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09/18/09 | Report as spam
RE: $20 a gallon gasoline: bring it on!
Stupid, just plain stupid! I hope your church services this weekend go well as you worship the god of sustainability.
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09/18/09 | Report as spam
RE: $20 a gallon gasoline: bring it on!
Some is smoking crack here. Yes, we need innovation, but I am not willing to wait for $20 gas. I don't want us all to be cramp in large cities. We have and enjoy freedom in America. Few things make you feel more free than to drive across country. In foreign travel books, America is the one country always recommended that someone drives because it is enjoyable. No one ever recommends driving through China. What is so wrong with our way of life that we can't work at ways to maintain it?
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09/18/09 | Report as spam
RE: $20 a gallon gasoline: bring it on!
Shut up and drill.
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09/18/09 | Report as spam
RE: $20 a gallon gasoline: bring it on!
Let's cut off everyone's thumbs as well. This may be painful but will stimulate innovation.
If you have to manipulate the environment to get the results YOU are seeking, then there is an issue.
If you believe in Freedom, then you already know that you do not have the right to force others to pay more to achieve the outcomes you desire. You are taking from me to achieve YOUR vision of the future, and that is criminal.
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09/18/09 | Report as spam
RE: $20 a gallon gasoline: bring it on!
Instead of a blathering rant about how much you love high prices and your assumption that high prices induce innovation (which is not always true), why don't you provide an itemization of the "pain" instead of generalizing?
Here are a couple of examples of the pain:
Pain 1. When people can't afford to go to work, what happens next?
Is the answer higher and higher taxes? This will lead to nothing but state control, because that is the only path it can take.
Pain 2. Who will pay these taxes? The rich? Taxes have a limit - it is called 100%.
Pain 3. Who will innovate if the incentive is only to pay more taxes? Can the state really force people to innovate?
Pain 4. The higher the taxes, the higher the costs to people who buy the products and services. To avoid this the state must control production, prices and limit innovation. Innovation is not conducive to central planning and central control of production.
Pain 5: If the state becomes the producer, you get limited or no choice - of anything!
Pain 6: If the state controls production the state will decide who works, where they work, when they work and what they work at. How do you propose to extract innovation from that?
Pain 7 In any country only a relatively few are "rich", that is, until they are taxed into the equality of poverty, But until then, who do you think will suffer the most at your $20/gallon. (Hint: if you say the middle class, you get an F)
Pain 8 and beyond: Time for you to respond.
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09/18/09 | Report as spam
What future?
All change is painful.
We can't continue to use oil the way we do today, so we will have to change or die.
And actually, installing those solar panels will effect your lives in a reduced oil world. You'll have a source of income as you sell power to your neighbors.
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09/18/09 | Report as spam
Electric cars oil independance
I am sick to death of irrational clamour for electric vehicles, like they
are some silver bullet to our problems.
I have read conflicting studies regarding which consumes more fossil
fuels (a gas or an electric vehicle) but in general, an electric car will
consume a great deal of fossil fuels, possibly more than an mass-
equivalent diesel car.
According to wiki, in 2007 72% of electricity was generated by fossil
fuels. Granted, 48% is coal and not oil, but an electric car will definitely spew tons of carbon just like a gas powered car, possibly
more carbon per mile.
The real problem is not which way we use feuls; direct gasoline, natural
gas, or electricity. The real problem is how much fuel we use - our
general attitude about our "right" to consume as much as we do on a
daily basis. Do we all need to take hot showers every day? Do we all
need to drive our cars to work/church/grocery/vacation? Do we all need
to mow our lawns?
These are the tough questions that should be dealt with. Electric cars
will not be as beneficial as some would have us believe...
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8
09/18/09 | Report as spam
RE: $20 a gallon gasoline: bring it on!
Hey guys.....WAKE UP....can you step outside yourselves for just a moment and witness the sheer dumbassery on display here...hummm?
"Walkable lives"? sounds really pre-19th century...."more vibrant cities"?...modern cities require LOTs and LOTs of fuel to be "vibrant"...large vibrant cities would necessarily die.
A hydrogen/nuclear/electric economy will eventually be the rule of the day, maybe in 20-30 years, maybe, the technology just doesn't exist today...and won't exist week for that matter...and when it is ready, it will take a massive, herculean effort to prepare infrastructure for mass delivery. In the mean time, drilling for new oil like there's no tomorrow and nuclear power IS the short term answer.
Artificially raising energy prices (cap and trade loonacy) will never get this job done. Let innovation and markets work guys....it will, I promise.
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09/18/09 | Report as spam
RE: $20 a gallon gasoline: bring it on!
In london uk there is a paid for congestion zone (toll charge) which is supposed to lessen traffic during 07:00-18:00 it costs ?8 (?15) with very heavy penalty for none payment. my brother remarked when first brought out that it will enable him to travel to his well paid job by car insead of public transport as all the lower paid workers would not be able to afford the charge so having to leave cars at home and the roads would be much clearer for him.No newspaper printed his letters about this before zone was started.The same thing will happen at $20 level it is the well off that control gas prices.
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09/18/09 | Report as spam
RE: $20 a gallon gasoline: bring it on!
this is without a doubt the dumbest thing I will read today.
I work for a furniture manufacturer, if gas hits $20 no one could afford to buy our furniture, because we would have to increase the price of the furniture to cover the drastic increase in shipping.
we would not be the only ones, everyone would have to increase their prices. you are talking about putting people out of work. you are talking about a depression, not a recession. I mean, really, this is just not well thought out.
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09/18/09 | Report as spam
RE: $20 a gallon gasoline: bring it on!
Let's see... the author of the book lives in a metro area---plenty of access to public transportation---not like the rest of us. Great reason to laud the book. Also, this rush to bio fuels... Corn seems to be the one mentioned. Are you ready to pay LOTS for food? Corn products that we directly eat, and secondary products such as chicken, beef, dairy products, and fish will skyrocket. Why you may ask? Well, there is just so much land area to farm. If the grain is sold at a subsidized higher price as a fuel-----where will the food equivalent come from? This has already happened in some parts of the world. The poor will be hurt the most by this policy. But remember----it's green.
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09/18/09 | Report as spam
RE: $20 a gallon gasoline: bring it on!
Here is a good example of why Solar is a pipe dream.
