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11/10/09 | Report as spam
RE: Sweet smell of renewable energy
Great post ! These second generation bio fuel technologies are so much better than the first generation " food as fuel model " .
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11/10/09 | Report as spam
Using waste from food transformation is good.... but
In the search for new eco friendly ways to produce electrity, I am wondering if the burning of this waste is good of bad for the environment ?
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11/10/09 | Report as spam
RE: Sweet smell of renewable energy
I agree w/m.malo - would like to understand the environmental tradeoffs.
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11/10/09 | Report as spam
RE: Sweet smell of renewable energy
This is indeed hope for the future.
Anne
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11/10/09 | Report as spam
RE: Sweet smell of renewable energy
the absence of information about the waste gasses from burning the bagasse are telling.
kind of like advertising for prducts without a
price tag. it usually means you cannot afford it.
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6
11/10/09 | Report as spam
Excellent!
Now, can they use the waste heat in the steam for sugar processing before recycling it for the next pass through the boiler?
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11/10/09 | Report as spam
Questions
- Beyond burning waste material (no exploration/production costs), which means recycling something, where's the green part of this?
- Burning bagasse is the same as burning wood: Combustion produces CO2. No doubt. Looks not so green...
- Brazil pioneered the use of energy alternative sources since years ago: Alcohol-powered cars from sugar-can since the 70's. Bagasse burning is a kind of national sport, as no other material is so easy to get. Did you need an american company going there to discover all this? Too much LA-NY-D.C.-centered, guys...
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11/10/09 | Report as spam
RE: Sweet smell of renewable energy
I believe that burning bagasse as a cogeneration fuel in the production of electricity has been a sugar industry standard for many many years. As far as I am aware all of the sugar mills in North Queensland cogenerate using bagasse, and if I remember correctly, so did the ones in Jamaica- very old and inefficient units,I am sure, but where is the new technology? It is the same with oil palm facories in Papua new Guinea. QWhen I lived in Popondetta in PNG, the local oil palm factory cogenerated using the waste from the oil palm process.
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11/10/09 | Report as spam
RE: Sweet smell of renewable energy
Have to agree with raul62 and rolandallbrook, unless there has been a significant technological advance in the burning of bagasse this is old, inefficient, polluting technology. The main difference is the [national] grid for them to supply. In Guyana the excess power went as far as the village adjacent to the sugar mill.
Brazil's efforts at producing and using ethanol in cars should be the story here.
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11/11/09 | Report as spam
Water and quasi-renewable resources are essential too ...
but surprisingly omitted in this discussion. Nations, such as Brazil, lying within the ITCZ are geographically endowed for these endeavours: agricultural, hydropower, and distillation needs. Liquid fuel production for internal combustion is most of the impetus. I'm not sure of the figures but if engineered efficiently the production would likely be "energy positive" and resource neutral, that is, derived from quasi-renewable sources without using fossil fuels to produce an expendable fuel source. The corn-derived ethanol industry in the USA faces these hurdles (especially water shortages) and only survives on subsidies, grants, and capturing available methane from dung piles.
Mostly brainstorming this but nonetheless, IMHO, valid considerations.
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11/11/09 | Report as spam
So late?
I have seen this concept in operations across India around 20 years ago (still continues) and was under impression that this is common practice for most of sugar mills around the world. It may be worth understanding what took so long for sugar mills in Brazil to adopt this concept. It makes perfect financial sense to use sugar cane waste to generate energy.
BTW many sugar mills dont convert heat into electricity; they use it directly into their boilers to convert sugar juice into sugar.
I would also like to point out that burning this waste produces CO2; but that CO2 is again consumed by sugar plantation in next season. So it becomes carbon neutral.
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11/11/09 | Report as spam
RE: Sweet smell of renewable energy
This is not a new concept in Brazil at all... It had been done for
boiling purposes for over a couple of centuries. During the
colonization by the Portuguese, the bagasse was either used for
animal feed or for boiling purposes.
For the environmental concerns, the natural degradation of such
waste will generate CO2 at the same level. Burning it just
accelerate the process and make a second collection of available
energy. The trade off is to use it immediately or waste it in
landfills while burning other fossil fuels...
Humanity needs to use all the components on the natural energy
matrix, unless somebody is in the position to determine what
nations can or not do, but if so, please provide valid ways to
level the benefits of our civilization to everybody...
