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Why I still hesitate to buy an American-made vehicle

By | January 19, 2010, 7:32 AM PST

Before heading back to his last semester as a college undergraduate, my son told us we should buy an American car. I want to do the patriotic thing, but hesitate because I still sense reliability over the longterm favors a Toyota or Honda.

My 1997 Chevy Silverado has been reliable for the four years I’ve owned it, but has one costly meltdown a year. Granted, the truck is 13 years old, but only has 91k miles on it. I ask: would a 13-year Nissan or Toyota truck have an annual meltdown? I think not. Our several experiences with Toyotas and Hondas have been in a word, terrific.

My 1997 Silverado: Things rot out undeneath.

My 1997 Silverado: Things rot out undeneath.

Things underneath the Silverado tend to rust out: one year on the stiffling hot day when we were going to move my daughter into college, the oil cooler lines failed. Transmission oil turned the driveway into a slippery mess adding to the stress of the day. Perhaps the breakdown was prophetic: my daughter transferred after the first semester.

I just got off the phone with Joe, my mechanic, his real name. He delivered the bad news: an $831bill to replace rusted out front brake calipers, real wheel cylinders, master cylinder and the booster that provides the power to power brakes. ALL HAD FAILED. Various brake lines have rotted out, too.

I knew the front calipers were failing because for about year, they were producing a burning brake smell from not retracting properly. The real wheel cylinders were functioning, but the bleed nipples were so rusted, Joe couldn’t remove the air out of the system and bring up the brake peddle. Then, he couldn’t bleed the brakes because the master cylinder was leaking. Fluid got into the booster (that big round cylinder affixed to firewall on the driver’s wide) and damaged it.

I wondered if he had misdiagnosed a single problem and went crazy replacing parts. But I know him to be very conservative and, frankly, everything that failed was consistent with the truck’s repair history.

Ok, so scratch GM. How about a Ford? The company, which declined bailout funds, is on a roll with handsome lineup of thoroughly contemporary vehicles. When I was growing up, Fords were the least reliable of the big Three auto makers and those perceptions die hard. My last Ford experience was 1991 Taurus wagon which started falling apart at 90k miles.

Consumer Reports ranks Chevy ahead of Nissan or Toyota in full size pickups. Honda, Nissan and Toyota in that order win on compact pickups. But the real test is what these vehicles will be doing in ten years. Consumer Reports shows the Silverado’s reliability steadily improving since 2000. I found a review of my truck with headline that precisely capture my experience: “The older the rock gets, the more it breaks down.

I read where longtime and outspoken GM executive Bob Lutz (how did he survive all the recent purges at GM!?) said consumers won’t buy from GM because it took government bailout money.

That may be true, but that’s not the problem. Japanese automakers have sold reliable vehicles in America for 30 years so even GM had matched their quality for the past decade and I don’t believe it has, the company would still be behind. And the fact is, it is (Cash for Clunkers helped get some of those lingering bad memories off the road, though!).

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John Dodge

About John Dodge

John Dodge was a contributing editor for SmartPlanet from 2009 to 2010.

John Dodge

John Dodge

Contributing Editor

John Dodge has written for the Wall Street Journal, Boston Globe, PC Week (now eWeek), EDN, Design News, Electronic Business, Bio-IT World, Health-IT World, Lowell Sun, Haverhill Gazette and Newburyport Daily News. He is based in Massachusetts.

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John Dodge

John Dodge

John Dodge prides himself on completely independent journalism. His opinions, observations and reporting are not influenced by any financial holdings. He holds no shares in computer, electronics, software or Internet companies. He also has no business affiliations with organizations except with those for which he creates content as a freelancer.

He writes for SmartPlanet and is not an employee of CBS.

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0 Votes
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RE: Why I still hesitate to buy an American-made vehicle
You didn't mention the 12 year old Toyota pickup that you bought as a 6 year old used vehicle... How did that one hold up ??

Running a year with the smell of burning brakes is just neglect , not a measure of vehicle quality. Bad habits cost money !
Posted by curiousgeorge1940
19th Jan 2010
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RE: Why I still hesitate to buy an American-made vehicle
The burning brake was interrmittent and on one side. Not sure I know what Toyota truck you're talking about, but here's a rundown of Japanese company cars I've owned and how'd I'd grade them:

84 Honda Prelude - A
85 Honda CRX - A
96 Acura TSX - A-
98 Toyota Sienna minivan - A+
87 Acura Legend - A
Posted by John Dodge
19th Jan 2010
0 Votes
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This is why letting a reputation slip can be fatal for any company...
...or an entire industry. The bad impressions left by bad consumer experiences can literally last generations.

My first car was a 72 Ford Gran Torino. Typical of most American cars of that era, it wasn't worth keeping over 100,000 miles.

After that, for over 20 years I owned a 79 Toyota Corolla hatchback. Even after I had purchased subsequent cars, I kept it as my secondary car for doing "dirty work", such as days spent parked at the beach, camping, or other missions where I wouldn't fret over exposure to abuse. I figured I'd keep the car until it eventually died or needed some repair more than a few hundred dollars. After over 250,000 miles, that never happened, and I finally had to just give it away when I moved out-of-state since taking it with me would have cost far more than it was worth. For all I know, someone's probably still driving it past 300k.

In 98, my wife purchased another Ford, a Mercury Mountaineer. Although we generally like the car, it's reliability has been far less than stellar. It's original transmission melted down at 30,000 miles (fortunately, under warranty). Subsequently, we've had the radio, torque converter, differential, electrical system, and other items prematurely fail. Advice to Ford owners; sell before you hit 120,000. I wish I had. But now that I've put a several grand into keeping it going, I expect to get a few more years out of it before giving up.

Meanwhile, my other car is a 90 Mazda Miata. Other than an expected clutch replacement and now leaky top (it is 20 years old now after all) this car has been nearly bulletproof, and still gets better mileage than most "eco" cars. I wouldn't think twice about buying another one, whereas I can't imagine the deal an American make would have to offer me to get me to bite.