I just got a quote to install Solar on my 1500 sq foot house that would make me " Self-Sustainable" and be able to sell power back to Edison. Sounds good right? Well the Quote was for $80,000.00, and that was with all the Goverment and local Rebates. Let me see, if my monthly electric bill averages $110.00 per month x 12 months thats $1320 a year in energy costs. (Oh by the way $38.00 of the $110.00 per month is actual "Kilowatts Used" the rest of my bill is taxes and fees)
That means it will take me 50 - 60 years to recover my cost of "Going Solar" dependig on how much power i sell back.
I don't know about the rest of you, but I can't wait that long.
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09/18/09 | Report as spam
Right on
I feel that pain will be a source of innovation. GM and Ford both had electric vehicles, but there was no pain in the consumers wallet... and they killed them off. Could have been a great source of innovation and forethought, but without demand they didn't see the need. Hindsight...
While I do agree with electricity production and it's use of fossil fuels, the innovation in one industry (electric autos) will aid in consumers' home use of fossil fuels. Better batteries, solar assist on vehicles and such can't help but translate into a more sustainable home that is less dependent on coal burning for example. It appears that most of the respondents still have the head stuck in the (Saudi) sand mentality. A real shame that you dismiss the inevitable so quickly as you cling to ancient technology and greedy self-pandering. The book is meant to serve as tool for changing your thinking - it's time to move on and wake up!
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09/18/09 | Report as spam
RE: $20 a gallon gasoline: bring it on!
The topic is great for stimulating discussion, but please remember: all
such discussions that occur under the presumption that economic
forces won't apply are simply lip-flapping.
As just one example: $20/gallon gas would force a lot of things, such
as multiple iterations of New York City and the complete destruction of
most medium- and small urban areas. While NYC is a nice place to
visit, it's also a place where it's quite hard to find a quality home at
anything like a reasonable price.
(It also requires a way of life that most Americans purposefully choose
to avoid, but that's outside the economic argument.)
Assumptions about trivially replacing oil with corn biofuels require
complete ignorance of the observed and grim economic realities that
we've seen over just the last few years. Corn's an awful replacement for
oil.
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09/18/09 | Report as spam
RE: $20 a gallon gasoline: bring it on!
i am ceratin that things would change, and in time, the population will evolve into this new world, whatever it might be. predicting the future is chancy at best
however, the author has forgotten somethings. transportaion will die. that means that all that we really need to consume will not be available; food,clothing, all the other things that we need, really need to live will disapper. not only will they not be able to get to us after being made, they will not be able to be made because the raw materials will not get to the makers. we will quickly go back to a frontier existence. you eat what you grow or hunt, if you live where you can do either. you ride horses and wagons if you can raise the horses and learn how to build the wagons.
this will effectively stop international trade, no more chinese imports.
and of course there will be no twenty dollars to buy the gasoline because there will be no money and no gasoline.
i know we survived the 1700s and 1800s, but can our present population do that both because of its size and its lack of survival knowledge.
send the book back to the author and ask him to realistically answer the questions
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09/18/09 | Report as spam
RE: $20 a gallon gasoline: bring it on!
"At $14 a gallon, Wal-Mart is done. It can?t afford to ship products,? says the WBUR teaser for Steiner?s airing on WBUR?s On Point show."
Yes. And 500 Mom & Pop Stores will materialize where the Wal-Marts
once stood. But they won't incur any shipping costs because everything
will hand-crafted by local artisans. Nothing will be made of plastic. Almost
everything will be made of wood, a renewable resource. But it won't
be renewed fast enough, so forest areas will be de-nuded. Populations
will migrate to other forested areas. Sources of potable water will be
fouled because these areas will not have the infrastructure to handle
our waste. We will be ruled by rough men with guns. Good luck selling
your neighbor electricity.
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09/18/09 | Report as spam
RE: $20 a gallon gasoline: bring it on!
Interesting comments. I especially like the one that accuses someone of "manipulating the environment" by innovating. Talk about manipulating the environment - how about setting up massive rigs that drill deep into the earth, then pulling out a black, viscous liquid, which has to be further manipulated in huge refineries, before we consume it in various ways that adversely affect our environment. Even if we drill more, we are well past the peak oil point (for you wikipedians, see the subjects Hubbert Peak and peak oil).
The whole point of the article and the interview is that the reality of rising oil prices will drive innovation. That is as all-American as it gets. We are a nation of inventors and innovators.
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09/18/09 | Report as spam
RE: $20 a gallon gasoline: bring it on!
What are we going to do about carbon-fibre? It is currently made from oil. So if you buy that EV car that is light and sleek because it is made from carbon-fibre, then you are not lowering your carbon footprint at all.
I still say if you want to go green buy a used car and convert it to EV.
(Mike)
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09/18/09 | Report as spam
You're right.
But frankly, this holier than thou crap sickens me.
Let's face it; in many urban areas the poorer you are the more difficult it is to afford a home on a good bus route, near a grocery store, or near a job that you can walk or bike to.
What astounds me is the idea of "choice" and "I told you so," running through these posts. When it comes to energy, "choice" is limited, esp. when you get outside of eco-friendly places. If I found a place to live that allowed me to walk to work, it wouldn't allow me to walk to the grocery store, or the doctor's office. So, a little less "I told you so" and a few more suggestions as to how to manage in areas that aren't hip to a green vibe would be WAY more useful.
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09/18/09 | Report as spam
Lay off the crack pipe
Yes we need innovation, yes we need to cut down on oil consumption but please. You live on $10 an hour or SSI in today's world let alone the one you are proposing.
Sure gas at $20 a gallon would cut down driving but what do you think it will do to everyday living. Can you afford $40 for a gallon of milk, $10 for a loaf of bread, or $30 for that McDonalds value meal on your current earnings? If so then good for you but for the other 98% of the US population, we can?t.
Your goals and desires are admirable. We as a country definitely need to wean ourselves from oil, exponentially so for foreign oil. Gas at $20 a gallon would definitely spur research into alternative energy sources but do you really think those businesses who are coming up with alternatives are doing out of the goodness of their own hearts? NO, they are businesses and they are in the business of making money. They are looking for a solution that can be monetized. If you are accustomed to paying $20 a gallon then theses alternative energy businesses are going to try to come in less than that but at as high of a profit as possible. Yes competition will help drive prices down some but it will only do so much and in an economy where the cost of living has been turned on its head there will only be so much that can be done. Did you not feel the pinch at the grocery store the last time gas prices shot up so high? Grocery prices when up quickly and significantly. Just how quickly did they come back down after gas prices went back down? Grocery prices did go down but MUCH slower than they went up and they are still higher than they were initially.
