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    <title><![CDATA[Discussion on Will polluters pay for California's high-speed rail? ]]></title>
    <link><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-9095]]></link>
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        <title><![CDATA[Don't you understand?]]></title>
        <link><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-9095-63758]]></link>
        <description><![CDATA[It's the transport for the post-carbon future, when autos &amp; planes will either be too expensive to operate or just outright banned.  Did you not see the picture above?  The new trail will be propelled by windmills, solar panels, and self-esteem.But seriously, you are correct.  They've been talking about this for 40 years.  As a former resident of California, I once even thought it was a good idea.  The problem is that they can't make a viable business case for it.  The ridership numbers they provide are simply absurd.  Their cost estimates are fantasy.  If the business case was as wonderful as they say, it wouldn't need taxpayer funding at all.And you missed one: HSR &quot;works&quot; in Europe because it's totally subsidized.  I love traveling by rail in Europe.  But every time I do, it's with the knowledge that my 1st-class trip is being paid for mostly by average citizens with a much lower standard of living than I have.]]></description>
        <guid><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-9095-63758]]></guid>
        <dc:creator><![CDATA[JohnMcGrew@...]]></dc:creator>
        <pubDate>Fri, 10 Feb 2012 09:49:34 -0800</pubDate>
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    <item>
        <title><![CDATA[WHY THE PUSH FOR A TRANSPORTATION SOLUTION NO ONE ASKED FOR?]]></title>
        <link><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-9095-63744]]></link>
        <description><![CDATA[One of facts I have never seen quoted are current volumes of people already traveling between LA and S.F. - by car, by train, by air, bicycle or by 20 mule team. I see huge forecast numbers of riders who will apparently come out of nowhere to take the new train - but what are these numbers based on?  Should be easy data to get.  For example -  How many people curently ride the railroad between these 2 cities?  Easy answer - 0.Because there is no passenger rail service between them.  Why?  Maybe because there was never enough rail passenger demand to begin with.  So where will it come from in the future?You've already got fast &amp; efficient $49 air service between S.F. and LAX, or San Diego, or Ontario or Orange County or Long Beach or presumably even Burbank.  How is going to just 1 H.S. rail terminal for the entire LA megopolis improving rider access?H.S. rail works better in Europe because :1&gt; the rail lines/right-of-ways were already there2&gt; Cities generally more compact and consolidated, as well as having good public transport for people to use for H.S. rail terminal access.I am not against new rail systems at all - but I am against our governments wanting to waste our money on projects that cannot even come close to financially justifying themselves.   Given all the government debt we already have - how can any politician honestly propose more wasteful spending with $$ we do not have?   What is the real incentive behind the push for H.S. rail?  It has nothing to do with a railroad - and has everything to do with greed and corruption.  Look to the lobbyists, contractors and politicians who cannot wait to get their hands on this H.S. rail $$ - many of them will make $$millions and they could not care less about any stupid railroad.]]></description>
        <guid><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-9095-63744]]></guid>
        <dc:creator><![CDATA[HappiHenri]]></dc:creator>
        <pubDate>Thu, 09 Feb 2012 16:14:32 -0800</pubDate>
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    <item>
        <title><![CDATA[Spending $300,000 to buy $161,103 worth of lobbying.]]></title>
        <link><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-9095-63558]]></link>
        <description><![CDATA[http://www.mercurynews.com/california-high-speed-rail/ci_19881156&quot;In an extremely unusual use of taxpayer money, the leaders behind California's $99 billion high-speed train quietly hired a lobbyist to sway the Legislature -- the same politicians who appointed them to build the project in the first place.Documents filed this week show the California High-Speed Rail Authority last year paid $161,103 to one of the country's biggest public relations firms to lobby the state's politicians as they consider spending $2.7 billion to launch the polarizing bullet train project.Rail officials paid the lobbyists by issuing debt that will total about $300,000 with interest. It must be paid back through California's impoverished general fund budget.The lobbying revelation is the latest in a series of hits to the agency's credibility. In December, rail leaders backtracked on their projections that the bullet train will create 1 million jobs, after this newspaper reported the project would create only 20,000 to 60,000 jobs during a typical year.Since voters approved the San Francisco-to-Los Angeles rail line in 2008, the railroad's cost has tripled, expected ridership counts have dwindled and the start date of full service has been pushed back 14 years.&quot;These are the goofuses you wish to entrust $100,000,000,000 to?]]></description>
        <guid><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-9095-63558]]></guid>
        <dc:creator><![CDATA[JohnMcGrew@...]]></dc:creator>
        <pubDate>Tue, 07 Feb 2012 14:05:31 -0800</pubDate>
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    <item>
        <title><![CDATA[Funny Math]]></title>
        <link><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-9095-63051]]></link>
        <description><![CDATA[In order to make the math work so that the bond money that the citizens voted for (which won't even pay for maybe 10% of the ultimate cost, if that much) can legally be released, they've had to invent load factors of something like 40 million riders per year.  That's more than the population of the entire state; more than 100,000 riders per day, which is basically inconceivable.It's the exact same kind of funny math NASA used to convince Congress that the Space Shuttle would be a profitable means for commercial space launch.  (They were projecting roughly 50 missions a year - 1 a week - to get the cost/mission number down to something that Congress would buy)]]></description>
        <guid><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-9095-63051]]></guid>
        <dc:creator><![CDATA[JohnMcGrew@...]]></dc:creator>
        <pubDate>Tue, 31 Jan 2012 18:06:54 -0800</pubDate>
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        <title><![CDATA[Have you looked at the design?]]></title>
        <link><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-9095-63018]]></link>
