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    <title><![CDATA[Discussion on Are hybrids worth the extra-cost? ]]></title>
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    <lastBuildDate>2013-05-20T19:37:51-07:00</lastBuildDate>
             

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        <title><![CDATA[Keep your unfounded opinion to yourself]]></title>
        <link><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-5895-71399]]></link>
        <description><![CDATA[My experience says otherwise. I'll stick to my Chevy.]]></description>
        <guid><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-5895-71399]]></guid>
        <dc:creator><![CDATA[mlevy@...]]></dc:creator>
        <pubDate>Tue, 22 May 2012 13:51:09 -0700</pubDate>
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        <title><![CDATA[Re: Love our loaded Fusion Hybrid.]]></title>
        <link><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-5895-48813]]></link>
        <description><![CDATA[@bill and @Pigweed -- You haven't said anything at all about how much extra it cost to buy your hybrid or how much you save per year. That's what determines whether your hybrids are worth the extra cost -- not how much you like them. Lots of people like non-hybrids too.Isn't the point of these things supposed to be that they save money (or CO2)? Yet people extol the virtues of hybrids without having any clue how much they're saving or even if they're saving any at all. Amazing.]]></description>
        <guid><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-5895-48813]]></guid>
        <dc:creator><![CDATA[william02138]]></dc:creator>
        <pubDate>Sun, 31 Jul 2011 10:23:01 -0700</pubDate>
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        <title><![CDATA[Re: Don't obsess over MPG, it's GPM that matters.]]></title>
        <link><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-5895-48767]]></link>
        <description><![CDATA[Exactly! Most people are clueless about math and need all the help they can get. When you buy an appliance there's a tag that says how much money it will cost to operate for a year (assuming average usages and electricity prices). That's what we need for cars. The MPG nomenclature hides the fact that there are diminishing returns to increasing efficiency. Try asking people the following question: Which would save more gas: modifying a 15 MPG minivan to get one more MPG, or modifying a 45 MPG compact car to get *10* more MPGs? Improving the minivan saves more gas, of course. Most people would get this wrong.]]></description>
        <guid><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-5895-48767]]></guid>
        <dc:creator><![CDATA[william02138]]></dc:creator>
        <pubDate>Sun, 31 Jul 2011 02:47:37 -0700</pubDate>
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    <item>
        <title><![CDATA[Wishing isn't facts]]></title>
        <link><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-5895-45477]]></link>
        <description><![CDATA[Why because it doesn't say Honda or Toyota on the badge?  You don't like the tires??  Make your post worth reading by giving FACTS why you wish you didn't have a Ford so we all can learn from it....]]></description>
        <guid><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-5895-45477]]></guid>
        <dc:creator><![CDATA[jrougeux58]]></dc:creator>
        <pubDate>Sun, 26 Jun 2011 10:03:34 -0700</pubDate>
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        <title><![CDATA[A good second hand car is better value]]></title>
        <link><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-5895-45234]]></link>
        <description><![CDATA[The depreciation on a new car is so great that I can buy a good second hand for less than the price of new tyres.Even when I replace tyres, clutch, brakes, steering etc. It doesn't cost more than a third of a new car.I am a pensioner &amp; don't do a great deal of milage. So it's horses for courses.I guess it depends on your life style, milage &amp; ego more than price.]]></description>
        <guid><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-5895-45234]]></guid>
        <dc:creator><![CDATA[TonyTrenton]]></dc:creator>
        <pubDate>Thu, 23 Jun 2011 04:43:34 -0700</pubDate>
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        <title><![CDATA[Worth it? In a word, No.]]></title>
        <link><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-5895-44702]]></link>
        <description><![CDATA[Good post! As one of the not-well-to-do, I drive a 14-year old car with nearly 140K miles on it. By most posters here, it could be considered a 3000+ lb land yacht, BUT I get 26-34 mpg and that's because I can't afford more maintenance on it. Most newer and lighter cars still struggle to get that kind of mileage.And another point: notice how the marketing of hybrids has shifted. Due to their higher costs, which practically guarantees they are not worth the premium over conventional vehicles from an economic standpoint, hybrids are being pushed as having &quot;more torque&quot; instead of improving gas mileage. Add to that the fact that many people trade in for new every 2-3 years and any economic advantage disappears in a cloud of logic.People are also traveling farther to work - and to find work - these days. Hybrids lose any MPG advantage on the highway.There are many reasons hybrids CAN BE good cars to use. Economics is a miserably poor one.]]></description>
        <guid><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-5895-44702]]></guid>
        <dc:creator><![CDATA[Suncat2000]]></dc:creator>
