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    <title><![CDATA[Discussion on Waiting for the punchline ]]></title>
    <link><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-13327]]></link>
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    <language>en-us</language>
    <lastBuildDate>2013-05-23T11:53:19-07:00</lastBuildDate>
             

    <item>
        <title><![CDATA[Corporate shills ... Hopefullness wannabes ...]]></title>
        <link><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-13327-91604]]></link>
        <description><![CDATA[The Fracturalists miss what matters, sadly, so do the Peak Oilers. Using fossil fuels does not provide an end product or a 'good' in return for the fuel. Except for taxi drivers and delivery men, driving a car does not pay for the car nor does it pay for the fuel. Driving the car does not pay for the road or other bits of infrastructure, the military needed to steal the fuel or the finance establishment needed to 'massage' the costs. Everything must be funded with loans which now total hundreds of trillions of dollars. The only way users can meet the (credit) costs is if the fuel is very cheap. When the fuel becomes pricey -- because of diminished supply -- the fuel cost must be added to the cost of expensive credit. The outcome is economies falling underwater and entire countries becoming bankrupt.YOU can point to frakking and 'technology' and I will point toward teetering France, Italy, Spain, Japan ... China, USA, the world's auto industry, the world's finance sector ... all poised at the edge of the abyss or ... over the edge. This is the point when the cost of gaining new fuel cannot be met by the creditworthiness of the fuel consumer, this is 'net energy negative' and the world is very close to that point, two years away or less. This isn't a theory, it is what the crude oil price in world markets say. The markets say the world is becoming poorer and must borrow less ... meanwhile, the cost of new fuel relentlessly increases. Fracking and deepwater drilling are a lot of things ... mainly expensive. It does not matter how much reserves a country has if nobody can afford them. Right now there is rationing by access to credit, when this process is unworkable there will be physical rationing. There will be permanent shortages and the usual gas lines and panic. Permanent: when fuel is unavailable because the customers cannot afford it, there will be diminished fuel available as people become poorer, over time. Sorry to rain on yr parades but the only solution is to get rid of the car(s).]]></description>
        <guid><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-13327-91604]]></guid>
        <dc:creator><![CDATA[steve from virginia]]></dc:creator>
        <pubDate>Fri, 25 Jan 2013 14:21:34 -0800</pubDate>
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        <title><![CDATA[reality check]]></title>
        <link><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-13327-91252]]></link>
        <description><![CDATA[Rooftop solar? EV cars? carbon free/carbon taxed?  How?  No one can afford to pay 2-10x as much for energy.  No one is willing to regress to Amish levels of technology, and there's no money left to blow on pie in the sky dreams.  Stop researching the environment,  stop complaining about the enviromnent. Put your effort into economically effective solutions instead.  find cheap hydrogen,  invent something.  NO OTHER SOLUTION WILL WORK OR BE ACCEPTED.   Anything else is pissing into the wind.   Clear enough guys?]]></description>
        <guid><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-13327-91252]]></guid>
        <dc:creator><![CDATA[copracr]]></dc:creator>
        <pubDate>Tue, 22 Jan 2013 18:38:52 -0800</pubDate>
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        <title><![CDATA[Great post!]]></title>
        <link><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-13327-90824]]></link>
        <description><![CDATA[Keep it up, Chris!]]></description>
        <guid><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-13327-90824]]></guid>
        <dc:creator><![CDATA[masoninman]]></dc:creator>
        <pubDate>Wed, 16 Jan 2013 22:06:20 -0800</pubDate>
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    <item>
        <title><![CDATA[sure and reality takes a back seat?]]></title>
        <link><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-13327-90446]]></link>
        <description><![CDATA[Why not clean SUV because reality has a way of inserting it self. That much weight is not something you can just put change in a way that will impact fuel economy. I own 2 I don't need to care because of my financial security but I don't kid my self that they are clean or fuel efficient. As I posted above fantasy seems to run deep for most people.]]></description>
        <guid><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-13327-90446]]></guid>
        <dc:creator><![CDATA[Kiljoy616]]></dc:creator>
        <pubDate>Sun, 13 Jan 2013 02:16:14 -0800</pubDate>
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        <title><![CDATA[Billion dead well that would give the rest of us some breathing room]]></title>
        <link><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-13327-90456]]></link>
        <description><![CDATA[For most that world is to scary so they will like everything else most humans like to do. They will make it into a parity and make believe it could never happen. Take into consideration the amount of religiosity and well don't expect much from most of society.]]></description>
        <guid><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-13327-90456]]></guid>
        <dc:creator><![CDATA[Kiljoy616]]></dc:creator>
        <pubDate>Sun, 13 Jan 2013 02:09:37 -0800</pubDate>
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        <title><![CDATA[Good Analogy]]></title>
        <link><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-13327-90433]]></link>