Any alternative fuel (solar, wind, algae, hydrogen, natural gas, ??) needs to be able to compete in today?s market. Not one that is horribly inflated. How about promoting government reform and accountability? Make the politicians (both parties) responsible for the bills and budgets they pass. If we reformed government spending we could more than adequately subsidize alternative fuel development. Solutions that once developed could stand on their own (no further subsidies) and be competitive in today?s market. Perhaps pay a large bonus for self sustaining solutions such as wind or solar to discourage trading one vice (gas) for another consumable based solution (hydrogen, ethanol, etc).
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09/18/09 | Report as spam
RE: $20 a gallon gasoline: bring it on!
Wow. I'm amazed that more Americans are waking and realizing that this green movement is nothing but a sham.
While I agree that we need to find alternate energy sources, folks, let's not do it for the sake of "climate change". The climate will always change because of the SUN.
Do it because we need to be independent from foreign energy.
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09/18/09 | Report as spam
RE: $20 a gallon gasoline: bring it on!
There's really no reason to waste one's time reading this guy's book. He's really just stating the obvious, as far as I'm concerned. Yes, "supply and demand" is alive and well in the economy, as always. Yes, if oil gets scarce enough, prices will rise until they reach a point where it's un-sustainable to keep purchasing gasoline for use in the ways we now use it. So what?
1. We don't even know for a fact that the oil is "running out". More than one study claims that formerly emptied oil wells have refilled themselves over time. This *could* mean that oil is actually being created deeper down in the earth than we initially thought, and it slowly seeps up and pools in certain spots? It could also mean that it doesn't work that way at all, BUT we have more oil in the ground than we realize, and occasionally, some of it makes its way through cracks in the earth's crust, causing it to leak into pockets we pumped oil out of before?
2. Assuming the oil really *is* starting to run out, fine. It won't hit $20/gallon overnight (without govt. fixing the prices or meddling somehow). It will simply see a gradual increase in price, at a slightly faster pace than inflation. That means as it hits certain dollar figures, alternatives will suddenly make economic sense and will get rolled out to the public in new vehicles, new methods of production, etc. (As just one example, there's really no reason we NEED asphalt for roads and pavement. We use it only because it's cheaper than concrete, which lasts longer and works better for the purpose anyway. If the oil in asphalt starts making it cost more? People will make the obvious switch to concrete, and the increased demand for concrete will probably drive its price downward a bit in the process.)
3. IMHO, all of this "Green initiative" is a load of "feel good" B.S. and pseudo-science. In reality, basic forces of nature and forces of a free marketplace will determine the outcomes of all of this stuff. We cause more trouble than we solve when we try to manipulate these BROAD issues with legislation and forced lifestyle changes. Global warming/climate change, for example? Huge political hot-button topic causing redirecting of billions of dollars with new taxes, rules, etc. etc. But in the long-run, people aren't even sure this climate change isn't just a part of a natural weather cycle the planet is supposed to go through. If it isn't, and we really ARE causing some of it with our pollution? I'm not even convinced the "worst case scenarios" are so unmanageable. Without ANY human intervention, in the past, entire *continents* were formed when land masses broke apart and drifted, and here we're all worked up over water flooding the extreme EDGES of our land and some ice melting. Said ice may not have even originally been on the planet anyway, until it wound up a left-over of a previous ice-age. Better to spend our money and efforts handling the changes we'll experience than blowing it on "carbon credits" and other nonsense that lines of pockets of the schemers creating the things.
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09/18/09 | Report as spam
We're already using solar...
We're already using solar! It's stored in the form of oil and natural gas from plant life grown millions of years ago, by *solar*. You want to just not use this, just throw this away? !! ?? Why?
The thing not being said here is turning off this stored solar will have some very bad consequences. So, let's look at the entire picture of vastly increasing energy costs to the order of $20 / gallon.
When people can't afford energy anymore, they have to turn down the heat in winters and turn off air conditioning in summers. Right now energy is relatively cheap.
If we jump the price of fossil fuelds way up, these people will die. Typically it is old people who go first.
I'm sorry to be so blunt, but that's the truth.
If you think I'm kidding, then you've never spent a summer in Houston or a winter in Minneapolis.
A whole *bunch* of people will die in many ways. We are keeping 6 billion of them alive by using fossil fuels=stored solar in many ways. (Now we're going to throw a monkey wrench into that with a massive tax. "Cap and Trade" might as well be called"Coffin Made". If that passes, invest in funeral homes before the winter of '09.)
They'll die for different reasons. Without cheap energy, we can't make nitrogen-fixed fertilizers. Good-bye, inexpensive foods.
Grocery stores typically have about 72 hours of food in them and are supplied "Just In Time" (JIT) by all those fossil-fueled diesel trucks. Stores already run out when roads are impassable during snowstorms, etc. So how will you transport food? You're talking about turning off trucking permanently. Is your solution just not growing food to begin with?
Electric cars? Fine and good, but how do we charge them? Where do we get the electricity? From more coal fired power plants? Not so good for many reasons, including all the crap they kick into the sky. Bear in mind that the Chinese are bringing a new coal-fired plant online one per month.
The coal digging unions (and understandably, it's their job) like coal-fired plants and protest against nuclear power, with the effective tactic of radiation scare, and they played a big role in getting the current Congress and Administration elected, so we can forget going nuclear for another four years.
Nuclear power? Good. We frankly should go to the French and ask for help on this. They use one basic design and they have all the bugs worked out of it. Someone trained to run one plant is trained for all of them. They get 80% of their energy this way. The French *sell* energy. We would love to be in the position France is in! If we decided to, we could be there in 10 years.
All of our nuclear plants are different, and they are getting mighty old. What about nuclear waste? The French *recycle* their fuel rods and get more energy out of them! After recycling, what's left is very small compared to us. That's because we do the dumb thing, and just plonk the used rods into water, and waste all the energy in them.
How will all this possibly lead to "more vibrant cities"? What do you mean by a "vibrant" city? Without city to city transportation, goodbye touring acts, opera, plays, bands. Without trucking, what is there going to be in the city, that I can't even get to, that will be in the closer mall? Remember that American cities were laid out for car transportation.
I don't think you've driven around in Texas, for example, where it's common to see signs that say the next town is 150 miles away. I used to do the Austin to Denver trip a bunch. In an electric car that's a bunch of recharges. Or do you have a better idea?
"More walkable lives" ? Thank you for forcing me to walk, which is what you're really saying. You're young and don't know what it's like to *have to walk* with a bad knee.