        <description><![CDATA[Do you understand anything about the strengths and weaknesses of HSR?Do you know anything about intergrated rail systems?Do you know anything about what triggered the sudden downfall of the US rail system  post 1960?Do you know why the European rail system was both successful and profitable post WW II and why it is bleeding money in an unsustainable manner now?Like most US HSR advocates you do not know the answers so you do not know where the future is.  I love HSR rail because I know where the future is.The US is the perfect place for HSR as part of an intergrated rail system.  I just have not seen a plan that handles the situation as it should be handled.  Every design, like California, is a poor implimentation of good technology.I some times do not waste my time with spell check when dealing with people who have no clue what they are talking about.  It levels the playing field.]]></description>
        <guid><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-9095-63018]]></guid>
        <dc:creator><![CDATA[Hates Idiots]]></dc:creator>
        <pubDate>Tue, 31 Jan 2012 13:02:15 -0800</pubDate>
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        <title><![CDATA[Do you know what you speak of?]]></title>
        <link><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-9095-63024]]></link>
        <description><![CDATA[Have you seen the California HSR project plan?  It is a $100 billion subway.They are going to put trains capable of nearly 200 mph on routes with train stations every 10 to 20 miles.  The trains will NEVER run at top speed between stations.They have the billion dollar Acela running on such a crappy schedule that the 1930's era steam engine that ran the Boston to NY City run in the 1940's did the run in over an hour less time than the billion dollar toy.HSR implimentation in the US is a joke because the pols play lip service to it, but refuse to make the tough decisions like telling a wealthy Connecticut community they have to deal with a train doing 150 mph through their town.Instead you end up with a patchwork of NIMBY agreements that put low speed limits on perfectly good track or express rail beds being closed in favor of eco-friendly bike paths and walking trails.You mention the chunnel run between London and Paris.  Did you know the chunnel its self is longer than the average designed distance between California HSR stations?  The 2 1/2 hour run between London and Paris is longer than the longest route planned in California.  The extended length of time between stops maximizes the trains high speed capabilities.The short hops in Californias HSR plan wastes all of that capability and more importently, the money that would paid for it.  Just like Acela.]]></description>
        <guid><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-9095-63024]]></guid>
        <dc:creator><![CDATA[Hates Idiots]]></dc:creator>
        <pubDate>Tue, 31 Jan 2012 12:19:34 -0800</pubDate>
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    <item>
        <title><![CDATA[Laughable????]]></title>
        <link><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-9095-63033]]></link>
        <description><![CDATA[Funny how a person who Hates Idiots, and who doesn't use spell checker, compares the California HSR project to a failed highway project others in this conversation refer to as the place where the money should be flowing. Can you predict failure? How many projects, both private and public, go over budget? Is the basic system design of the California HSR project fundamentally flawed making it doomed from the start? Are we in this conversation qualified to answer? Are we to be the only industrialized country not investing in High Speed Rail?]]></description>
        <guid><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-9095-63033]]></guid>
        <dc:creator><![CDATA[DavisZdNet]]></dc:creator>
        <pubDate>Tue, 31 Jan 2012 12:11:56 -0800</pubDate>
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    <item>
        <title><![CDATA[High Speed Rail]]></title>
        <link><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-9095-63017]]></link>
        <description><![CDATA[Get real. It will happen and it will be part of the life style of whichever generation it operates in. It will be part of the infrastructure. Mass transit projects already reduce highway congestion. High Speed rail will also reduce airport congestion and travel time in cities for trips less than 350 miles, no trip out to the airport.For example, Eurostar has competed head to head with the airlines on the London ??? Paris and London ??? Brussels routes and now has market share of around 75%, replacing short-haul air travel as the natural mode of choice.Don't say it can happen here. Ridership is up year after year on Amtrak despite 40 years of being underfunded.Don't say it won't make a profit because no mode of transportation does. Taxes pay for roads and air travel.]]></description>
        <guid><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-9095-63017]]></guid>
        <dc:creator><![CDATA[DavisZdNet]]></dc:creator>
        <pubDate>Tue, 31 Jan 2012 11:57:32 -0800</pubDate>
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    <item>
        <title><![CDATA[RE: Laughable]]></title>
        <link><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-9095-63023]]></link>
        <description><![CDATA[Yup, Governor Moonbeam is at it again...]]></description>
        <guid><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-9095-63023]]></guid>
        <dc:creator><![CDATA[GregGold]]></dc:creator>
        <pubDate>Tue, 31 Jan 2012 11:33:54 -0800</pubDate>
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    <item>
        <title><![CDATA[bullet train pipe dream]]></title>
        <link><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-9095-63008]]></link>
        <description><![CDATA[We do not need a new train system,we need to repair and renew the infrastucture we already have.]]></description>
        <guid><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-9095-63008]]></guid>
        <dc:creator><![CDATA[wildwolf93446]]></dc:creator>
        <pubDate>Tue, 31 Jan 2012 11:00:37 -0800</pubDate>
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        <title><![CDATA[Laughable.]]></title>
        <link><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-9095-62953]]></link>
        <description><![CDATA[- - California Governor Jerry Brown said that the state???s high-speed rail project will cost much less than the $100 billion estimate - - -They said the same thing about the $3 billion Big Dig in Boston.Taxpayer bill = $14 billion and climbing and hundreds of millions in design flaws have to be fixed.  A nearly 5 fold increase in costs for a project that saw a reduction in scope to contain costs.The basic system design of the California HSR project is fundamentaly flawed making it doomed from the start.  After they spend decades trying to make a bad plan work this California HSR project will cost close to a TRILLION dollars by the time they walk away from it.]]></description>
        <guid><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-9095-62953]]></guid>
        <dc:creator><![CDATA[Hates Idiots]]></dc:creator>
        <pubDate>Tue, 31 Jan 2012 06:59:50 -0800</pubDate>
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