        <description><![CDATA[A better analogy is that mankind is like the cane toads in Australia.  The cane toad was transplanted to address a problem with pests and became a greater pest.  The problem with the cane toad in australia is that it has no predators to keep the cane toad populations in balance.  Man does not have a predator to keep population balances stable; disease, war and poverty are the only checks to the imbalance.]]></description>
        <guid><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-13327-90433]]></guid>
        <dc:creator><![CDATA[sboverie]]></dc:creator>
        <pubDate>Sat, 12 Jan 2013 12:28:26 -0800</pubDate>
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        <title><![CDATA[Ironic]]></title>
        <link><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-13327-90420]]></link>
        <description><![CDATA[It is possible that the earth can support 20 bilion people, but it is not that probable.  Using your own words, people will always disagree.  On a talk back that usually is a polite agreement to disagree; but you make it personal and impolite.  Let me assure you that my death will come as will yours.  We actually are closer to agreement on things but the main difference between us is that I do not need to be right and actually would prefer to be wrong about what I wrote.  In a world with over 7 billion humans, there are so many small wars, threats of aggression and misery.  To triple that and think that there will be no aggression of one group against others is magical thinking.  To talk about possible negative changes is not alarmist, it is considering patterns and conditions as a warning to either prevent or prepare for those events.  Besides, your strident comments have not disproved anything other than you have respect for others.do not bother to respond, I will not check this discussion again.]]></description>
        <guid><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-13327-90420]]></guid>
        <dc:creator><![CDATA[sboverie]]></dc:creator>
        <pubDate>Sat, 12 Jan 2013 12:22:13 -0800</pubDate>
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        <title><![CDATA[Soldier on]]></title>
        <link><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-13327-90409]]></link>
        <description><![CDATA[Thanks for sharing your experience, madboy. I hear you and share your internal struggle. It's a burden to understand the data and to be unable to get others, especially decision makers, to comprehend it. But whaddyagonnado, except carry on applying your talents and knowledge the best you can? If you ever get traction in getting your reactor built, please drop me a line about it.]]></description>
        <guid><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-13327-90409]]></guid>
        <dc:creator><![CDATA[Chris Nelder]]></dc:creator>
        <pubDate>Sat, 12 Jan 2013 00:04:13 -0800</pubDate>
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        <title><![CDATA[Doomsday has been delayed]]></title>
        <link><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-13327-90424]]></link>
        <description><![CDATA[Mr. Nelder talks about being called a peak freak and points to a video posted in May, 2008. In it (about 2:30 in), he says expects peak oil to be reached in about 2 years -- or 2010. Now in his current post he's saying &quot;I think well be kept in suspense for at least another year&quot;.If Mr. Nelder misses by a few years, I don't suppose anybody can fault him. But it's the same song I've heard all my life. Back in the '60s it was how we would run out of food and other resources and face global collapse by 2000. Then 2000 arrived and the global standard of living was at an all-time high. That didn't work out, so now it's peak oil that will seal our doom. Except even back in the '60s people were also talking about running out of oil by 2000 and that didn't happen either.Yes, the world is a finite place. If you sound doomsday long enough one day you'll be right. But I've lived over 50 years on this planet and doomsday keeps being delayed. It's delayed not because of the alarmists but because of the people who work on the problem a little bit everyday. They find better ways to produce more food, manufacture using less materials and energy, and yes, even better ways to find and drill for oil and gas.]]></description>
        <guid><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-13327-90424]]></guid>
        <dc:creator><![CDATA[zackers]]></dc:creator>
        <pubDate>Fri, 11 Jan 2013 22:27:14 -0800</pubDate>
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        <title><![CDATA[yes thank you zackers]]></title>
        <link><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-13327-90413]]></link>
        <description><![CDATA[The point is simply this-&gt; there is a huge amount of natural gas waiting for $4.-&gt; $4 IS cheap energyergo .... in the USA we have an abundance of cheap energy.Obvious, no? This is what Nelder is mourning. The presence of cheap energy.]]></description>
        <guid><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-13327-90413]]></guid>
        <dc:creator><![CDATA[James.McMurtry]]></dc:creator>
        <pubDate>Fri, 11 Jan 2013 22:11:40 -0800</pubDate>
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    <item>
        <title><![CDATA[Nope, it's simply supply and demand]]></title>
        <link><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-13327-90412]]></link>
        <description><![CDATA[Gas production in the US has flattened simply because we're producing more than we can use. In fact, natural gas storage for this time of year is at  near record levels for the past 12 years ( http://ir.eia.gov/ngs/ngs.html ). As a result, the price is near the cost of production (around $3.50) and producers have shifted from producing shale gas to producing shale oil.What you are &quot;extrapolating&quot; as the beginning of the end is actually evidence of overabundance.]]></description>
