it yourself WiFi cloud
Extended wifi networks are already out there. Here in Arkansas, law enforcement has statewide mobile wifi access to a statewide network that is in turn tied into national networks. None of it is controlled by the phone company, as it doesn't use their equipment.
Depending on the terrain and weather conditions, extended wifi has a range of up to 60 miles and with the help of repeating transmitters, the range can be extended without limit.
Home wifi equipment is made to operate within a range of about 300 feet or less, but with enhanced antennas that range can be extended to a couple of miles or more.
Its most definitely feasible to create a neighborhood or community wifi network. Open source software is out there, developed just for such a purpose. Setting up central server, for customer support if nothing else would be required, and a gateway to the internet would require some sort of server with high speed access would be required as well.
I'm not sure where the situation stands at the moment, but with some portion of the TV broadcast spectrum is supposed to be set aside for community networks and such. So its not so much a question of IF it can be done. Its more of a question as to WHEN, and WHO is going to do it next.
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07/02/09 | Report as spam
RE: A do it yourself WiFi cloud
I'm no expert...but what's the difference between this concept and what FON offers. FON offers a 'free community' of users.
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17
07/03/09 | Report as spam
RE: A do it yourself WiFi cloud
We have to remember that "open" hotspots are normally provided for a reason. Either I'm trying to get you to buy coffee by enticing you with "free" WiFi, or I've paid for it and I don't care who uses it so I leave it open.
Don't know whether its different in Europe to the USA, but as mentioned above, most wireless routers with modems in domestic set-ups already are independent of the computers that might be connected to them - we don't need the extra on/off switch, just leave the router on an dhte network (wired or wireless) is "always on".
So the only issue for us is do I leave it open and unsecure so that anyone can use it who can find it, or do I "protect" it so that they have to ask me. I can understand why the lawyers are saying the safe option is to protect your WiFi form unauthorised or potentially illegal use else risk expensive litigation ... at least until the liability issue of the "access provider" in the event that extraordinary costs or illegal use are made of your WiFi by perhaps "unknown" third parties are clarified.
My opinion: protect your WiFi, and if you want to be altrusic, offer access to your known friends and neighbours by distributing the key ....
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18
07/03/09 | Report as spam
The result
The result of assuming that bandwidth is a like water flowing from a tap and that we would be responsible for others' misuse of the resource is that there is no free community WiFi.
We become dependent on carriers. And we pay as the carriers demand.
It's foolish and it's nonsense. We have cheap technology that can make broadband available everywhere, and we let FUD from carriers keep us from using it. We let these same carriers buy up the rest of the spectrum and hoard it.
The result is poor broadband reach, poor broadband quality, and less access to resources we can all make better use of.
It doesn't have to be that way. If we become a second-class broadband nation -- and we're becoming just that -- the perpetrator can be seen in your mirror.
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07/06/09 | Report as spam
RE: A do it yourself WiFi cloud
Everything is in the cloud now.
Everything.
I hope it doesn't storm
That would totally suck.
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07/06/09 | Report as spam
RE: A do it yourself WiFi cloud
if someone is smart enough to make a router with a side-channel, then it would seem that someone else could be smart enough to have the router and network know which computer received which bits - that the kiddie porn, the RIAA, or the man-boy love website or some of the other silly stuff i read of some of your posts went to the side-channel and thus to another computer, and not to your computer.
but then that why is everyone afraid of the police-state anyway, america should be free, some of you are more paranoid than people living under kgb-controlled communism.
but even in your home network, each computer is assigned a subnet ip, so why cant this data simply be made available when police come a-knocking so that they can see which computer received which bits of data, rather than having to confiscate everything? me thinks that some of you are telling tall tales and i do not think that a single one of you have actually had the experience of a police raid. let me know otherwise....
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07/08/09 | Report as spam
Fear of government
Knee-jerk fear of government is endemic in America. What people don't
realize is that the opposite of government is not freedom, but anarchy.
Without government, organized capitalism is impossible. We need rules
and someone to enforce them.
In a democracy, this fear of government winds up being unhealthy. We
forget that we can change the government, that we have that power
which other people don't have, and this makes it possible for our
government to adjust, to change, to do a better job for us.
