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1
11/09/09 | Report as spam
RE: Mirror, mirror, in my pen...
Great post , thanks so much for bringing attention to the awful plight of Lab animals !
what this study shows is that pigs , and all other animals should not be held captive in Labs and forced to do stupid experiments. Anybody who has been around animals could have told you that pigs have a " sense of self " and saved the time, money and enslavement of a beautiful living creature.
as PETA says :
animals are not ours to use for food, clothing, entertainment, experimentation, or any other purpose and animals deserve consideration of their best interests regardless of whether they are cute, useful to humans, or endangered and regardless of whether any human cares about them at all (just as a mentally challenged human has rights even if he or she is not cute or useful and even if everyone dislikes him or her)
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11/09/09 | Report as spam
RE: Mirror, mirror, in my pen...
Independent research is important, the more we can document how intelligent animals are the more likely they will be protected. This research actually helps PITA's cause, the more none biased data points the better.
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11/09/09 | Report as spam
RE: Mirror, mirror, in my pen...
Hi cfaranetta
I think we are on the same side here, but how many animals have to suffer and die before people stop torturing them? how much evidence is needed? will " scientific " evidence convince our Judeo-Christian society that so called "soul less beasts of burden " have rights too. Do the ends justify the means ? We are not sure if this evidence will convince anybody of anything , but we are sure that in the process the helpless animals are deprived of their natural life and freedom.
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11/09/09 | Report as spam
PETA is a group of pathetic anti-humanists
PETA will not be happy until every human is devloved into a complacent, stupid, herbivore.
We are animals. We are a part of the natural eco-system of this world. Our place in it is that of omnivores. Our physiology is that of omnivores. Meat has been a part of our diet for millions of years. We, as a species, have the right to eat animals, to kill them for creation of clothing, to use them to gain new knowledge, and to be entertained by them. Just as we, as a species, can in turn be used by animals for food.
Go kiss your tofu burger. But if you reach out to stop me from eating beef, chicken, fish, pigs, or even witchity grubs, I'm going to hack of your arm and eat it instead.
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11/09/09 | Report as spam
PETA wants to destroy the world
Dr Zinj is correct. The criminals at PETA want nothing more than to obliterate modern society. They will not rest until every modern convenience - like electricity, central heat and indoor plumbing are eliminated from the earth. Their leaders are SELF ADMITTEDLY anti-human and in favor of wiping out at least 35% of the human population from the earth.
Animals eat each other; it's the way of life. We are at the top of the food chain therefore we each most other creatures to sustain ourselves. That's how it should be. It doesn't mean any animal should be tortured, but most of what PETA considers torture would be considered humane treatment by most.
My family raised pigs when I was young, just a few of them. They're smart, have great personalities and taste great after they're butchered. We raised turkeys and chickens, too. I personally cut the heads off nearly every chicken and turkey we raised and not one of them ever suffered. When they were alive they had a great life with abundant food and clean water and we always took care of the animals before ourselves.
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11/09/09 | Report as spam
RE: Mirror, mirror, in my pen...
TO DR Zing
In reply to your post :
YOU SAY: PETA will not be happy until every human is devloved into a complacent, stupid, herbivore.
MY REPLY :herbivore yes, but stupidity and complacency have nothing to do with it.
YOU SAY :We are animals. We are a part of the natural eco-system of this world. Our place in it is that of omnivores. Our physiology is that of omnivores. Meat has been a part of our diet for millions of years. We, as a species, have the right to eat animals, to kill them for creation of clothing, to use them to gain new knowledge, and to be entertained by them. Just as we, as a species, can in turn be used by animals for food.
MY REPLY : not relevant to animal testing
YOU SAY :Go kiss your tofu burger. But if you reach out to stop me from eating beef, chicken, fish, pigs, or even witchity grubs, I'm going to hack of your arm and eat it instead.
MY REPLY : your final statement really demonstrates your lack of compassion and punctuates the lack of validity of your meaningless and illogical argument
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11/09/09 | Report as spam
RE: Mirror, mirror, in my pen...
TO Ken
YOU SAY :PETA wants to destroy the world
MY REPLY : inflammatory and absurd.