        <guid><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-13327-90412]]></guid>
        <dc:creator><![CDATA[zackers]]></dc:creator>
        <pubDate>Fri, 11 Jan 2013 22:05:05 -0800</pubDate>
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    <item>
        <title><![CDATA[The scientific-minded study of the data... and its terrible implications]]></title>
        <link><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-13327-90406]]></link>
        <description><![CDATA[Chris, I applaud you on capturing perfectly the way I feel.  As a physicist I worked for years on instruments to measure climate change, and when I realized the seriousness of the problem I began a personal quest to find &quot;the most cost-effective solutions.&quot;  Like many other engineers, I soon calculated that energy conservation in buildings and power plant design, re-designing of our cities (and cultural expectations of what a city should be like) to be transit-efficient, wind energy+energy storage systems (= electric cars), and nuclear fission were among the most cost-effective near-term solutions available.  I began to transition toward a career in nuclear energy in anticipation of the &quot;nuclear renaissance&quot; that was obviously coming soon.... except it did not come.  Neither did the transit-efficient cities, or the energy storage systems, and the energy conservation buildings, power plants, and wind turbines are arriving far too slowly to make any significant change in our terrible trajectory.  For two decades now I have watched with stunned amazement as &quot;the band plays on,&quot; marching as it were across the deck of the Titanic to cheer the crowds of passengers wondering about that &quot;loud thumping sound&quot; they imagined they might have heard...You described me well in your paragraph,&quot;...I have found them generally to be quiet, studious, scientifically-minded people who, for whatever reason, latched on to a study of data and eventually realized the terrible implications of it. They dont want society to collapse any more than the next person; indeed, most of them have suffered enormously to prevent it and get their messages out against a tide of well-funded propaganda, to an audience of poor students who mostly dont want to hear it. They have all sacrificed friends, marriages, jobs, and family relations in their quests for the truth....they have also come to terms with their grief... Now they look on collapse with a cool resignation, and perhaps a bit of impatience...&quot;I am still working on a &quot;safer&quot; (better) Fourth Generation nuclear reactor design which will, I hope, be used in Asia (Indian and China) in place of many of the coal and natural-gas power plants that would otherwise be built there.  I am usually not paid for this work--I do it as a hobby (with a team of other philanthropic hobbyist physicists from around North America) because there is no &quot;market&quot; for saving the world 40 years from now.  I am still looking for the way in which my particular talents as a physicist could best help the world in this tragic situation.  Unfortunately, seeing the path we have taken in the past 20 years, I cannot imagine how my efforts could possibly help at this pace.  If I and a thousand scientists like me swim against the current of the other 7 billion with all our strength, we cannot steer this ship away from its now evident destiny: climate change leading to a &quot;significant reduction in earth's human carrying capacity.&quot;That is a fairly cool, resigned, and impatient way of describing a wave of global genocide that will dwarf anything in the 20th century by about two orders of magnitude.  My only consolation is that I won't live long enough to see it.  I feel very sorry for my children however, and I struggle with myself, to avoid recommending to my children that they &quot;avoid the mistake of having another generation of children who will have to live through what is coming.&quot;]]></description>
        <guid><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-13327-90406]]></guid>
        <dc:creator><![CDATA[madboy_heterodyne]]></dc:creator>
        <pubDate>Fri, 11 Jan 2013 22:01:12 -0800</pubDate>
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    <item>
        <title><![CDATA[Cheers, Marcus]]></title>
        <link><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-13327-90399]]></link>
        <description><![CDATA[Most amusing comments from a kindred spirit. JK knows me but go ahead. I wish K.K. well. It is refreshing to write about something other than data once in a while. I might make it a top o' the year tradition. Drive on...]]></description>
        <guid><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-13327-90399]]></guid>
        <dc:creator><![CDATA[Chris Nelder]]></dc:creator>
        <pubDate>Fri, 11 Jan 2013 18:40:04 -0800</pubDate>
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    <item>
        <title><![CDATA[Reading your posts I've already identified one ]]></title>
        <link><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-13327-90390]]></link>
        <description><![CDATA[Ok, how about if before you are allowed to buy a gun or ammunition you are subject to a day or more of psychological testing to determine if you are sane enough to responsibly possess a firearm?  Add to that jail time if your gun is used by someone else to commit a crime.]]></description>
        <guid><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-13327-90390]]></guid>
        <dc:creator><![CDATA[riverat1]]></dc:creator>
        <pubDate>Fri, 11 Jan 2013 15:49:42 -0800</pubDate>
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    <item>
        <title><![CDATA[Real science]]></title>
        <link><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-13327-90389]]></link>