The point is that it will take generations for Ford and what is left of the "American" nameplates to undo the damage that they have allowed accrued over my lifetime. Like countless other American's, I'd prefer to "buy American" as well. But unfortunately, the American nameplates have not proven themselves worthy of my further investment.

Also keep in mind that for some time now, "buying American" has been somewhat of a misnomer; It's likely that more of that new Ford, GM or Chrysler was built out-of-country than that new Toyota, BMW, or Kia.
Posted by JohnMcGrew@...
20th Jan 2010
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RE: Why I still hesitate to buy an American-made vehicle
Toyota trucks? Have you heard of the recent recall for the CHASSIS rusting out...before that they were stealthily buying them back and scrapping them when they could...
Posted by rby09
20th Jan 2010
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RE: Why I still hesitate to buy an American-made vehicle
I own a 1998 Toyota Sienna van; the tranny is starting to fail at 140,000 miles. Other than that, and other basic repairs, it's been great.

Compare that to my 1993 Dodge Caravan, which went through FIVE transmissions, THREE ABS systems, and whose tailgate came misaligned from the factory, forcing me to have the entire interior carpet and underliner replaced (all at Chrysler's expense, thank goodness!)

You couldn't pay me to drive another Chrysler.
Posted by boothby171
20th Jan 2010
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RE: Why I still hesitate to buy an American-made vehicle
We have never owned a foreign nameplate car. I have a 2008 Ford F-150, with less than 15K miles and my wife drives a 2007 Ford 500, with lewss than 50K miles. They wouldn't be that new except for extenuating circumstances. We had a 2004 Ford Taurus that someone turned left into us without paying attention to what she was doing. Our daughter still drives the 1997 Taurus with ~130K or so, a few minor mishaps hers and someone else's, it is till going with no major problems. Our 1989 Aerostar on th eother hand had its transmissions rebuilt three times in 170K miles, other thant that it had no problems either, my 1999 F-150 was sold to my son to replace his Civic, and then someone rearended him on the interstate forcing him into the cable barrier, totalling it. It had over 100K when he took it over. Must be certain models that are having problems. I wanted to buy a Silverado, but it didn't have the head room of the F-150, so I bought the Ford. The 500 had so much back seat room (enough for me at 6' 7" to sit comfortably--does any Japanese/Korean/German/English/Indian/Chinese branded vehicle have that kind of room? I don't know. I know some of the smaller Fords, I can't even get into the driver's seat.) it sold us immediately over the equivalent Chevy which ahd no back seat room comparatively.
Posted by dhays
20th Jan 2010
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RE: Why I still hesitate to buy an American-made vehicle
I guess you can't edit a posting, like you can on ZDNet, lews is less in my previous post. My spelling is good, my typing is poor.
Posted by dhays
20th Jan 2010
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Never buy GM - power windows fail at 60,000 miles??
My story is about GM power windows. I have 2 GM cars: a 4-door 2001 Oldsmobile and a 4-door 2002 Buick. Out of the 8 windows on the cars, I have replaced 6 power window units to the tune of $400-$500 each. When one dropped into the door while I was driving, I got hit by a rock thrown by a truck.

At 30,000 miles, I asked a mechanic if one of the car was reliable and he said that the power windows fail at 60,000. I laughed because windows don't know how many miles a car has. But, a little after, back 2 windows failed on the Oldsmobile. I don't have any kids and the back windows are hardly ever used.

I searched the internet and found that at least 3% failures were reported, which means that the number was probably 5-10%. I now have over 100K miles on both cars (can't afford a new car when I have to spend for power windows) and more windows have failed over time. I complained vehemently to GM when the problems recurred and they just said that the cars were over 60K miles and out of warranty. This despite them knowing about the problem.

I can live with problems as long as the manufacturer stands behind their products, but clearly this is a culture problem. GM hasn't changed that culture. As far as I'm concerned, Obama should have let them go under because they can never recover from deserting their customers. It's sort of like an unfaithful husband - you can never trust them again.
Posted by colthouse69
20th Jan 2010
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RE: Why I still hesitate to buy an American-made vehicle
Well Japanese are also prone to problems. I had a 2002 Nissan Altima with a bad catalytic converter that cost me 2500 bucks when it took out my engine as well. This was at 160000 km. The vehicle was well maintained and the only warning sign was when it burned some oil. By then though the damage was already done. Nissan was not frieldly either about a well known problem. Last May I purchased a second hand Lexus with 72000 km. Now the passenger side back window will not go down. So I don't think anyone can say the Japanese are problem free by any means.
Posted by striker67
20th Jan 2010
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RE: Why I still hesitate to buy an American-made vehicle
I really don't think you can make any sort of judgement based on a single, used vehicle.
Your experiences with the Silverado could just as easily be attributable to the previous
owner's standard of care. Was it stored outside? Was it parked on grass? Did they drive it
in winter and never wash the undercarriage?

It also sounds as though you have unrealistic expectations for reliability. After 14
years, you're surprised about an $831 bill for brake work? If those parts were all
original--and it sounds as though they were--then brake maintenance on the truck runs
about $60 a year. What's happening is that you'retaking the hit for a decade-plus of
deferred maintenance. To an extent, mileage and time are interchangeable.

Nothing about your experience sounds unreasonable, nor could you expect to avoid a similar
experience with a Japanese truck (or car).

David B. Traver Adolphus
Associate Editor, Hemmings Motor News
Posted by proscriptus
20th Jan 2010
0 Votes
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Vehicle reliability and USED vehicles
So, you blast a brand for your experiences with a USED vehicle? Now if you purchased new and kept up the vehicle, go right ahead fire away. Just do so after you properly document your care of the vehicle, usage of the vehicle and the environment where the vehicle was operated.