"Cleaner environments". Hmmm. Unless you're willing to support nuclear, I just don't see how. Energy is energy. This issue has split the environment movement between the "feel-good" people and the "practical" people. But here's the deal.
Burn one "coal" atom, you get about 1 "electron volts" of energy in the flame.
Burn one uranium atorm, you get 200 million electron volts of energy. That's a whole fricking bunch of energy!
So, to get 200 million electron volts, you must dig up 200 million coal atoms, which is a bunch, and burn them, making a whole pile of carbon dioxide, and dump it into the atmosphere. (Carbon + 2 Oxygens = CO-2 or Carbon Dioxide). We've been doing this a long time and made a vast ocean of carbon dioxide.
If you're worried about radiation, coal is riddled with radioactives, and they get dumped into the atmosphere right along with the coal, but that doesn't release their 200 million volts. It just cruds the atmosphere up more.
It takes energy to clean up the environment, to build public transportation, and whatnot. Where are you going to get it?
Be careful about working to get your dreams, for, remember some of your dreams? Some are nightmares.
Thanks,
Dave
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09/18/09 | Report as spam
Oil Is EVIL!!!!
Let's see if I can make sense of this whole thing??? Oil is black and therefore it is EVIL! Carbon is black and therefore it is EVIL! So Black is BAD/EVIL and Green is Good/Perfect??? Ummm?? OK, uh, volcanos spew out black stuff and therefore they are EVIL? Uh, air is supposed to be clear so it is Good. And, uh, water is supposed to be clear so it is Good?
OK, now where the water and air are not clear, that place is Evil? Smoke and Oil spills make the air and water bad in certain places so those places are Evil. Hmmm?? Am I getting anywhere? Now those places where Smoke and Oil spills exist are mostly around people therefore people are Evil? People are making this planet Bad so all people are Evil! I think that solves it. Let's get rid of all of the people so the earth can stay Green. I think that makes sense. Without people this planet would be a much Greener place.
This all made sense right?
It made about as much sense as this article and most of this website. Come on people! Wake up and smell the burn of diesel fuel. Wake up and drill more wells so we don't have to use Evil Saudi Oil. We have plenty of it here in this great country. I've seen the devastation that drilling has done to our environment. NOT!!! I live in a state where there are thousands upon thousands of oil wells and it has left the our state a desolate waste land. NOT!!!
I love the smell of diesel fuel in the morning. You know what I call that? VICTORY! LIFE! FREEDOM! And the PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS!
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09/18/09 | Report as spam
Let's All Start Subsistance Farming With Oxen
There seems to be a few people out there like Mr. Steiner that are, well, just out there. Mr. Steiner and his metro-economy culture simply want everyone to adopt their view of how life should be lived. I LIKE TO DRIVE, fast, and a lot. I always will. If Mr. Steiner wants to live in the city and walk everywhere, fine. But I like to live in rural America and drive. The only acceptable solution for me is one where I can continue to drive. So give me the keys to a 110mph solar car and I will be happy.
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09/18/09 | Report as spam
RE: $20 a gallon gasoline: bring it on!
I live in England and gasoline is now over 1 GBP for a litre. A gallon is
4.5 litres roughly. A US dollar is around 60p. That makes gasoline
around $10 a gallon - we survived! You will learn to drive smaller cars;
use less gasoline by careful driving. Use less by only doing essential
journeys and maybe even legislate on the durability of consumer goods
that use oil products in their manufacture. Maybe legislate for a 5 year
warranty on ALL consumer products - that would get rid of some crap!
the tax raised by an immediate tax on gasoline would get the US
government out of debt and ave the economy. Interest rates can go up
again ad savers can get decent return again - especially the baby boom
generation who have saved all their lives and who VOTE!
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27
09/18/09 | Report as spam
RE: $20 a gallon gasoline: bring it on!
Dave Tracer: Awesome points on French/Nuclear... I totally agree
nuclear is our best option for cleaner energy. Wind/Solar are never
gonna give us what we want, let alone what we need.
Mike106: Life is USA is pretty different from life in Europe - yes I have
spent some time in Europe; my wife was from Romania and I have
traveled abroad. Here in USA, _everything_ is totally spread out;
schools, library, home, work, food, hardware, you name it. My
nearest grocer is 6 miles from my house. I go about 4x/week for fresh
foods - I have bad knee no way can I practically walk that distance that
often. Most ppl drive 30, 45, even 60 minutes 1-way to work everyday.
Sorry but our country was built up around the assumption of cheap
energy for the past 6+ decades! It could take 6+decades for us to
reverse our infrastructure, not 6 years!
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09/18/09 | Report as spam
RE: $20 a gallon gasoline: bring it on!
One of the writers above state: "affect our environment. Even if we drill more, we are well past the peak oil point (for you wikipedians, see the subjects Hubbert Peak and peak oil).
The whole point of the article and the interview is that the reality of rising oil prices will drive innovation. That is as all-American as it gets. We are a nation of inventors and innovators."
Do you even *KNOW* what the Hubbert Peak is? It is *NOT* the point where the quantity of oil in the ground peaks. It is the point where the easiest to gather oil in the ground peaks. So the Hubbert Peak is the point where we begin to run out of the "low hanging fruit" of oil. There's more oil in the ground...in fact more than we could possibly use...it's just going to get harder to get to it!
As for the English dude above who claims that England is making due with $10/gallon gasoline...Of course England can make it on $10/gal gasoline...the entirety of the british isles can fit in the state of Texas! In the United States, it's not unusual for vacationers to drive several thousand miles, or workers to cross several states to get to work (where I live, this happens frequently...people living in West Virginia, crossing Virginia, Maryland to work in Pennsylvania, or people living in Pennsylvania crossing maryland to work in virginia) these twice daily commutes are 100-150 miles each way! Try *THAT* on $10/gal gasoline!
Ed
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09/18/09 | Report as spam
RE: $20 a gallon gasoline: bring it on!
Who is going to do what with the additional $17/gal.
The government start another war?
The politicians buy more votes?
The clergy help those who will not help themselves?
The oil companies do good works? 1 Billion dollar bonus anyone.
Third world countries buy more armaments?
Duh, the answer seems to elude me.
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09/18/09 | Report as spam
You haven't read Predictably Irrational
This is old school thinking. And has been scientifically proven not to work. Read the brilliant book, "Predictably Irrational" which shows clearly how price increases only influence people for a very short time, and then it's back to normal.