        <description><![CDATA[You have yet to demonstrate that you know what real science and research is.  Most of the things that climate scientist have expected to happen are happening, often faster than they expected.]]></description>
        <guid><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-13327-90389]]></guid>
        <dc:creator><![CDATA[riverat1]]></dc:creator>
        <pubDate>Fri, 11 Jan 2013 15:43:41 -0800</pubDate>
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    <item>
        <title><![CDATA[Ideology doesn't work in science]]></title>
        <link><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-13327-90388]]></link>
        <description><![CDATA[adornoe,  you have demonstrated here time and again an ideologically driven agenda that largely ignores the real world.  You wouldn't recognize the scientific method if it came up and slapped you in the face.  You'll never believe what climate scientists find unless by some miracle they end up finding evidence that agrees with your ideology.]]></description>
        <guid><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-13327-90388]]></guid>
        <dc:creator><![CDATA[riverat1]]></dc:creator>
        <pubDate>Fri, 11 Jan 2013 15:32:23 -0800</pubDate>
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        <title><![CDATA[Another side of Nelder!]]></title>
        <link><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-13327-90373]]></link>
        <description><![CDATA[Thanks Chris.  I liked YOUR observations ALOT.  You have a talent at seeing the big picture and articulating the same (without stats, graphs and hard data).  You do that type reporting even better but it's very nice to see this side of your talent as well.  DRIVE ON SOLDIER!  DRIVE ON!I'll need to contact Kuntsler now and tell him he has a competitor kindred spirit that understood &quot;the Long Emergency&quot; and reframed it in the Long Contraction.   Do you recall Helicopter Ben's doublespeak  telling us he was taking us in for a &quot;soft Landing&quot;.Along with the theme of the article,  I recently got to watch Al Gore's &quot;An Inconvenient Truth&quot;  on NETFLIX for the first time.  I still can't get the time exposure satellite images of the melting glaciers out of my head.  Ironically over at Energy &amp; Capital diaspora, our buddy K.K. is telling us that Al's company is moving dollars out of green energy.  I think part of our societal zombification is majorly attributable to TMI (too much information) and TMW (too much work).  We don't know what to believe in a gray semi-factual world.I chose to take the &quot;RED PILL&quot;  abnd Iwe've been to the bottom of the rabbit hole.   Now the science no longer seems like magic.]]></description>
        <guid><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-13327-90373]]></guid>
        <dc:creator><![CDATA[Marcus Of Arrington]]></dc:creator>
        <pubDate>Fri, 11 Jan 2013 13:01:01 -0800</pubDate>
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        <title><![CDATA[Good Analogy]]></title>
        <link><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-13327-90369]]></link>
        <description><![CDATA[I like that ...yeast.  We've all heard the virus analogy from &quot;The Matrix&quot;  fame.  Some people will fight to get back into the Matrix...  Get Back!  He's gonna POP!]]></description>
        <guid><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-13327-90369]]></guid>
        <dc:creator><![CDATA[Marcus Of Arrington]]></dc:creator>
        <pubDate>Fri, 11 Jan 2013 12:39:04 -0800</pubDate>
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        <title><![CDATA[Thank You Andrew]]></title>
        <link><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-13327-90368]]></link>
        <description><![CDATA[I'm glad you are not sleeping at the switch.  These two are viscous.]]></description>
        <guid><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-13327-90368]]></guid>
        <dc:creator><![CDATA[Marcus Of Arrington]]></dc:creator>
        <pubDate>Fri, 11 Jan 2013 12:35:31 -0800</pubDate>
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        <title><![CDATA[jumping the shark on the collapse of civilization as we know it]]></title>
        <link><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-13327-90362]]></link>
        <description><![CDATA[My question is:  If we had no media and/or knowledge of these issues, how would their realities affects us?  Would we be just as stressed?  Would we worry?  Does or worrying do any good anyway?  Arent we acting on inaction or distractions from the most critical issues? Cant we just reboot our economic system and debt like so many civilizations have in the past?  Should we just maintain, or should we start rebuilding now as if the fall of Rome has already happened?  If we ignore the global and economic issues, and do our best for the earth and each other, will it all work out anyway? After all:  Didnt we basically vote for sex and drugs in the last election, rather than for real solutions to the debt and energy?  Will who marries who and where we can get a joint really matter when the fall comes? IF the fall comes?  When there is a critical threat to the body, or even to a computer, all non-critical systems shut down in favor of the most necessary.  Why arent we doing this as a nation as well?  When I get in a car wreck, I dont really think about sex and drugs.  When I rehab my spinal injury I dont really think about abortion and other social issues.  I focus on walking again, etc.  We cant all just sit in a tent and protest those who have more insignificant things than we do.  After all, our 99% is still in the 1% world-wide!]]></description>
        <guid><![CDATA[http://www.smartplanet.com/forum/discussions/1-13327-90362]]></guid>
        <dc:creator><![CDATA[cliffmeixner@...]]></dc:creator>
        <pubDate>Fri, 11 Jan 2013 11:13:50 -0800</pubDate>
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