YOU SAY :Dr Zinj is correct. The criminals at PETA want nothing more than to obliterate modern society. They will not rest until every modern convenience - like electricity, central heat and indoor plumbing are eliminated from the earth. Their leaders are SELF ADMITTEDLY anti-human and in favor of wiping out at least 35% of the human population from the earth.
MY REPLY : you should do some fact checking on PETA's mission and past performance before making such absurd statements.
YOU SAY:Animals eat each other; it's the way of life. We are at the top of the food chain therefore we each most other creatures to sustain ourselves. That's how it should be. It doesn't mean any animal should be tortured, but most of what PETA considers torture would be considered humane treatment by most.
MY REPLY : You clearly have not studied the data on animal testing, because if you had you wold realize it is torture. Do some research before you make absurd statements please.
YOU SAY :My family raised pigs when I was young, just a few of them. They're smart, have great personalities and taste great after they're butchered. We raised turkeys and chickens, too. I personally cut the heads off nearly every chicken and turkey we raised and not one of them ever suffered. When they were alive they had a great life with abundant food and clean water and we always took care of the animals before ourselves.
MY REPLY : your small family farm is not representative of mainstream factory farming
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8
11/09/09 | Report as spam
RE: Mirror, mirror, in my pen...
What about the poor vegetables?
Do carrots scream when pulled from the earth?
Plants like classical music...
Time for Soylent Green???
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9
11/09/09 | Report as spam
RE: Mirror, mirror, in my pen...
"The study said the pigs were not locating the food bowl by
smell, because an overhead fan blew the odor around and away
from one specific spot (a tactic that would drive my fervently
sniffing beagle insane); rather, to use the mirror to find chow,
the study said, ?each pig must have observed features of its
surroundings, remembered these and its own actions, deduced
relationships among observed and remembered features and
acted accordingly.?
These are assumptions, not a conclusions. This experiment (if
done as reported here) is as unscientific as could be. Or about
as scientific as a grade school science fair experiment.
Most animals sense of smell is far superior to that of humans,
and pigs have a sense of smell as good as dogs. While a food
experiment with a fan could easily fool people, it would not
have fooled most dogs. It's also unlikely to fool pigs.
The pigs smelled the food.
BTW, my point is not to say that pigs aren't as smart. Any one
who raises them knows how smart they can be.
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10
11/09/09 | Report as spam
RE: Mirror, mirror, in my pen...
@ sashavinny,
Personal attacks on other posters do not validate one's assertions.
In fact, FWIW, you've pretty much validated the opinions many of
us have about PETA.
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11
11/09/09 | Report as spam
RE: Mirror, mirror, in my pen...
@Dr. Zinj:
Once again you demonstrate your complete lack of the ability
to craft an intelligent response. While I am not in full agreement
with the folks at PETA, your mindless, ad hominem response
did NOTHING to advance your cause, and made the rather
sophomoric and simple-minded responses above yours seem
erudite and well-reasoned.
@JonA_z:
You apparently have neither understood the experimental
paradigm, nor even the basics of research methodology.
Moreover, your objections indicate a complete lack of
understanding of the mechanisms behind the olfactory sense.
Clearly you are in NO position to be criticizing methodology.
Sense of smell is not some magical property, but mediated by
molecular osmosis and diffusion. It matters little how strong an
animals sense of smell is. If the molecules are not there to
impinge on receptors there will be no detection of them. This is
exactly why hunters attempt to remain downwind of prey
animals, so they can NOT be detected. Sorry but your objection
is NOT valid. Contrary to you assertion (which itself ironically
suffers from the issues you assign this experiment) dogs would
NOT be able to locate the food. If you wish to contest this,
please present empirical data showing the opposite.
Lastly, this experiment has NOTHING to do with how smart pigs
are. This experiment was directed at determining levels of self-
awareness, an entirely different topic.
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11/09/09 | Report as spam
RE: Mirror, mirror, in my pen...
@jonA_z
If you read my replies you will see I made no personal attacks on anyone, I simply refuted illogical statements.