As to rusting, it depends on location and care more than anything else. What was your usage of the vehicle (farm, ranch)? Not stating the information which affects the results up front makes your diatribe on rusting meaningless. Give the full details, don't cherry pick to prove your point. Anyone can do that.

Some items that affect rusting:

Environmental effects:
- Areas with ice and snow. The road solutions can be harsh on vehicles and promote rusting.
- Areas around salt water.
- Areas with high acidic soils (say OK or TX as examples)
- Near / downwind from an active volcano.
- In an acid rain zone (some major cities).

Care:
- How often the vehicle was washed?
- How often the undercarriage is washed?
- Are body drain holes regular checked and cleaned?
Posted by PeterBoyles
20th Jan 2010
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RE: Why I still hesitate to buy an American-made vehicle
Funny the only bad American car I ever owned was a Ford Probe and I think the Mazda built badged Ford was made to tarnish American built car's reputations even worse. My Dad had owned several foreign cars including Honda and his needed a crank and main bearings at 34k. His 87 accord had eaten a crank. Three flanged exhaust systems, 2 rear control arms on the drivers side and a few other minor issues before 120k when he traded it for a Jeep (even worse). My advice to the American consumer is buy what your comfortable with, but don't necessarily listen to the biased bloggers associated with ZDnet.
Posted by partman1969@...
20th Jan 2010
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On Vehicles
John, your son is still forgiveably young, ignorant and inexperienced. So we'll just chalk up his "Buy American" as parrotting what his friends told him.

The true american buys the most cost effective item that does what they want it to do. And defends furiously their right to do so. Unfortunately, Detroit focused too much on sex appeal, frequent roll-over sales, and high maintenance at the cost of poor mpg, and considerably greater consumer costs for new vehicles, repairs, and loss of utility.

Sure, Buy American if there's no other difference. Otherwise, you have to use market forces to get manufacturers to do what you want. if that means they go out of business and thousands of people lose their jobs, then they obviously didn't get the message.

My vehicles through the years;

'66 VW Beetle: B+
+ Reliable, easy to repair and maintain, good mpg, bought and sold for $600 and put 26,000 miles on it the year I had it.
- Small, parts difficult to procure.

'81 Ford Escort (Std): A++
+ Most reliable small car made by Detroit in the past 30 years, fairly easy to service and repair, good mpg, one of the highest cargo capacity small cars. Throw a pair of radial chains on the front wheels and I'd go places even 4-wheelers wouldn't dare.
- Oil filter was a pain to reach crammed between the engine block and the firewall.

'85 Ford F150: A
+ Never had a problem with it. Joy to service.
- Like most 2 wheel rear drive pickup trucks had a tendency to fishtail in snowy/icy conditions unless you put at least 300 extra pounds in the bed behind the wheel wells.

'87 Ford Escort GT (Std): B+
+ Same pluses as the '81 Escort, plus it was sexier, ran it in Europe and the US on both regular and unleaded without problems (yeah, had to replace the cat converter after Europe)
- Same minues as the '81 escort, had a tendency to overheat, European insurance companies considered it a performance sports car and charged premiums accordingly /laugh /cry.

'88 Ford Aerostar XLT: B-
+ great seating capacity, great cargo capacity, excellent visibility for driver, all-wheel drive a God-send in snow and ice.
- Engine compartment cramped and difficult to work in. A/C refrigerants changed during this model's life span and retrofit upgrades not satisfactory. Front end problems frequent, tie rod ends and bears tended to fail every 40K miles.

'01 Dodge Caravan: C
+ low to ground passenger area and both side passenger doors makes getting the elderly in and out much easier.
- expensive, poor mpg, poor power, cardboard box on ice, does not survive low impact (>5 mph, 25 mph) collisions.

'06 Chrysler Town and Country: C
+ fold down seats give good variable cargo capabilities, as with the Caravan low to ground passenger area and both side passenger doors makes getting the elderly in and out much easier.
- beast is a dog with poor power, poor mpg, frequent leaks in coolant, lubricant, and brake systems, electronic controls started failing at the 3 year point and seem to be cascading, and similar problems in icy conditions to the Caravan.

'05 Nissan Sentra (Std): A
+ Closest vehicle in capability and price to the Ford Escort which Ford stupidly discontinued under the false impression that the Focus was better. Good mpg, moderately good cargo capacity,
- slightly less rear passenger room, tendency to eat timing belts every 20-25K miles early in lifespan (current belts holding up after 40K miles - keep fingers crossed)
Posted by Dr_Zinj
20th Jan 2010
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RE: Why I still hesitate to buy an American-made vehicle
I had a 1996 Ford Taurus that needed major engine work, which I had done at the dealer. I was constantly told it would be ready in a few days?which went on for weeks! To add to my misery, I found out that there was a recall on the engine for exactly this problem, but only for later models. I was out a lot of money for this.

I also had an issue with the cruise control where it would not disengage when you hit the brakes. The dealers response was that a replacement part was not available, so they could do nothing. They were ready to let me drive out with a serious problem. Eventually I got them to see it my way and disconnect the cruise control until it could be fixed.

If I don't trust them to fix my car, why would I buy one from them?
Posted by John73
20th Jan 2010
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RE: Why I still hesitate to buy an American-made vehicle
I bought American (blind patriotism) for my first 20 years of car ownership. Never again. In 6 years owning an Acura, I've had no repairs. In only 2 years of owning a Chrysler before that, I had electrical failure, a power window fell inside the door so that the door had to be torn apart to fix it, the seals started leaking water into the passenger compartment, and the transmission needed repairs. The car only had 20k on it when I traded it in. Even when the car arrived, I could put my entire THUMB through the space between the misaligned trunk lid. Yes, it was all under warranty, but that doesn't replace the time and hassle of dealing with all of that crap. I've had similar troubles when I owned Ford and GM products. The UAW people making American cars have a LONG history of not caring about quality. The Japanese workers obviously take more pride in the products they make.