Your science, in other words, needs updating.
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09/18/09 | Report as spam
I love it when the audience is smarter than the "professor"
It's not very hard to believe that when it comes to the topic at hand that the intended audience is much smarter and has much more common sense and has a lot more and better ideas than the author of the stupid book referenced above. Likewise, the audience has also taken the author of the article above to school. Stupidity deserves to be called exactly what it is. Asinine ideas such as the ones in the book mentioned above belong only in the minds of those who have the same kind of brain capacity as a worm.
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RE: $20 a gallon gasoline: bring it on!
In Post #8, Starman said: "modern cities require LOTs and LOTs of fuel to be "vibrant"...large vibrant cities would necessarily die." If you need any more proof of that, just look at the cities of the Incas, the Mayans, the Anasazi, or the "Mound Builders" of the central U.S. And that's only in the Western Hemisphere!
One of the "Big 3" sci-fi writers (Asimov, Clarke, or Heinlein) wrote many years ago that there would be three final wars. The first would be over energy, the second over arable land, and the final over potable water. We have had the start of the first (but not the end), so how far off are the others?
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09/18/09 | Report as spam
JTF243@...How long before we can travel at warp speed?
Some of the best science fiction was/is written by people with great science backgrounds. But, the key word in the writing is "sci-fi". In other words, not real.
So, using you "sci-fi" logic, tell me, how soon do you think before we are able to travel at faster than the speed of light? How soon before we can construct the "wormholes" and shoot our way into the past?
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34
09/18/09 | Report as spam
Moron
Think about all the other real needs like drugs and how much they will go up. What an idiot!
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35
09/19/09 | Report as spam
RE: $20 a gallon gasoline: bring it on!
I'm going to agree with and back up the Englishman here. I'm an expat living in Germany for the last 20 years. Since I've lived here, everything has been at least 2-4 times the cost of living in America, including electricity, water, and gas.
You adapt quickly to this, and learn to live with less, and be more energy and resource conscious and efficient. Efficiency is the keyword here, and needs to be at the forefront of any discussion.
As this discussion centers around the statement or wish of $20/gal gas, my opinion is that it's doable without the "pain" that some of the people here subscribe to. The secret is squeezing as much efficiency from gas, it's byproducts, manufacturing, delivery and usage as much as possible.
Forget about the environmental benefits and "green" BS. Concentrate on the technology advances, research, and business/job opportunities that will arise from finding solutions to creating products and gas from miniscule amounts of the resource, that being oil.
Regarding personal lifestyle changes and adaptation, no one should claim, that jumping into a car and driving 10, 6 or even 1 mile to a 7-11 to buy chips, a six-pack, and a DVD, should EVER be equated with "freedom".
Freedom is a far more important concept and liberty, than to be degraded by such frivolous wasteful behavior, and making a claim to the right to do so in the name of "freedom".
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36
09/19/09 | Report as spam
RE: $20 a gallon gasoline: bring it on!
If this kind of hokum is typical of the thinking by smartplanet contributors, please cancel my membership. I don't have time for for such banality.
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37
09/19/09 | Report as spam
RE: $20 a gallon gasoline: bring it on!
Like the rest of the facist "environmental" socialists this wacko DOES want us back in caves. Alternate fuel tomorrow but for NOW DRILL BABY DRILL
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38
09/19/09 | Report as spam
RE: $20 a gallon gasoline: bring it on!
What an idiot. It is cheap, plentiful energy that drives growth and prosperity. Look at history. high cost energy, simply stifles growth. If he wants to go back to the middle ages fine he has the freedom to live that lifestyle. There were people in the late 60's and 70's that predicted that the world could not sustain todays population. They were wrong too. Even the commie Chinese are embracing capitalism, to some extent and building new energy sources to sustain them. I say build more nuclear now, achieve energy independence on the electric front, then maybe electric cars for some, not all will be feasible. (Limitations on electric car range does not fit with some peoples driving needs.)
If energy was cheaper right now, and gasolinge prices were cut, the recession/depression would end practically overnight. Now that would be a real stimulus.
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39
09/19/09 | Report as spam
RE: $20 a gallon gasoline: bring it on!
Watching video reminds me that a mind is a terrible thing to waste. He is the poster boy for a mind on drugs.
Injecting an engineer joke because I am one (ChE.)
What is the difference between a mechanical engineer and a civil engineer (Like this idiot)?
A mechanical engineer builds weapons, a civil engineer builds targets.
This idiot is looking to bring us down to the level of the Taliban et al.
I wouldn't shake his left hand if he is already practicing what he preaches.
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40
09/19/09 | Report as spam
RE: $20 a gallon gasoline: bring it on!
Take precautions before owning hybrid technology as well. Batteries can cost in excess of 3,0000 dollars to replace. I wish eveyone had the incomes of these dreamers as well. Something to be said for all the technology we have now, it sure has helped the employment and the economy...... NOT!!!!! How could anyon possibly want more???
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41
09/19/09 | Report as spam
RE: $20 a gallon gasoline: bring it on!
Cleaner coal and oil burning technology should be explored now. These resources are still available (even in this country) and can be drilled and mined by American workers.Cap and traders wish to eliminate these valuable resources and all the employment which can be created under the guise of clean air. This is flawed due to foreign competition not adhering to the clean air mandates American companies have to adhere to (also a reason so many people are unemployed) and because the rest of the world pollutes we breathe the same dirty air that they produce. These greenies only promote unemployment and government subsistence. What a life!!!???
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42
09/19/09 | Report as spam
The best part about $20 oil would be...
...that it will mean the extinction of the brainless "progressives" who
contribute little more to our economy than sitting around computers writing
about how great $20 oil would be. Subsistence cultures have absolutely
no margin for people who don't contribute hard assets to the economy.
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43
09/19/09 | Report as spam
RE: $20 a gallon gasoline: bring it on!
The only good greenie is the one you can clear from your throat and nasal passages! Funny as it seems most replies are from people embracing computer technology but care little for your so called progressive thought. It's time you guys take a hint!!!
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44
09/19/09 | Report as spam
2 things
1. Hemp. It was vilified back in the day by JP Getty, Rockefeller etc because it was the most efficient source of energy there is. They wanted us hooked on what was at the time their biggest waste product: gasoline. They had been kerosene manufacturers and were basically dumping gasoline into the waterways.
BTW they also paid for the pro-prohibition movement because alcohol also competed with gasoline.