        <pubDate>Thu, 16 Jun 2011 14:04:22 -0700</pubDate>
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        <title><![CDATA[And you had each car HOW long...]]></title>
        <link><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-5895-43591]]></link>
        <description><![CDATA[You haven't said anything remarkable except you changed cars 3 times.  How long did you own each car and what was the depreciation on each?  Then include financing charges, factor in fuel charges for each, maintenance not covered with the 100K----then tell us how much you saved over a gasoline fueled car.....   Finance companies must love you.]]></description>
        <guid><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-5895-43591]]></guid>
        <dc:creator><![CDATA[rgoeken1@...]]></dc:creator>
        <pubDate>Fri, 03 Jun 2011 05:27:44 -0700</pubDate>
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        <title><![CDATA[3?]]></title>
        <link><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-5895-43535]]></link>
        <description><![CDATA[Huh ... the Prius has only been out, what 14 years now.  And you've gone through 3?  That doesn't make much of a case for their long term reliability to me...]]></description>
        <guid><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-5895-43535]]></guid>
        <dc:creator><![CDATA[dfelix@...]]></dc:creator>
        <pubDate>Thu, 02 Jun 2011 11:45:43 -0700</pubDate>
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        <title><![CDATA[volcanoes not greater source of C02]]></title>
        <link><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-5895-43529]]></link>
        <description><![CDATA[http://volcanoes.usgs.gov/hazards/gas/climate.php&quot;Global volcanic CO2 emission estimates are uncertain, but there is little doubt that the anthropogenic CO2 emission rate is more than a hundred times greater than the global volcanic CO2 emission rate. &quot;]]></description>
        <guid><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-5895-43529]]></guid>
        <dc:creator><![CDATA[dfelix@...]]></dc:creator>
        <pubDate>Thu, 02 Jun 2011 11:30:17 -0700</pubDate>
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        <title><![CDATA[Don't obsess over MPG, it's GPM that matters.]]></title>
        <link><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-5895-43527]]></link>
        <description><![CDATA[It's already been pointed out that diesel mpg can't be directly compared to gasoline because diesel fuel has higher energy and carbon content.  But more to the point this obsession with super high MPG numbers is harmful to improving fuel efficiency.Let's say you have a beast of an SUV that gets 10MPG and drive 10K miles in a year.  That's 1000 gallons of fuel to drive that car.  Now replace that car with something like a minivan or one of the newer crossover vehicles that gets about 20MPG.  Now you use 500 gallons of fuel, a savings of 500 gallons.  And unless you have a really large trailer that you 'need' to tow, you've probably given up nothing significant.  Go from 20MPG to 30MPG and you use 333 gallons of fuel, saving 167 gallons.  Even going from 20MPG to 40MPG you save 250 gallons, still a good savings but you give up pretty significant capability (passenger seating, load and towing capacity.  Of course if you don't need to seat 7 and their gear, go for it.)  And going from 50MPG to 60MPG?  You save 33 gallons of fuel in a year.   Not that we should stop trying to improve mileage at any point, but convincing virtually everyone to increase to the maximum mileage vehicle that still meets their needs is a much bigger savings in fuel than getting a handful of specially eco-sensitive folks to drive super high mpg vehicles.  (And I know people who've chosen to by a Yukon over a Traverse because the traverse would 'only' get 5MPG better mileage.  Best change the EPA could make would be to sticker cars with &quot;gallons per 10K miles&quot; rather than MPG.)]]></description>
        <guid><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-5895-43527]]></guid>
        <dc:creator><![CDATA[dfelix@...]]></dc:creator>
        <pubDate>Thu, 02 Jun 2011 11:04:42 -0700</pubDate>
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        <title><![CDATA[We keep missing the real need here]]></title>
        <link><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-5895-43240]]></link>
        <description><![CDATA[If we could ever make an all electric car with a 100 mile range for less than $16,000 and then put solar panels on our home roofs for less than $4,000, that's a combo the average guy could afford and that we could most easily live with.  For the rare occasion we have longer trips we could either rent a car or use the car we keep in the garage but that we avoid like the plague.  It's not just about the cost of hybrid v/s electric, it's also about the need to build these cars at a cost the average American can actually afford and operate.  Pardon me, but a $500 or more a month payment on rapidly depreciating purchase is becoming something less and less people can really afford as we watch wages dropping along with the cost for fuel going up and up.  Is the 27 grand Toyota really that great a value?  Ford originally built cars for the masses that the average person could afford.  This simply doesn't appear the goal of most manufacturers these days.  A golf cart with a heater and big enough to hold my wheelchair and get me from point A to point B is all I'm asking for.  My home shows what I've accomplished in life, not the car I'm driving anymore.]]></description>
        <guid><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-5895-43240]]></guid>