Reality? American cars have taken a chunk of my life away. THAT's the real cost of buying American. I can't get back the countless hours I spent in waiting rooms while American car companies fixed the myriad troubles I've had. When I heard GM and Chrysler were in trouble, I literally said, "let them die off and be replaced by companies who give a damn about what they make." In my mind, the bailout was a mistake that undermines capitalism. If a company cannot provide products people want to buy, they SHOULD fail.

In a nutshell, it shouldn't feel like you are making a major SACRIFICE to buy American cars. That's an indication we just need to give up building cars and let somebody else do it.
Posted by BillDem
20th Jan 2010
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Mixed experiences
I think the reliability of Japanese cars (Euro cars are not better if not worse than American) is usually overblown. They are generally better, but not always the pinnacles of reliability they are made out to be

81 Toyota Corolla - A-
87 Toyota Pickup - B
85 Honda CRX (kept only for 30,000)
96 Honda Accord - B (tranny dead at 150,000)
96 Chrysler Town and Country - B- (Those dumb transmissions!! A- for everything else)
03 Chrysler T&C - C No transmission problems, regular little issues at 135,000)
2009 Mazda6 - Very new
Posted by stano360
20th Jan 2010
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RE: Why I still hesitate to buy an American-made vehicle
buying any toyota now is okay if one can keep it for the wished for long mileage. the only problem is will it stop when one wants it to. that did not work well for the state policemean and his family in san diego. they were all killed when their car ran away with them in it. this is a fairly constant problem that toypota refuses to
recognize and has come up with NO fix, just some ******** about front floor mats. of course our depart of transportation did not help by ignoring the problem for a numvber of years feeling that it was not worth investigating.
i cannot think that either imports or american built cars have an advantage. i have owned both and could add anecdotal stories but they prove nothing.
.
Posted by stilt21
20th Jan 2010
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RE: Why I still hesitate to buy an American-made vehicle
As for caring for my 97 Silverado, I wash it 3-4 times a year and it is
largely outside (cripe, it's a truck!), but 91k miles attests to very
light duty use. No plowing and body, engine and tranny are in good
shape, knock on wood. Only rust is above the windshield (common in
Silverados, Suburban's et al.) and seriously on low quality chrome-
covered rear bumper.

BTW, one more grade for my Japanese vehicles: my 1995 Kubota B2100
tractor with a bucket and 52 inch moving at 510 hours.

A Freakin' Plus!!!
Posted by John Dodge
20th Jan 2010
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RE: Why I still hesitate to buy an American-made vehicle
For a blog titled SmartPlanet and tag-lined "Thinking Tech", this is a fatuous and lazy piece.

If I understand you correctly, you would buy these:
Toyota - Sequoia, Sienna, Highlander (made in Indianna); Camry, Avalon, Venza (Kentucky); Tundra, Tacoma (Texas)
Nissan - Altima, Maxima, Xterra, Pathfinder (Tennessee)
Honda - Element, CRV, Accord, Accura (Ohio); Civic (Ohio & Indiana)
Subaru - Outback (Indiana)
BMW - X5, X6 (South Carolina)

and you would not buy these:
GM - Equinox, Torrent (Canada); C2, HHR, Aveo, Escalade, Avalanche, Suburban,Yukon XL (Mexico)
Ford - Transit (Turkey); various F-series (Mexico); Crown Victoria (Canada)
Chrysler - Challenger, Charger, 300, Grand Caravan (Canada); PT Cruiser, Journey, Ram 2500/3500 (Mexico).

Or am I confused and it's the *ownership* that's important to you meaning you would buy a Volvo (Ford-owned) or a Saab (GM-owned) and not a Chrysler (Italian-owned, formerly German-owned)?

For what its worth, my vehicle list includes:
1968 International Scout 800A - Bought used,let go at ~100k miles due to major body cancer, noise and 52 mph maximum "economical" cruise speed (17 mpg at 50-52 mph dropped to 13 mpg by 55 mph or so).
1986 Ford Ranger 4wd - bought new, got torched at 155k in 1992;
1990 Ford F-150 4wd - bought used, still have at 188k.
1992 Nissan Sentra - bought used, got rear-ended while parked on the street at ~130k
1999 Subaru Forester - bought used, still have at 165k.

Based on my experience, one should expect mechanical issues with all older (10+ years) and/or high mileage vehicles. Rubber seals, lines and hoses leak and split with age. Salt eats everything metal. Parts of all types fatigue, crack and break. Don't want the ongoing maintenance issues, buy new and often with the attendant continuous payments. Don't want to stay on the continuous payment tread mill, buy used or keep your bought-new until the annual repair costs approaching annual loan costs. Your truck is obviously not your primary vehicle so absolute reliablity is not an issue. A $900 brake job is not much a deal breaker for me for a truck that is paid off, just ongoing maintenance costs amounting to two loan payments.

For your information, there were NO comparable "import brand" full-size pickups in 1997 (although yours may well have been made in Mexico). The closest would be the Toyota Tundra which debuted 3 years later and you would be likely to be chasing engine problems instead of brake problems. The Nissan Titan full-sized pickup didn't debut until 2004 and does not have 10 year reliability data available yet.
Posted by Dave S2
20th Jan 2010
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RE: Why I still hesitate to buy an American-made vehicle
Note I said cars from Japanese companies. Of course, I know Toyotas
and Nissans are made in the U.S., but the cultures and priorities in
those factories were set long ago by smart Japanese auto executives
who filled the quality void left by American car makers.

So Dave S2, your point about American cars made offshore or south of
the border isn't as smarty pants as you think!

Secondly, I am doing what just about every consumer does: projects a
future vehicle purchase on past experience. I also bought the `97
Silverado in 2006 when both Toyota and Nissan had full size pickups.