Nice huh? Our problems today all stem from pure greed, and stupid headed manipulation of markets that occurred over 100 years ago. Mind you prohibition had zero to do with drinking alcohol. Read the law, drinking wasn't illegal, manufacturing was.
2. I think if you check your facts we're not about to run out of conventional oil any time soon. They haven't tapped 1/10 of what's available on Alaska's north slope. Not that alternatives are undesirable, and burning and otherwise using crude oil should be obviated as soon as practicable, but there's no reason to panic.
I have to chuckle every time I see someone use the term "fossil fuels." One of the biggest wool-over-the-eyes hoaxes of a term ever.
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45
09/19/09 | Report as spam
RE: $20 a gallon gasoline: bring it on!
Sustainability can be easily obtained along with health care affordability by simply creating a hybrid industry which mines "crude oil" from the fat found in an obese population of people and pigs. The food industry could go back to producing more "twinkies", and the like. We could all sit around eating "happy meals" all day long and accomplish little else, the way we currently do. No one would ever be compelled to walk or go to the gym; in fact, the government could redistribute the wealth of lean people by taxing them to fund fat farms. You could get a "job" at one of these farms by becoming a domestic oil producer. Exxon/Mobile could open "service stations" where individuals who aren't "employed" by fat farms could get liposucked on their way to their civilian jobs. There could even be a an exchange discount when filling your vehicle if you have made a deposit of fat.
Far more feasible, profitable by design, as rediculous as anything written here, and oh yeah, Americans will find obesity stylish. Every thing will run on "Clean Diesel", that close relative of "Clean Coal".
Are all the brain damaged people in the world living in the USA??
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46
09/19/09 | Report as spam
Sir you are a regressive idiot
moron. Make all lefty nucases like you pay all the taxes since you love screwing the taxpayer so much. You want higher taxes then YOU PAY EM!.
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47
09/20/09 | Report as spam
RE: $20 a gallon gasoline: bring it on!
This is not going to happen. There are already
thirteen million vehicles in the world using LP
gas. The U.S. has plenty of natural gas. If
gasoline goes up so much, vehicles can be
retrofitted relatively cheaply to run on LP gas.
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48
09/21/09 | Report as spam
What a ludicrous prediction
We're on the verge of converting cellulose into ethanol on a mass production scale, and should be able to do so by 12/2010. Pilot plants are already successfully doing so. There are enough wood chips, grass clippings, and saltgrass available locally to supply all our needs. $3/gallon is more than enough to tip the scales in terms of economic viability.
Steiner needs to take the blinders off, stop ignoring evidence that says he's wrong, and recognize reality for what it is before it runs him over.
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49
09/21/09 | Report as spam
Enjoy starving to death
The ultimate effect of higher prices of oil is not how much it costs for soccer moms to run their kids to practice, it's how much does it cost to harvest an acre of wheat, to transport cattle to market, or to deliver your groceries to the store.
Of course, in your magic world that all just happens, right?
Farmers don't need to make money, truckers don't need to make money, as long as mother Gaia is ok.
Hooey!
Nobody is talking about the major infrastructure changes that need to happen, they just say things like;
"$20/gal gas is fine....pass the potatoes, oh there are no potatoes?"
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50
09/21/09 | Report as spam
RE: $20 a gallon gasoline: bring it on!
Morons!
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51
09/21/09 | Report as spam
LostRepublican
Someone needs to take this guy out back and smack him around a bit. Calling for the destruction of our way of life is nuts. Instead, let's migrate to new sources of energy over the next 30-40 years.
I don't feel bad about enjoying my vehicle. I don't feel bad about running a boat. I don't feel bad about taking airplanes to faraway places. I do NOT feel bad about chasing the American dream. I refuse to feel bad for living life.
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52
09/21/09 | Report as spam
RE: $20 a gallon gasoline: bring it on!
I say drill as much as possible and use it all up as quickly as possible. Need is the mother of invention and until we HAVE to do something else we simply won't do anything else.
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53
09/21/09 | Report as spam
Truly Pathetic !
I want some of that ZDNET Koolaid ! WOW.
Now the facts. CO2 is not even a pollutant. The world is cooling and will be for the next 3 decades. Scientist after scientist is coming out and speaking against "global warming". We have tremendous reserves of natural gas and oil here in the US. What a powerhouse we would be if we drilled for it instead of shipping it in. There are eco-friendly ways to drill for oil.
If gas was that expensive no one would go to work. Great. May be we could all get bail-outs ! This article is probably the worst piece of journalism I have ever seen...but then there isn't much good journalism these days.
It will take time to go to newer technologies but nothing comes without a price. Batteries need metal. Wind and solar farms need a lot of land to build. There is no magic carpet out there although I suspect some of these writers are on one now......
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54
09/21/09 | Report as spam
RE: $20 a gallon gasoline: bring it on!
Apparently a lot of people did not read the book or watch the interview...
While I think the author's premise for his book is not likely in the near term .........
I remember getting gas for $0.18 gal in 1970.. and if someone said I would be paying $2 gal... it would have gotten a response similar to those stated above.
The conversations created with "$20/gal" are similar to :
- population control ( population grows to match resources available)
- "fallacy of the commons".. resource control vs common good
- HOW MANY PEOPLE ON PLANET vs freedom of individual?
(More people alive today than ALL people of recorded history combined ....Last 10,000 years vs today)
- present population level cannot survive without Oil.
And as fast as technology can change.. we can make people faster.
His point .. as this resource becomes more expensive (for what ever reason )... life styles (everything) will change...
Duh
The only real questions ...
how fast the change? how much the change?
Change is inevitable... the interesting part is the details.
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55
09/21/09 | Report as spam
RE: $20 a gallon gasoline: bring it on!
Where do I begin, where do I end!? .....
I'll just throw a couple things out:
1) Gas went to $4.50 a gallon, and the economy all but collapsed.
2) OK, OK, I know it was about the housing collapse, and all the bad loans. - Well if gas is $20/gallon it'll cost me $2,500 a month to heat my house and $50 a day to drive to work, I'll either quit my job, get fired, or live in a box outside of my office, I'll just abandon my house (along with all my neighbors out in the high-tax, big-mortgage, expansive burbs) The banks will go broke along with the entire federal, state and local government.
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56
09/22/09 | Report as spam
RE: $20 a gallon gasoline: bring it on!