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11/11/09 | Report as spam
RE: Sweet smell of renewable energy
Well, there are a number of problems with the process. As mentioned by other writers, air pollution is a major issue. The process also involves a substantial amount of labor, and that labor in South America is paid next to nothing. We may be willing to let that ride in that locale, but it's hard to imagine that very low wage patterns would be allowed to exist in any developed country.
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11/11/09 | Report as spam
RE: Sweet smell of renewable energy
why brazil? because its in desperate need of power and doesnt have the epa restrictions we have here in the u.s. Where is all that waste from the waste going? what is the byproduct of burning bagasse? is it filtered before going into the sky for all the local people to breath. Is this really green? probably not.
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11/11/09 | Report as spam
RE: Sweet smell of renewable energy
Hey folks! This is Mark from Claren. Just wanted to respond to some of the question and concerns that were raised. Many of you who commented that this is an established process are right. Burning bagasse to produce steam and electricity has been done for years, but very inefficiently. What Claren is doing is upgrading an existing mill's co-generation capacity by trading its old low pressure boiler (generally 21 bar) for a new high pressure one (between 65-100 bars). This allows you to use the same amount of fuel that before was just supplying the internal needs of the mill to do that, as well as providing signficant excess energy to the grid.
The reason why it is "green" is that you are taking an existing practice and making it more efficient (from the same amount of fuel you are producing three times as much energy). In addition, the sugar harvest runs during the dry season when Brazil's hydro reserves are at their lowerst point (Brazil derives about 90% of its power from hydro) and thermal power (heavy oil) is used. Basically, we are replacing thermal power with biomass (which is a renewable resource). That is why these projects are eligible for CERs (Carbon emission reduction credits). We also work with our mill owners to switch out old steam-driven motors that drive the mill process for electrical ones and to make steam efficiency improvements, reducing the mill's internal steam and electricity consumption and allowing us to export more to the grid. The emissions are scrubbed and comply with Brazilian EPA standards. The newer boilers are a lot greener than the equipment we are replacing some of which is more than 50 years old.
The really exciting thing about this area is that the mechanization of cane harvesting creates new opportunities to both help the environment and generate additional energy during the off season. Traditionally, the cane fields are burned before harvesting, producing a lot of pollution and releasing a lot of CO2. This is changing due to labor and environmental legislation and voluntary bans adopted by the sugar industry in the largest sugar producing state, Sao Paulo. With green harvesting techniques you can collect the cane "trash" (stems and tops) and use them to extend the capacity and/or operating season of the co-generation facility. New techniques to clean the cane are also being explored that use fans rather than washing the cane, reducing water use and polution. The great thing about all of these new developments in the industry is that they are positive for the environment and create substantial new opportunities for revenues for mills and energy investors alike.
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11/11/09 | Report as spam
RE: Sweet smell of renewable energy
Burning bagasse for energy is actually recent in developing contries.
When speaking of "efficient energy" the scope is very narrow, the only really efficient energy is tidal/water & wind energy, all other forms of produced energy are pollution prone.
If you look at it in that way, even oil/grease from the tidal tubrines can pollute the sea or mountain channel water, and wind mills are an eye sore so you could call that "visual pollution".
Cane burning is a must!
So what if you produce a bit of C02, for the quality of sugar you'll extract without the "trash" you'll use less of some other (pollution prone) production process machinery to do the same job anyway.
I can't understand this "stereotyped", "commercial jingle dingle", "I'm an earthly saint" attitude towards going green each and every time industry is discussed.
I'm fed up with this sort of "we'll save the planet by the time its too late" motion from which someone out there is making trillions.
Bagasse burning is as good for the planet and everything on it as it should be, it produces recycled energy! What's better than that? A closed loop energy system.
What would one prefer? The mill to take up supply authority diesel turbine turbo alternator power?!
If the genious who started this whole "LET'S GO GREEN TO SAVE THE PLANET" could of simply came up with a solution to make paper and all derivitives of paper from some thing other than wood!
That's what I call real "GO GREEN PROGRESS"
98% of the rest is just to make money out of a miserable "Go Green" commercial campaign.
Its just to help Companies sell more of their produce because they offer (supposedly) "BIO", "Environmental Friendly" products as opposed to their competitors.
The only positive point which will come out of all this hypocrisy is the fact that we can use these campaigns to better educate our children.
But for heaven's sake, stop supporting these commercial advertisers, selling advertisments which promote make believe concepts.
THE MASSES ARE THE ASSES?!
The asset should be a different facette.
Its just to sound good, philanthrophic and caring.