Granted, everyone's experience is different, but my own maps pretty
closely with the results you'll find in Consumer Reports.
Posted by John Dodge
20th Jan 2010
0 Votes
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RE: Why I still hesitate to buy an American-made vehicle
I would find it difficult to believe modern youth would still endorse American autos for the plain reason: they all seem to want a civic a subaru or mitsubishi with a 6" exiting fartpack muffler on them. The fact that your son would have any sense of patriotism at all (especially with today's politics) is commendable.
Posted by partman1969@...
20th Jan 2010
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RE: Why I still hesitate to buy an American-made vehicle
Mr. Dodge I have to believe American car quality issues have more to do with the bottom line. Unions set their demands which translated to not only higher cost but also cuts in quality. Funny you never addressed this when you look at the non union shops manufacturing these so called better quality foreighn cars.
Posted by partman1969@...
20th Jan 2010
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quality is a perception
I submit that both american and japanese cars might have similar failure rates, but the japanese companies stand behind their cars. The japanese companies fix or recall defects, while american companies not only don't care about quality, but when a defect is revealed, they walk away.
Posted by colthouse69
20th Jan 2010
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RE: Why I still hesitate to buy an American-made vehicle
I beg to differ. Over the past few years, I've owned 3 Buicks, 1 Toyota and 1 Suzuki. The longest that I've owned any of these is 20 years (One of the Buicks). The worst of the lot was the Toyota. All the Buicks were reliable. In addition, they were far more comfortable than the Toyota or Suzuki.

Before I bought my last vehicle (a Buick Lucerne), I looked extensively at all imports. None could match the Buick for a combination of price, features, room and comfort.

This "import quality legend" may have been true at one time but not now. I'll continue to buy North American vehicles.
Posted by news.letter@...
20th Jan 2010
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RE: Why I still hesitate to buy an American-made vehicle
Partman,

Good point about higher cost of American vehicles: new decently
optioned Tundra is $30k w comparable Silverados north of $40k...
Posted by John Dodge
20th Jan 2010
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RE: Why I still hesitate to buy an American-made vehicle
News.letter,

Exception noted. Buick may be the exception in GM's lineup.

JD
Posted by John Dodge
20th Jan 2010
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RE: Why I still hesitate to buy an American-made vehicle
John,
Amen, Brother!

I thought you'd appreciate a letter I sent to Sen. Kay Bailey
Hutchinson regarding American cars and the bailout money....

Dear Senator Hutchinson,

Respectfully, I must disagree with your stance on providing loans to
the Big 3 American automakers. To use an analogy, a loan will
merely put a Band-Aid on a wound that is still bleeding without
treating the root cause.
By not providing the loan, the Big 3 will be forced to declare
Chapter 11, which is exactly what they need to do. This will get
them out from under the burdensome union contracts that are sucking
the very life from these companies. Even if the UAW makes
concessions under the loan program, this is not going to be enough.

Why is it that Toyota and Kia recently announced they are adding
additional manufacturing plants in the United States? It is because
their business is growing and the plants will be in "Right to Work"
states where they will not be unnecessarily burdened by high cost
union labor. While Toyota, Honda, Hyundai, etc. may be considered
"foreign" because their corporate headquarters are in another
country, their automobiles are more American than the cars built by
the Big 3.

A couple of years ago, when Bill Ford was the CEO of Ford, he had a
TV commercial where he urged the American people to "buy American",
using the Ford Mustang as an example. That same Mustang was
assembled in Mexico using 70% foreign parts. Contrast this with the
Toyota Camry which is manufactured in American using 90% American
made parts. Yes Bill, I buy American - I drive a Honda.

Should Chapter 11 not work and the Big 3 have to file Chapter 7,
what are we really loosing? The jobs will shift to the Right to
Work states in the South, including Texas.
Remember Packard, Studebaker and AMC? Those auto makers are no
longer with us and we got along just fine. We will be just fine,
too if GM, Ford and Chrysler go the way of the Dodo Bird.

Respectfully,
Tom Harrington
Posted by tom.r.harrington@...
20th Jan 2010
0 Votes
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RE: Why I still hesitate to buy an American-made vehicle
You must lead a very sheltered life. Toyota builds their cars in Georgetown, Kentucky, USA.
And their trucks in Princeton, Indiana, USA.
Honda builds their cars in Marysvile, Ohio, USA. I have personally been to both of the car assembly plants and I can assure you that the cars are being made in the USA...
Posted by 1157page
20th Jan 2010
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3 fords in 30 years
I bought a Ford courier in 1977 my first truck. I put 187K on the truck and it ran when I sold it for 500 bucks. Then 1988 when I bought a Ranger it ran for over 225K and lasted until 1999 when I bought a 4x4 Ranger super cab flex fuel truck. I still drive today with over 148k miles it run great. I know one thing about cars or trucks if you do maintain them on schedule or as I do before schedule. I change oil every 2500 miles and my vehicles last a long time and oh yeah they have all been American vehicles and I was NEVER left on the side of the road with a breakdown NEVER. My Toyota and Nissan friends always ask me how I do it and I tell Maintenance my man Maintenance. BUT American while you can I am going to buy a 2012 Ford Ranger with the same motor I have now because it is a solid a motor as I have ever seen. I haul a boat, go to the beach over highway 17 the 2nd worse pas in California.
Posted by surfnschultz@...
20th Jan 2010
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RE: Why I still hesitate to buy an American-made vehicle
Hi, John!

Possibly you haven't noticed, busy as you are, but 1997 was something like 13 years ago.

That was back in the bad old days, when quality and Chevy weren't necessarily synonymous.

But you...may...have noticed that GM has recently gone through a somewhat-painful bankruptcy and downsizing, and they're committed (more or less) to quality and producing vehicles that will compete head-to-head with those from the Land of the Rising Sun. Which anyway are now generally produced in the good 'ol Southrun USA, dontcha know.