OK, you're going to read it on your *Kindle* (which cost more than
most people in my country would see in several years) which is
made of plastic, uses batteries (probably Lithium-Ion, several times
more toxic than lead, but for some reason no one seems to care...)
that recharge from electricity probably generated from coal, which
also powers the computer you use to browse Amazon to buy the
Kindle and download books.
And you're worried about excessive energy use and sustainability?
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57
09/22/09 | Report as spam
RE: $20 a gallon gasoline: bring it on!
Ok, ok...do I want to pay $20 a gallon for gas? No, of course not. I was taking license with the headline, but it got your attention.
My primary point is when the price of gas goes down, we get complacent and throttle back on innovation and committment to oil alternatives. Fortunately this time around thanks to a new team in Washington, we're continuing to forge ahead on renew-ables even with low gas prices.
A secondary point was a world with less oil can be a good thing, not the end of civilization as we know it. A future without oil could be better than one with it. A few of you who commented got that. Many of you went off the deep end, got mad and said drill some more...that simply is not the answer to anything.
What kills me is that many of the fools who want to drill, drill and drill also think Obama is hijacking our children's future with debt. But the money he is spending on the smart grid and renewables is investing in our children's future (he also helped save the global economy, BTW).
To those who really struggle economically, I have great sympathy. Heating your home should be a right, not a privilege. The sooner we figure our a non oil way to that, the better off we'll all be.
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58
09/22/09 | Report as spam
RE: $20 a gallon gasoline: bring it on!
Oil depletion is not going to get us where we need to go in terms of climate change and cutting GHG emissions - well before the price gets to $20, we'll see another big recession and substitutes (natural gas) - and the oil price will have little impact on power emissions.
Read more about oil-running out and other disaster scenarios on my blog http://climateinc.org especially http://climateinc.org/2009/09/the-age-of-wisdom/ and http://climateinc.org/2009/08/a-tale-of-two-meltdowns/
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59
09/23/09 | Report as spam
RE: $20 a gallon gasoline: bring it on!
Here's a crazy thought. Instead of making oil more expense so 'alternative' energies can 'compete', why don't the alternative energy companies focus on making their products' costs come down to meet oil? Then we'll have real innovation. Henry Ford didn't demand that horses cost $5000 dollars a pop to make his product competitive, instead he developed this thing called an assembly line that meant he could sell to the common man and compete with the existing technology on ITS price level, not an artificial one. Oh, and lets not forget, you want solar panel, until you actually have to build them, then they take up too much land and destroy ecosystems. You want wind farms, except when it comes time to build them, then they chop up birds and are an eyesore. You want biofuels, except, oh yeah, they require gasoline to produce and are more environmentally devastating than oil itself (fertilizer required, land used, etc.) and cause farmers to plow under wheat and other food crops. If and when these technologies are ready for prime time, then I'll be happy to adopt them, but never in the history of man has there been a need to force people to adopt a technology, technology gets adopted because it is better. People chose bronze over iron because it was lighter and more durable, not because of a government mandate. People chose cars over horses because they made their lives better and easier not because they were forced by artificial market conditions.
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60
09/23/09 | Report as spam
RE: Heating your home is a right now....
Heating your home is not a right, it is your responsibility to yourself. Heating, whether it is oil or some other source, is a commodity, just like with this asinine healthcare debate. Healthcare is a commodity, whether you like it or not. You can not simply ignore market realities because you want everyone to have their basic needs taken care of. You have the right to pursue happiness, not the right to automatic happiness.
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61
09/23/09 | Report as spam
RE: $20 a gallon gasoline: bring it on!
wbranch...I agree and disagree. Some people are simply unable to fend for themselves and role of government is to take care of them at a very basic level. That includes those who cannot afford commodities such a healthcare and oil as you put it.
What really gauls me is your comment "asinine healthcare debate." What planet do you spend most of your time on? That comment is beyond the pale. Our healthcare system is careening out of control. I guess we should just shut up and let that happen. C'mon...you've said some intelligent things here, but that is not one of them.
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62
09/24/09 | Report as spam
John, where in the constitution do you find that?
You said: "Some people are simply unable to fend for themselves and
role of government is to take care of them at a very basic level."
Can you cite any constitutional reference for that?
In fact, I would even argue that people are already taken care of "at a
very basic level" in this country. Contrary to popular myth, nobody is
denied care in this country. In fact, that's part of the reason the bills for
those of us who do pay are so high.
What "really gauls me" are people who honestly believe that we can
implement Soviet-style central planning controls to solve these
problems, especially given the transparently corrupt nature of business
in Washington. You'd think that after the complete fraud that is the
Ethenol fiasco, we'd all be over this. But clearly not.
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63
09/24/09 | Report as spam
RE: $20 a gallon gasoline: bring it on!
Mr. McGrew and wbranch are by far the best replies to this blog. I wholeheartedly agree with them. People have forgotten how to take care of themselves and apparently now need an almost communist form of government to do it for them. The sadder part is that most even have no shame.
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64
09/24/09 | Report as spam
RE: $20 a gallon gasoline: bring it on!
That we take care of those who cannot fend for themselves is a good thing except that we could probably do it more efficiently w healthcare reform. And I am not talking about Soviet style central planning that lead to biggest famine in recorded history. No one is, but I do think government looks out for people who can't do it themselves. We are the only major industrial nation wo a public healthcare plan of some sort.
I'm am completely for personal responsibility and let's face it, such a proposition applies to 90 per cent of us.....
The constitution and what the founding fathers meant is so wide open to interpretation, it's a bit of moving target. The Supreme Court is still trying to figure it out.
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65
09/25/09 | Report as spam
Yeah!
I'm all for sustainability and innovation but hoping that gasoline prices rise
is madder than a bag of wet cats! I'm largely replying to enjoy the novelty
of being on the same side as the global warming deniers...
By the way, current UK price of a US gallon of petrol is roughly $6. It's
very amusing to hear someone referring to $5 / gallon as some
nightmarish post-apocalyptic scenario! But then, I don't have a car; that
might help me see the lighter side.
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66
09/25/09 | Report as spam
RE: $20 a gallon gasoline: bring it on!
Oil is both a precious resource and a damaging one. It is currently priced based on supply and demand, not the value of it benefits or the cost of its pollution. But a dramatic rise in price is way too disruptive. For the last 20 years I have be advocating a $0.25 yearly increase in the tax applied to gasoline to allow society to adjust and bring us on a par with Europe. If the gasoline cost falls, I would increase the tax so that the consumer price holds steady and we build long lasting preferences for alternatives and reduced consumption. $20 per gallon, I am not sure about that, but reaching $6-10 gradually would help us conserve oil for the long term future needs of the planet while reducing pollution.