        <dc:creator><![CDATA[forteinmo]]></dc:creator>
        <pubDate>Sat, 28 May 2011 13:19:47 -0700</pubDate>
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    <item>
        <title><![CDATA[@ mitzi56]]></title>
        <link><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-5895-43149]]></link>
        <description><![CDATA[This sounds like a gift to big oil. A special tax on hybrids is regressive and counter-productive. Big Oil execs are going to be giving each other high fives if that insane bill passes. I always thought Oregon was a progressive state but I guess politicians are stupid everywhere. It seems the greedier and dumber they are, the faster the rise to the top,]]></description>
        <guid><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-5895-43149]]></guid>
        <dc:creator><![CDATA[oceanpine@...]]></dc:creator>
        <pubDate>Thu, 26 May 2011 14:07:02 -0700</pubDate>
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        <title><![CDATA[What everyone it seems keeps missing about hybrids n electrics]]></title>
        <link><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-5895-42316]]></link>
        <description><![CDATA[I thought it worth mentioning in the subject line electric vehicles since both they and hybrids use large, expensive battery packs, therefore resulting in the same long term issues.I notice that most of the claims here for hybrids being worth the extra cost are by actual owners who have only 3 to 5 yrs of use of their vehicles before trading them in for a new one. Of course battery replacement won't be an issue for them since they don't keep the car long enough for it to wear out.An important fact that seems to get ignored in these discussions is that not everyone buys every car they own new from the dealer. In fact used car sales far outnumber new. A hybrid that hits the used car market with only a few years left on the battery pack won't be worth near as much as it's conventionally powered counterpart. How many of us drive cars that are over 10 years old or have more than 100K miles? Today's gasoline engined cars easily reach 150 to 200K miles before they need an engine rebuild (which would be for the most part a comparable cost to a battery pack replacement). Those who are best able to afford the inevitable battery replacement will be more likely to buy new, not used. Next, the poor do actually exist and in far greater numbers than the well-to-do. The poor cannot now and probably not ever afford a hybrid new nor replace the battery in a used hybrid. That means that they will most likely be buying used conventionally powered vehicles. The end result is that used hybrids will thus be more likely to end up in a junk yard sooner than their gasoline powered counterparts, negating any efforts to alter the percentage of hybrids on the roads in any lasting significant way.]]></description>
        <guid><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-5895-42316]]></guid>
        <dc:creator><![CDATA[llamasaki]]></dc:creator>
        <pubDate>Sat, 14 May 2011 13:55:45 -0700</pubDate>
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        <title><![CDATA[Batteries]]></title>
        <link><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-5895-42161]]></link>
        <description><![CDATA[This is uninformed. I have owned 3 priuses.  All with 100k bumper to bumper warranties driven all over the US with no problems and had remarkable trade-in value and protected by Toyota for the hybrid sys longer than what I want to own the car. The BIG issue with hitech is obsolescence because like laptops things change and improve FAST. Buy soon, trade often.]]></description>
        <guid><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-5895-42161]]></guid>
        <dc:creator><![CDATA[JINBABBA]]></dc:creator>
        <pubDate>Thu, 12 May 2011 15:24:36 -0700</pubDate>
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        <title><![CDATA[Smaller..but would you put your loved ones in heavy traffic in one?]]></title>
        <link><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-5895-41789]]></link>
        <description><![CDATA[The debate between &quot;golf carts&quot; and &quot;land yachts&quot; will continue until we find a way to make it safe to drive smaller cars. I have been in small cars in Europe and Asia and have not seen 1 I would feel comfortable letting my family drive in our traffic. We need to physically seperate small, fuel efficient vehicles (2, 3 or 3 wheels) from the 80,000 pound trucks and the 8,000 pound SUVs. People won't change unless they are motivated. Have a HOV type lane only for the smaller cars, tax the larger vehicles and/or tax credits for the new technology.]]></description>
        <guid><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-5895-41789]]></guid>
        <dc:creator><![CDATA[TCMCATCMG,BTBSGOF]]></dc:creator>
        <pubDate>Mon, 09 May 2011 10:59:26 -0700</pubDate>
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        <title><![CDATA[Diesel - energy density]]></title>
        <link><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-5895-41728]]></link>
        <description><![CDATA[I recall that diesel has a fairly higher density for energy than gasoline, just as gasoline is of higher chemical energy content than a partly oxidized fuel like ethanol.  I would hope that diesel, containing a higher energy content (and creating a higher CO2 output) would go farther, just like I expect gasoline to go farther than ethanol.And as for being brainwashed, the only brainwashing that is happening is that expecting conventional motored (no energy recovery system), heavy vehicles, typical of the North America car market (nearly all &gt;3000 lbs) to get much over 40 mpg, is goofy.  Vehicles need to be lighter as well as more efficient.  Efficiency comes in both the ability to get the most motion from the least fuel as well as the ability to recover some of the energy invested in motion for re-use like hybrids do to varying extents.]]></description>