Like various prickly computer editorialists - does JC Dvorak ring any bells? - you're probably doing the "flame-bait" thing to get the views and ratings and keep your job. OK, I can swing with that, but please *please* PLEASE recognize that times have changed, and buying AMERICAN isn't a bad thing any longer.

Your readership will thank you....
Posted by Heimdall222
20th Jan 2010
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Chat
I think Honda or Toyota car on the car, but I do not know the car obviously Amarikan

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Posted by tahsin29
20th Jan 2010
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RE: Why I still hesitate to buy an American-made vehicle
they all rust out. esp brake and fuel lines and systems, just check out the recalls and service bulitins.at least toyota openly is just recalling for frame problems.
as a retired auto mechanic who worked as one for 45 years.this is not a new problem and will keep happening till uncle sam mandates stainless steel for all the major systems like these.
Posted by charlieg1
20th Jan 2010
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Made From What??!!
Since Japan doesn't have an unending supply of steel, wouldn't it seem many, if not all, Japanese cars are made from scrapped U.S. automobiles, and theoretically, are "part" American-made vehicle??
Posted by escapepod
20th Jan 2010
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RE: Why I still hesitate to buy an American-made vehicle
1972 mercedes 260 pretty good 200,000 +
1977 mercedes 240D 500,000 miles + ...died of body rot
1979 mercedes 300d 400,000 miles + still see it on the road from
time to time with current owner
1984 mercedes 190D crap engine failed early leaving car worthless
1984 honda accord coupe loved this car but roof rotted away to swiss
cheese
1990 Olds Silhouette kevlar composite bodied on space frame 279,000
miles on original engine and trans low parts cost very underrated
car, body still looks perfect
1993 ford e350 box truck... not bad but frame finally rusting out
1994 saturn sl2 another great little plastic on space frame under
rated vehicle, yes check the oil regularly, but 230,000 miles and
counting.. bodies don't rot so mechanical repairs are worthwhile!
this technology should never have been abandoned by GM !!!
1994 ford probe LOVED DRIVING THIS CAR but I got too many speeding
tickets and valves were starting to sound really funky at start up
so I traded it in on a ....
1996 chevy impala SS .. my "newest" car... nice design, good engine,
but otherwise crap! GM rep told me "yes that's clearly a defective
design but out of warranty repairs are the customers responsibility
whether the design is defective or not" this car made me hate GM!
the only thing that helped was online owners forums where you could
get fixes to common problems the dealers couldn't even fix. finally
sold for pennies due to massive body rot
most recent purchase - 1995 ford E150 with under 100,000 miles...
still resolving its quirks... fingers crossed.
Posted by aklsdjfhaklsdfh
20th Jan 2010
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RE: Why I still hesitate to buy an American-made vehicle
I have had both good and bad luck with endurance and warranted service on many of the vehicles I have owned over the years. I still have a 1976 suburban, which looks and drives like new with about 120,000 miles, much of it pulling a very heavy boat in the mountains. No body rot, almost no rust. Similar experience with 1997 Gmc suburban, with about 80,000 miles, No trouble, they just work. Yes I do check the engine and trans regularly, and I am sensitive to the signs something is not working right, so I have it fixed before it fails.

I have a couple of MB cl600 coups, both with about 70,000 miles. I love the cars, but they are expensive to maintain. More failures with small systems that it is possible to believe, and the repairs are very expensive.

On a cost basis the GMs are great. On an enjoyment of driving the MBs are great, but much more expensive to operate. But, then what should one expect from a car the retails at about $160,000 new. The suburbans are more reliable, and much cheaper to keep running.

I have never had the body rot, or line failures which were prominently described above, including in my 1976 GMC suburban, my 1988 GMC sub, or my 1998 Sub, which I still have. And, I doubt if an acura would have been much good in pulling the 8000 # boat, and 1500 # trailer from LA to Tahoe, while never had any problems with the GMS. All original engines, transmissions, and 4 wheel drives Did always use synthetic oil after it became available, and changed the trans oil every 50 to 70 thousand miles, along with brake fluid flush, and antifreeze replacement every 4 years of so. .Usually the engine oil was changed about every 10 K miles, or just before a long boat haul each year. I did have a starter fail on the 1976 sub at about 100 k miles or so. Must be a piece of junk. The replacement rebuilt is still working fine, and it cost me about $100 15 years ago, to have a rebuilt put in.

About the only repairs needed were tires, maybe I should get Japanese tires, since the Michelin or bridge stone would wear out about every 50 to 80 thousand miles. I guess the Bridge stones are Japanese, and the Michelin ride much better, but both have long wear.

Just never cheated on maintenance, and never asked them to do something they were no able to do, but never pampered them either. I don't know why I am happy with these results, maybe I just don't have high enough standards, to appreciate a Japanese car. But, I have never had to replace or rebuilt an engine, transmission or other major driveline component. Oh that is wrong, I did have two diesel Cads both 1979s. And, both of the engines failed after the guarantee was out at about 60K miles. GM gave me the new engine, and I had to pay the labor to change them, what a rip. The second engines are still going in both cars, which I have given to some inlaws. Well I guess I should be mad at GM, because they only gave me the engines, and not the labor, but since they were both off warranty, I was actually happy.
Posted by rwe9@...
21st Jan 2010
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RE: Why I still hesitate to buy an American-made vehicle
Well, on the other side of the coin, I have a '91 Silverado K1500 that I've owned for 9 years. She has over 200,000 miles on her, and I think I've spent about $8500 on her...including purchase ant two sets of tires. A half-ton pickup that will carry a ton in the bed without sagging much. She's been a good girl to me.

On the other hand, my first car was a '67 Mustang GT, and I'll give it credit for one thing...it got me started on a 20+ year career as an auto mechanic. It lived up to it's name...Fix Or Repair Daily...

Be well
Posted by AmraLeo
21st Jan 2010
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Talk about a reliable American made vehicle!
I have a '98 Chrysler Town & Country with over 150,000 miles. I have all the routine maintenance performed and it has been very reliable car.