Thumbs up to the burning of bagasse! That's progressive. . .Now why don't we all just take a break off from being regressive in our attitudes?
Be careful while you take care of being careful everyone.
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11/11/09 | Report as spam
RE: Sweet smell of renewable energy
Mauritius is also a large sugar producer from sugar cane and selling
most of its production to EU countries. But with a drastic reduction in
the buying price from the EU countries. The country had to look for new
products from sugar cane and one of them is the production of
Electricity from bagasse. The Sugar Millers (now known as the
Independent Power Producers- IPPs) are selling the energy produced to
the state owned CEB for transmission and distribution to the
polpulation at very 'exorbitant' price. As usual the exploiters are
making a lot of money.
The question of pollution raised raised in the above commentaries are
quite revealing and should be investigated further.
H.K.Samboo.
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11/17/09 | Report as spam
RE: Sweet smell of renewable energy
t last, a healthy use for this hidden poison. Pity we can't do the same with tobacco fields.
We in the 3rd world certainly need this type of investment. We have the baseline structures to produce; we need the investment to make it happen.
Given that most 3rd world energy is based on coal this could significantly reduce CO2 emissions. In fact, here is South Africa, there are plans to introduce new power plants and STILL based on aging coal technology which shows the ignorance that abounds.
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11/19/09 | Report as spam
RE: Sweet smell of renewable energy
usefulinfo
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11/20/09 | Report as spam
RE: Sweet smell of renewable energy
Saccharum officinarum
Cuban sugar factories are set up to process bagasse pith for animal feed. ... to draught animals, dual purpose/low yielding cows or finishing cattle. ...
www.fao.org/AG/Aga/AGAP/FRG/AFRIS/DATA/552.htm
Draught animals provide 'traction' and fertilize as they plough. Cool! NO BS!
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11/24/09 | Report as spam
RE: Sweet smell of renewable energy
A good venture to get renewable energy but its impact on the
environment has to be ascertained to gauge if it surpasses its carbon
credit. Biomass for energy can be sourced from other crops but it is
important that its advantages are shared by the people and they all
understand what is being sacrificed to get this renewable energy.
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12/02/09 | Report as spam
Poor Carbon Accounting
I see a lot of confusion about accounting for the carbon. Let me try to clear some of it up.
1) no, burning bagasse is NOT as carbon intensive as burning oil or coal. These latter two have much more carbon than wood, which has both carbon and hydrogen.
That is, the -ratio- of carbon to hydrogen is higher, so burning oil and coal releases MORE carbon per unit of energy.
2) If the bagasse is not burned for energy, where DO you think the carbon will go? Much of it will find its way back into the atmosphere anyway due to vegetable decay, and we get NO energy out of that. This means that somebody is going to burn oil or coal to release yet MORE carbon to get the energy we could have got from the bagasse.
So yes, burning bagasse instead of oil or coal IS green, though not by a lot. A truly carbon-free energy source would be much better, but people are still wary of nuclear -- for good reason.
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12/23/09 | Report as spam
RE: Sweet smell of renewable energy
"2) If the bagasse is not burned for energy, where DO you think
the carbon will go? Much of it will find its way back into the
atmosphere anyway due to vegetable decay, and we get NO energy
out of that. "
It amazes me that people don't get this. The sugar cane absorbed
the CO2 out of the atmosphere while it grew: if you burn it, you're
only putting the CO2 back where it came from.
No harm, no foul.
The only issue would be particulates. And apparently the smoke
is being scrubbed appropriately.
You could USE that CO2 immediately to grow algae, if you had
enough land to build the greenhouses on.
That way you'd produce a second export of algae oil and have
algae cake left over to feed to livestock.
The CO2 will be re-released when the algae oil is burned, and
when the livestock manure decomposes.
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01/06/10 | Report as spam
RE: Sweet smell of renewable energy
You people worrying about burning are nuts!! Give up your grills already and start producing steam with all the hot air flowing from your mouths and ears!!!
With a sweet tooth like mine, there aren’t a lot of sugar products I haven’t met (and loved). But Mark Smith and Pete Messman surprised me with their Arlington, Va.-based company, Claren Power, which partners with sugar mills in Brazil to build modern, cogenerational (making heat and power simultaneously) facilities. The fuel comes from sugar cane waste—called bagasse—which apparently doesn’t look or taste like the sugar in my ice cream or cupcakes, so I don’t have to worry about Claren as competition. I asked Smith to explain how this sweet model works.