        <guid><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-5895-41728]]></guid>
        <dc:creator><![CDATA[daves1646]]></dc:creator>
        <pubDate>Sun, 08 May 2011 19:38:18 -0700</pubDate>
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        <title><![CDATA[Batteries - So far so good]]></title>
        <link><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-5895-41715]]></link>
        <description><![CDATA[My HCH has been good from a battery standpoint save on one VERY cold morning (-12 F).  And even then, the conventional battery and starter on my '06 Civic Hybrid brought the beast on-line.  My battery capacity may have decreased some over the 5 yrs 4 months I've owned it, but it is still doing well and delivering &gt;40 mpg in winter (15 - 30 F) and &gt;50 mpg in summers.Now with gas prices climbing again, I don't regret the investment at the time.  I too will be happiest to see battery long term reliability improve so that the hybrid cars are reliable with NO reservations so they're more readily accepted.  There definitely is the potential to reduce fuel consumption and being able to go the full working life of a vehicle on the original battery pack would take the fear-factor out of the extra up front costs.]]></description>
        <guid><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-5895-41715]]></guid>
        <dc:creator><![CDATA[daves1646]]></dc:creator>
        <pubDate>Sun, 08 May 2011 19:29:57 -0700</pubDate>
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        <title><![CDATA[i agree, yes it is!]]></title>
        <link><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-5895-41678]]></link>
        <description><![CDATA[i just purchased a 2008 honda civic hybrid. i paid only $16,000. i now get 54 miles per gallon. do the math! before this i had a nissin 200sx, even in that i got 33 mpg. if you want to help improve the planet by reducing your carbon footprint, try a hybird or even a car that gets over 30mph. hopefully, my next car will be totally electric. the oregon state senate is trying to push through a hybrid tax on the citizens of oregon. i'm not too sure how this will impact the future of these cars here in oregon...]]></description>
        <guid><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-5895-41678]]></guid>
        <dc:creator><![CDATA[mitzi56]]></dc:creator>
        <pubDate>Fri, 06 May 2011 14:15:19 -0700</pubDate>
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        <title><![CDATA[YES Electrics and Hybrids are Better on Total Cost Basis]]></title>
        <link><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-5895-41478]]></link>
        <description><![CDATA[The Total cost of a gallon of gas is significantly higher than the pump price.  Oil firms receive our tax dollars for:  exploring, drilling, tool development, pumping, transporting, refining, and delivery to the retailer.  In addition a huge part of the Defense Budget is for securing oil sources for the whole industrial world.  Health costs due to bad air and water are likely $1 Trillion a year or more.  Finally there is the incredible damage to our small atmosphere being used as a dump for CO2 which is now known and an urgent area for attention.   A study was done in California ten years ago when gas was only $1.80/gal that said the actual cost of a gallon of gas was between $7 and $19.  Today, with no alternative, we are being raped at over $4 per gallon. SO... are HYBRIDs and ELECTRICs cheaper than gas vehicles?  YOU BET YOUR SWEET BIPPY THEY ARE !!!!]]></description>
        <guid><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-5895-41478]]></guid>
        <dc:creator><![CDATA[randomotion]]></dc:creator>
        <pubDate>Wed, 04 May 2011 10:25:24 -0700</pubDate>
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        <title><![CDATA[YES IT IS!]]></title>
        <link><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-5895-41442]]></link>
        <description><![CDATA[Approaching 3 years in our 2008 Prius (this June 21). We seem to average around 48 MPG. I get over 50 driving around town. My wife has a heavier foot and rarely engages the so called stealth mode so averages somewhat less. Battery life should be at least 10 years. Toyota is very conservative with charge-discharge parameters so the battery pack never goes above 80% or less than 20% capacity. Wish I had a little more power in electric mode but with a light foot and not running the A/C compressor I can accelerate up to 40 mph. At 41 mph the engine will fire up unless I'm going downhill. The car is hardly a golf cart and could function as a primary family vehicle. With gas now over $4 a gallon in Western NY and likely to be in the $5 per gallon range this summer the worthiness factor will only continue to increase! So, if continuing to send our dollars to governments that hate our guts and work to undermine our country gives you a warm feeling, then enjoy it while you can. I'm already on the waiting list for the plug in Prius!]]></description>
        <guid><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-5895-41442]]></guid>
        <dc:creator><![CDATA[xrayangiodoc]]></dc:creator>
        <pubDate>Tue, 03 May 2011 18:41:12 -0700</pubDate>
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