The front motor mounts have had to be replaced, which is to be expected.

I had one CV joint boot cover go out, but it was probably road damage more than wear and tear. The seat heaters are going out, but the electric seats still work great. The electric windows on one side are both shot, but that was due to them being left open in a thunderstorm. On the other side, where the windows were shut, they didn't suffer water damage and are both fine.
Posted by LarryPTL
21st Jan 2010
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RE: Why I still hesitate to buy an American-made vehicle
While the body of the post talks about Japanese companies, the title leads with the phrase "American-made vehicle", an inexact, lazy, and fatuous expression in this age of multi-national corporations and manufacturing. Surely someone of your experience knows better and can do better.

Yes I am aware of Consumer Reports and their reliability ratings. That is why I do not buy GM products nor recommend them to others (although being raised in a Ford family probably adds some bias too). Did *you* not look at the ratings for your truck before you bought it or did you - like so many others - cross your fingers and hope that the bad things wouldn't happen to you?

Obviously I know that Toyota and Nissan had full-sized pickups available in 2006 when you bought you 1997 since I listed their introduction dates (2000 and 2004 respectively) in my post. In 2006 you chose not to buy a 6-year-old Tundra or a 2-year-old Titan but instead chose to buy a 9-year-old Silverado; I presume that this decision was driven in large part by purchase-cost/availability factors. In general, a 9-year old vehicle is going to have more maintenance issues than a 6- or 2-year-old vehicle; to expect otherwise is foolish.

Perhaps a more accurate title would be:
"Why I still hesitate to buy a GM/Ford/Chrysler-made vehicle (because of my experience with a 13-year-old beater pickup that I bought 4 years ago)..."
Posted by Dave S2
21st Jan 2010
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Repeatedly Bitten By GM...
We bought a Chev Blazer in 99. Off the assembly line, it had a failing security lock which is supposed to prevent theft via using a screwdriver to jimmy the steering column. In addition, the factory forgot to plug in the 4WD harness correctly. Since then we have blown a head gasket, vented out the ac coolant and numerous other faults.

Once bitten.

Then in 2002 we bought a GMC Sonoma. I went to turn on the headlights on the way home and it blew the entire light circuit, leaving me in the dark at 60MPH. Turns out there was a crimped wire behind the dash and instead of actually fixing it, they jammed a 20-amp fuse into a 15-amp socket. It has slowly been losing Transmission fluid for 5 years, but no one can seem to find out where. The ac also leaked out on this model as well. Recently the alternator failed in a spectacular manner constantly rebooting all the electronics in the vehicle. This failure wiped out my radio. I should be thankful that it didn't take out the computers...

Twice shy...

And people wonder why I am leery of touching another GM vehicle??
Posted by Zorched
21st Jan 2010
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RE: Why I still hesitate to buy an American-made vehicle
I spent several years during and just after college working in Honda, Toyota, Chevy, and Chrysler dealerships. I worked with new cars, which means you interface with used cars (appraisals on trades) and service (warranty work). Let me tell you, in those worlds there are no illusions. You see used cars come in, how they have held up, what they need to be sold, what they are worth.

There is no comparison. Not close. I wish it were not so, I was reluctant to acknowledge it, but it is is what it is.

Even when they are new.... I worked at an outfit that had a Honda dealership and a Chevy dealership about a mile apart. They coincidentally sold just about exactly the same number of new cars. They shared backroom administrative services and: warranty claims in dollars for the Chevy dealership were 8 times that at the Honda dealership. This held up over several years.

Then the banks, they deal in facts and don't care who makes the car; it's all about the bucks. When leasing a car, the banks issue a residual factor that reflects the vehicle's value at various mileage and age data points. Typical number for a 4 year old Accord with 60k miles was .55 meaning over half of sticker. Mid-size GM? .38. The bank knows they are crap and that re-sale (residual) value will reflect it.

If not for brand loyalty, the domestics would be extinct. Doesn't have to be that way (see unions, etc), but it is not my (or your) job to subsidize mediocrity or a labor-supply extortion racket.
Posted by johannk
21st Jan 2010
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RE: Why I still hesitate to buy an American-made vehicle
No doubt, Honda rocks. It's a good citizen company with a soul.

BTW, I set up a post where everyone can rank their five most noteworthy
autos at

http://www.smartplanet.com/technology/blog/thinking-tech/rank-your-
cars-and-their-makers-right-here/2790/?tag=content;col1

Also, I am getting a Consumer Reports auto expert on the phone in the
next couple of days and we'll settle who makes the best cars once and
for all. I've already been given a big hint. One CR pr guy told me
"They don't change much."
Posted by John Dodge
22nd Jan 2010
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RE: Why I still hesitate to buy an American-made vehicle
From Comment #20: "...but the cultures and priorities in
those factories were set long ago by smart Japanese auto executives
who filled the quality void left by American car makers."

And ripped from today's headlines:

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2010-01-21-toyota-recall-gas-pedal_N.htm

Toyota recall: Gas pedal issue affects more than 2M vehicles

In another blow to its quality image, Toyota Motor announced Thursday a second huge recall of vehicles for another problem that could cause the throttle to stick open.
The latest recall involves 2.3 million Toyota-brand cars and trucks dating back to 2005 models. Toyota's Lexus and Scion brands are not involved.

That follows a recent recall of 4.2 million Toyota and Lexus vehicles because floor mats could jam the gas pedal down. About 1.7 million are on both lists, Toyota said...

...Toyota also recalled 110,000 Tundra pickups in November because their spare tires might fall off their storage beam under the cargo bed and crash into traffic...

...The recent recalls have tainted Toyota, says Peter DeLorenzo, editor of AutoExtremist.com: "Toyota is in serious trouble, because now there are too many competitive models from savvy competitors ? Ford and Hyundai for instance ? that are presenting a real alternative to the consumer.