Too often this fear is used on behalf of powerful people who, in the
absence of public competition, can simply buy the levers of government
for their own benefit. Like the telecoms who convinced the government
to sell the electromagnetic spectrum.
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07/15/09 | Report as spam
RE: A do it yourself WiFi cloud
The essence of freedom is the proper limitation of Government.
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07/15/09 | Report as spam
RE: A do it yourself WiFi cloud
Problem with bandwidth is the lack thereof. What is this Russia?
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07/26/09 | Report as spam
As already mentioned - FON
You can choose to take a share of the ticket price or not; the network is free to members. The user logs into the network to access it, and traffic can be tracked back to the side channel / user if the network is abused - there is clear evidence that it was not the person making their network available, but one of the users logged into it.
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25
09/09/09 | Report as spam
RE: A do it yourself WiFi cloud
Please answer one question. If this propoasl were to become reality, why would anyone ever pay for wireless access again? If I could use my neighbors' accounts for free, I certainly wouldn't pay for mine (I don't use theirs now because I consider it to be stealing, if not legally, then morally). But then, they wouldn't pay for it either and then who would we all freeload from (rhetorical question, you don't have to answer it because the answer is obvious).
This idea is based on the false belief that it costs little or nothing to "move bits around", implying that there was no startup cost and no ongoing maintenance. Instead of crying "FUD" at people's concerns, try providing information and answers to their questions.
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26
09/09/09 | Report as spam
RE: A do it yourself WiFi cloud
A HEALTHY fear of government is a GOOD thing. I disagree with the characterization that fear of government is endemic in this country. What I see is that people are becoming more open to government solutions to problems; witness the last Presidential election. Although, with the healthcare debacle, a lot of people are seeing the light and aren't just going to accept government run healthcare without questioning it. I do agree that government is necessary, a necessary evil. There are some things it does well and does better than private enterprise could do. I don't know whether the sale of parts of the broadcast spectrum will turn out to be good or bad in the long run but I don't think there is "hoarding" going on. Businesses are probably trying to figure out how best they can use what they have and that likely takes time. But we will see, won't we?
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27
01/29/10 | Report as spam
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02/18/10 | Report as spam
reply danablankenkhorn
sevgili karde?im danablankenhorn;
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02/18/10 | Report as spam
RE: A do it yourself WiFi cloud
turk oldugum icin turkce yaziyorum kusura bakma
(i write reply turkish for i turk sorry) (you can use translate google)
bak bence bir konuda yaniliyorsun wi-fi oyle her yerden cekmez
binalrin duvarlarinin cok oldugu yerde wi-fi cekmez metaller arasinda sinyal pek gelmez wi-fi ceksin istiyorsan wi-fi li cihazinin antenini biraz buyut.
mesela nokialara sigara kagidi koyuyorlar tamam mi
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organize matbaac?l?k
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02/20/10 | Report as spam
RE: A do it yourself WiFi cloud
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02/24/10 | Report as spam
RE: A do it yourself WiFi cloud
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02/24/10 | Report as spam
Merdiven Korkuluk
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02/24/10 | Report as spam
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02/24/10 | Report as spam
RE: A do it yourself WiFi cloud
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03/03/10 | Report as spam
Electric Bed
Great postings. I hope to read more from you.
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03/03/10 | Report as spam
RE: A do it yourself WiFi cloud
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03/03/10 | Report as spam
RE: A do it yourself WiFi cloud
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03/03/10 | Report as spam
RE: A do it yourself WiFi cloud
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03/05/10 | Report as spam
RE: A do it yourself WiFi cloud
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03/05/10 | Report as spam
RE: A do it yourself WiFi cloud
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03/05/10 | Report as spam
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03/09/10 | Report as spam
RE: A do it yourself WiFi cloud
This idea is based on the false belief that it costs little or nothing to "move bits around", implying that there was no startup cost and no ongoing maintenance
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03/10/10 | Report as spam
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03/15/10 | Report as spam
RE: A do it yourself WiFi cloud
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Following is a modest proposal to the makers of Wi-Fi routers.