In fact Dr Zinj is the one who ended his argument by threatening to rip the arm off a vegetarian who gets in the way of eating meat.
how interesting you did not note that as a personal attack ? I would like to see you point to a single spot in any of my posts that contain a personal attack
I challenge you to back up your assertion with fact
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13
11/09/09 | Report as spam
RE: Mirror, mirror, in my pen...
PETA murders tens of thousands of animals every year. They need only to look in their own mirror and point to themselves. Their holier than thou attitude is hypocritical and disgusting.
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14
11/09/09 | Report as spam
RE: Mirror, mirror, in my pen...
RE : PETA murders tens of thousands of animals every year
Veterinarians and animal shelters kill ten times as many animals each year as PETA. It is not PETA's fault that Dog's and cats are overbred and oversold . I hate the thought of PETA or anyone else killing animals, but it is a symptom , not the cause of the problem
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15
11/10/09 | Report as spam
peta ...eat me
I am a PETA supporter:
P...eople
E...ating
T...asty
A...nimals
suck tofu...animals are food...deal with it
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16
11/17/09 | Report as spam
PETA can suck my pen...
We still like your semi porn ad campaing.
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17
11/17/09 | Report as spam
RE: Mirror, mirror, in my pen...
The sooner we uplift animals the sooner we uplift ourselves as a
species
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18
11/17/09 | Report as spam
RE: Mirror, mirror, in my pen...
Lab testing promotes knowledge.
Knowledge promotes understanding.
Understanding promotes more humane treatment.
If anybody saw a negative aspect to this simple experiment, then I would have to disagree with them, AND their philosophies on animal treatment. Responsible farmers want to understand everything they can about the animals under their care. If putting mirrors in my chicken coop will increase egg production, then I will do it.
There is plenty of room for the animals...right next to my mashed potatoes & gravy!
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11/19/09 | Report as spam
RE: Mirror, mirror, in my pen...
I like my bacon, and can not understand why we don't treat our food stock decently. What intelligence has to do with our treatment of animals is my question for you?
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11/19/09 | Report as spam
RE: Animal Testing
To all those who don't want animal testing, one question:
Are you offering yourself, your family members or your children as test subjects to make sure that products and vaccines are safe on humans? I understand that animal testing can seem cruel, and maybe there are ways to make it more humane overall, but the fact of the matter is, without animal testing a lot more people will die from untested products and medicines. As long as you're willing to step in their place, that's fine, otherwise, I'd prefer not to be killed by an untested vaccine or cream, thank you.
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11/19/09 | Report as spam
RE: Mirror, mirror, in my pen...
Even more reason to stop eating so much pork!
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11/20/09 | Report as spam
RE: Mirror, mirror, in my pen...
@jonaz
you said: "Most animals sense of smell is far superior to that of
humans,
and pigs have a sense of smell as good as dogs. While a food
experiment with a fan could easily fool people, it would not
have fooled most dogs. It's also unlikely to fool pigs.
The pigs smelled the food."
did you read this line?:
"The study said the pigs were not locating the food bowl by smell,
because an overhead fan blew the odor around and away from one
specific spot (a tactic that would drive my fervently sniffing
beagle insane) "
the dog would have failed the test
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11/20/09 | Report as spam
RE: Mirror, mirror, in my pen...
I used to love playing with Sacha Carnegie's pigs. They were very friendly, highly intelligent, and each one had a name and a unique personality.
ODD BOOK TITLE OF THE WEEK
Pigs I Have Known, By Sacha Carnegie. Peter Davies. 1958.
Libraries Australia reports holdings at: http://nla.gov.au/anbd.bib-an8701 349.
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11/20/09 | Report as spam
No ad hominem attacks in my post.
Humans are omnivores.
PETAs are self-admittedly not meat eaters.
Ergo, they are not omnivores.
Ergo, they are not humans.
Ergo, it's not possible for them to be recipients of an ad hominem attack.
As for ripping their arms off to eat being construed as an attack; it most definately is not. It's a simple cause-effect statement. Interference with my carnivorism is a personal attack on me and my decision to eat the attacker is merely a response.
What was it that Larry Niven once said through one of his novels? "It doesn't take much intelligence to sneak up on a carrot?"
“My, what big ears I have!”