"The days of Toyota being automatically successful with everything it touches are well and truly over."

Apparently even companies lead by smart Japanese auto executives have quality issues...
Posted by Dave S2
22nd Jan 2010
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RE: Why I still hesitate to buy an American-made vehicle
Mr Dodge
Due to your truck's low mileage it has been subjected to what Canadian used car dealers call "lot rot". A vehicle riven high miles will not rot anywhere near a low milerwhich sits and allowa rust to work.

I also agree with Dave S2, you no doubt bought the Chevy truck due to price and maybe in combination with availability.
Posted by panelshop
22nd Jan 2010
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It's a matter of degrees
I drove my beloved 1990 Camaro to 240K miles. I replaced the differential at 200K, the cat at 210. The valve-guides needed replacing, and second gear was finally going by the end. I had replaced the radiator twice, the alternator and front-right headlight annually, brakes and tires every six to eight months. And its 5.0 litre engine 'only' got a real-world 18 mpg city, even with my lead foot, and 26 at a constant 80 mph, far from the promised 25/29.

On the other hand, my LSC blew its tranny one day after the warranty expired, the anti-lock failed at a crucial moment, and an air-bag blew at 80 mph on a busy LA highway. It got an actual 14/21.

My Sable blew both head gaskets six month apart, and the ECM kept thinking the engine was overheating, and shut the car down while running in the middle of traffic with the wife and kids inside. It got 16/22.

The Town and Country LXI had some weird electrical problem that would should down all the lights and gauges, but never for the mechanic. It got 13/18, but when the lights went out one night while driving on a remote, Utah highway, it, too, had to go.

My $500/month Infiniti G35's airbag light keeps coming on, gets only 20 mpg at 65 mph, and 15 around town, the same as all 3 of the PT Cruiser GTs ('03, '04, and '06), which also all developed front-end shakes under hard acceleration which no one has been able to correct. And the '06 needs a new battery every 4-6 months.

If only I had my Camaro's problems again instead.

In fact, all my 'problamatic' GMs' ('62 Coupe de Ville, '78 Impala, '84 Type 10, '85 Caprice, '86 Safari, '91 Z/24, '93 Z/24, '90 R/S) problems were far more tolerable than those of any other cars I've ever had.

GM for me, please!
Posted by Gaius_Maximus
24th Jan 2010
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RE: Why I still hesitate to buy an American-made vehicle
I learned about "hidden" warranties the hard way..TOO LATE.
Check out http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=119427

or Google for "automobile hidden warranty"
Posted by Lynn110
25th Jan 2010
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RE: Why I still hesitate to buy an American-made vehicle
Mike Chapman told me to post this with his "enthusiastic
permission."

I am the proud owner of a 1978 Datsun pickup - now 32 years old. I
just replaced the master cylinder - not because of leakage into the
booster - but because up on hard braking the pedal was getting
awfully close to the floor. Also, the rubber pieces were slowly
disintegrating and very quickly coloring black any freshly-installed
fluid. It was the original unit - verified by my local Nissan
dealership. I've rebuilt the front calipers - still serviceable and
rebuildable after 32 years. I have replaced the rear cylinders -
which had obviously been replaced - before my ownership in March
2000. The engine is original with the original pistons and rings.
I'm 63 - I may not need to buy another car. My wife is 65 and is
the proud and original owner of a 1998 Honda CRV - she also may not
have to buy another car. So much for me ever considering any
American-built car. Thank-you.

Wm. G. ("Mike") Chapman
Procurement Analyst
P-8A Poseidon Program
Boeing Integrated Defense Systems
Desk = 253-657-9491
FAX = 253-657-1942
Posted by John Dodge
3rd Feb 2010
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Time Will Tell The Future of American Auto Companies
Arguing over whether which brands of cars are "all wonderful / all terrible" is as pointless as debating how many angels can dance on a pinhead. Much of this debate has left the realm of reason and turned to prosthelytizing personal religions.

Many so-called "imports" are assembled right in America by American workers earning American wages and paying American taxes. GM, Chrysler, and Ford cars now contain substantial proportions (more thsn half of the vehicles) of imported components and assmeblies. Some are built in Canada or Mexico.

One thing is clear - protectionists seeking to erect "buy American" trade barriers are too uninformed to realize that they would actually be hurting American carmakers. Such is an emotional response divorced from fact or logic.

The American carmakers today are reaping what they have sown. The banking industry, auto industry, and the American market have all decided that American brand cars are not up to the quality or reliability standards of their competition. Pontiac and Saturn are now joining Plymouth, AMC, and Oldsmobile in history.

On that note, John Dodge is merely reflecting the majority assessment of the American automobile market based on 46 years of experience. Only time will tell now whether or not the remaining American car makers can become viable again.
Posted by cardhun@...
6th Feb 2010
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RE: Why I still hesitate to buy an American-made vehicle
From Comment #20: "...but the cultures and priorities in
those factories were set long ago by smart Japanese auto executives
who filled the quality void left by American car makers."

And ripped from yesterday's headlines:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35274857/ns/business-the_new_york_times/

Toyota has pattern of slow response on safety


Toyota?s recalls and disclosures in recent months are part of a lengthy pattern in which the automaker has often reacted slowly to safety concerns, in some instances making design changes without telling customers about problems with vehicles already on the road, an examination of its record shows.

Seemingly, as American brand automakers have been learning from their Asian counterparts, the Asians have been learning from their American counterparts...
Posted by Dave S2
8th Feb 2010
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Re: Comment 48 by Dave S2
Re: "Seemingly, as American brand automakers have been learning from their Asian counterparts, the Asians have been learning from their American counterparts..."

Rather, one should pause to consider that "import" factories in America are staffed by Americans, including middle executive management.

The report cited should give pause to consider what it says about American character.
Posted by cardhun@...
11th Feb 2010
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RE: Why I still hesitate to buy an American-made vehicle
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4th May 2010
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