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67
09/25/09 | Report as spam
No John, the Constitution is rather specific...
...and is not a ?moving target?. The only thing that moves are the
tactics that are used (by all parties) by those who see the Constitution
as a barrier to their statist goals. Nobody will or can state where the
Constitution authorizes a socialist health care system because it
simply does not exist. The idea would have been simply abhorrent to
the founders.
Of course, taking care of people would be ?a good thing?. But then
again, since when has the federal government demonstrated its ability
to do so without grave and disastrous consequences. In case you?ve
already forgotten, federal efforts over the last 30 years to make home
ownership affordable to poor people nearly collapsed the entire banking
system. Our Ethanol policy has been exposed for the economically
and environmentally disastrous program that it is; and yet instead of
killing it they?re working to expand it. The ?stimulus? was nothing more
than a pork-spending orgy. The ?cap-and-trade? bill is over 1400 pages
of special interest exemptions and give-aways. Just this morning I read
that as we print and borrow trillions from the Chinese Communists to
fund our spending orgy, we?re lending over half-a-billion dollars build
$90k sports cars. And you expect the same people behind these
corrupt, disastrous, and bankrupting agendas to do better with your
health care? The idea ?that we could probably do it more efficiently w
healthcare reform? would be simply laughable, if it weren?t so tragic.
So basically, what you are saying is that because 10% of Americans
are unable to take responsibility for themselves, we need to flush the
system for the 90% that do, and literally become slaves to the
government in the process? Well, that?s socialism for you! It?s never
elevated the masses, but it does tend to spread misery around equally.
Well, equally except for those who will be exempt. (Of all the Marxists
I knew when I was in school, I was always amused by how absolutely
none of them saw themselves as becoming one of the ?workers?)
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68
09/25/09 | Report as spam
RE: $20 a gallon gasoline: bring it on!
I agree with jday38. Drill here, drill now, pay less.
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69
10/03/09 | Report as spam
RE: $20 a gallon gasoline: bring it on!
I don't understand why nobody has addressed the issue of the inevitability of the rise to 20. Gas price per gallon didn't rise more than two dollars up or down per barrel until the new millennium. The price per gallon all through the eighties and nineties fluctuated around 22-25 dollars per gallon. Has anybody asked the question how the price of gas is determined? If you think it is a supply and demand equation your wrong. There is a couple of financial institutions that trade futures on oil as well as a couple of foreign agencies (ICE) who are now allowed to operate in the US. This has allowed the amount of options and the set price to spiral out of control. Pure speculation that has nothing to do with the Oil companies nor the supply of oil. If you really want to fix the issue ask why these processes are allowed to occur unchecked. Global warming has more to do with the tilt of the planet and water temperature then PPM of carbon. This is the easiest thing in the world. Limit the amount of options traded and the price they trade at and this all goes away. The annual per capita income 100 years from now is estimated at 90k. Today it is 8K globally. You think we will have a little more money and resources to deal with this issue then? Why are we breaking the bank now and forcing the Green Tech Crap era? Good luck!!
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70
10/14/09 | Report as spam
RE: $20 a gallon gasoline: bring it on!
Jeff Rubin a former CIBC economist has a book - Why your world is about to get a whole lot smaller. Like this fellow he flags how dependant we are on oil - There will be I believe a peak price for oil also. There are advantages to high oil - called local economies - When it becomes more expensive to ship long distances buying local becomes the economical choice. Something both these fellows miss is the wealth of resources we have locked away in our landfills.
With all the government debt in the world a carbon tax INMHO is what we need now - better the extra price go to paying down debt - adding services then lining oil companies pockets.
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71
10/28/09 | Report as spam
RE: $20 a gallon gasoline: bring it on!
:-S So expensive.
I think human have to change to use another power as water, wind and sun.
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72
11/11/09 | Report as spam
RE: $20 a gallon gasoline: bring it on!
Al Gore will smile 
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73
11/22/09 | Report as spam
RE: $20 a gallon gasoline: bring it on!
reading the moron hater comments, I had to re-watch the vid. the guy says the price of gas *WILL* go up. He does not say "make it go up" by padding it with an additional $17 of taxes. He says "it's coming".
Then he talks about two aspects, coping and benefiting. A lot of pain, some gain.
Giant corporations have benefitted by FREE government subsidies on transportation for infrastructure and fuel (including free military services to protect Exxon's freighters and various pipelines), creating an anti-Market disadvantage for smaller competitors --- read book entitled "Molloch" by Kevin Carson on the inefficiencies of "Sloanism" and government subsidies.
I cannot comprehend how this many people are so functionallly illiterate so as to confuse analysis and prediction of a fuel crisis (and his assertion that "it might not be so bad as most people think, but very different") with him ADVOCATING a fuel crisis gas --- as if he has the POWER to do so.
I'm not reading "science" responses --- this must have been Drudged or some such with everyone told to go and comment.
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74
11/22/09 | Report as spam
RE: $20 a gallon gasoline: bring it on!
@ #69 aeschylus
What you wrote on ICE and oil futures is on target. Wm. Engdahl has written some heavy analysis on it. One futures trading company opened up an office in London, after lobbying for the right of London-based brokers to trade on energy in NY ... bypassing the US financial regulatory system.
But the company is based in Chicago and Atlanta. What do you call that sleight of hand but fraud? It is like in the 1800s when some corporate owners convinced some legislatures to permit "holding companies" so they could (virtually) set up shop by re-incorporating in New Jersey or Delaware to jump over the state laws where they were located --- making corporations more powerful than States, and therefore above democracy.
Corporate Globalization is phase 2 of that, corporations already more powerful than nation-states, including America. Banking bailout?
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75
11/22/09 | Report as spam
RE: $20 a gallon gasoline: bring it on!
ecbo @54 jrlambert
AND --- Soviet-style controls? We've had that for a hundred years, ramping up more since WW2. It's called corporate welfare and the military-industrial complex ... now the military-industrial-security-communications-networking-infotainment etc. complex.
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76
11/26/09 | Report as spam
RE: $20 a gallon gasoline: bring it on!
never have i read so much rubbish most of these people have thier heads buried in the sand and are speaking from the highest orrifice.they need to get out of the office and look at the real world.
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77
02/08/10 | Report as spam
MuratCan
It is quite common that women usually have the desire to buy new jewelries which are seemed to be better than the old ones.
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