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Geoengineering won’t stop the seas from rising, study says

By | August 26, 2010, 12:36 AM PDT

As the earth warms and the polar ice caps melt because we keep putting more heat-trapping greenhouse gasses into the atmosphere, radical geoengineering schemes have been proposed to break that cycle and keep the climate from changing so fast.

A paper published this week in Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences looks at five of these schemes — injecting sulfur dioxide aerosol into the atmosphere to block the sun as a volcanic eruption would; putting giant mirrors into space to deflect the sun; planting large numbers of trees to absorb carbon dioxide; creating biochar (charcoal that’s made from burned organic wastes and buried to improve the soil); and burying carbon dioxide — to see how they would affect sea levels.

The answer is not much. By the year 2100, the scientists say, sea levels are expected to rise by 30 centimeters — that’s nearly a foot — or more unless we severely cut our greenhouse gas emissions AND use our most aggressive geoengineering.

Giant mirrors or sulfur dioxide aerosols won’t cut it, the scientists say. Injecting enough aerosol to produce the equivalent of the 1991 Pinatubo eruption in the Philippines every 18 months would delay a sea level rise by only 40 to 80 years, and sulfur dioxide could cause other problems, as this Atlantic Monthly article points out. Acid rain is a possibility, as is uneven climate change that punishes some countries and not others.

Biochar plus burning biofuels plus burying carbon dioxide could limit the sea level rise to 10 centimeters, or about 4 inches.

As Microsoft Chairman Bill Gates points out in this interesting interview with Technology Review, we have a problem, especially in the U.S.:

The U.S. uses, per person, over twice as much energy as most other rich countries. And so it’s easy to say we should cut energy use through better buildings and higher MPG and all sorts of things. But even in the most optimistic case, if the U.S. is cutting its energy intensity by a factor of two, to get to European or Japanese levels, the amount of increased energy needed by poor people during that time frame will mean that there’s never going to be a year where the world uses less energy. The only hope is less CO2 per unit of energy. And no: there is no existing technology that at anywhere near economic levels gives us electricity with zero CO2.

Gates, whose foundation is interested in energy, is calling for an “energy miracle” that would start with more government investment for research into ways to cut carbon dioxide emissions.

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Deborah Gage

About Deborah Gage

Deborah Gage was a contributing editor for SmartPlanet in 2010.

Deborah Gage

Deborah Gage

Contributing Editor, Technology

Deborah Gage has written for the San Francisco Chronicle, Minnesota Public Radio, Baseline and various magazines and newspapers. She is based in San Francisco.

Follow her on Twitter.

Deborah Gage

Deborah Gage

I pride myself on being an independent journalist. My reporting and writing are not influenced by any financial holdings, and I have no business affiliations with companies other than the publishers I write for as a journalist.

She writes for SmartPlanet and is not an employee of CBS.

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0 Votes
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Simple question.
If the most radical ideas of what man can do to fix global warming will not make an impact on things for the better, how is what we are currently making an impact for the worse?

Man is either capable of changing the environment or man is not.
Posted by Hates Idiots
26th Aug 2010
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RE: Geoengineering won't stop the seas from rising, study says
So even if everyone in the US uses completely clean energy (zero CO2) then water levels will still rise, but it won't matter anyway because everyone in the US will be living in communes spending most of their money on the research that brought us to the zero CO2 mark. I guess we need to set aside some money for research into floating communes. Maybe another country can take that as an action item.
Posted by frd050101@...
26th Aug 2010
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So...
...10,000 years ago, mean sea level was approximately 300 to 425
feet lower that it is today. 300 / 10,000 = .03 feet / year, or 3 feet
every 100 years.

Seems like we're behind the curve here.
Posted by JohnMcGrew@...
26th Aug 2010
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RE: Geoengineering won't stop the seas from rising, study says
Hates Idiots,

Your simple statement is wrong. We cannot AVOID effecting it, but we can't yet control HOW we effect it.

Humanity is effecting the environment because there are too many of us. We each have a small impact, but together it is enormous. The artical is stating that there are no practical or ethical solutions to this problem yet. There is, however, one way to solve the problem: completely shut down a large chunk of the civilized world and dispose of excess population. Of course, such waste disposal will also produce polution if it's done wrong. And also, we're basically talking genecide here, so it's not an option after all.
Posted by grassdogstudio
26th Aug 2010
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RE: Geoengineering won't stop the seas from rising, study says
Someone please tell me why a one foot rise in sea level over the course of a hundred years is of concern to ANYONE. There has to be more to it...
Posted by AnAnyMouse
26th Aug 2010
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RE: Geoengineering won't stop the seas from rising, study says
There's disagreement on how high the seas are going to rise this
century, but here's an article by a couple of scientists predicting a 7-
foot rise. They detail some of the consequences -- e.g. 15 million
people in Bangladesh live at or below three feet above sea level.

http://e360.yale.edu/content/feature.msp?id=2230
Posted by DebGage
26th Aug 2010
0 Votes
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RE: Geoengineering won't stop the seas from rising, study says
"Someone please tell me why a one foot rise in sea level over the
course of a hundred years is of concern to ANYONE"

Ask the people living in Venice, Italy.

Then check how many cities are right at sea level.
Posted by Jkirk3279
26th Aug 2010
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They were doomed regardless of anything we do
The sea has been rising since the end of the last ice age. (#3
above) Coastal topography makes up the most temporary
features on the planet. Venice, Italy has been sinking since the
moment it was established, mainly because it was built in a marsh,
and because the Alps are weighing down the European
continental plate in the region.

Since Venice was an economic center for centuries, they
constantly rebuilt the city upon itself to keep ahead of the rising
tide. The irony is that since Venice is no longer an economic
power, they can no longer afford to keep rebuilding the city as the
tide continues to rise. Just like Venice, if we surrender our
economic might in the name of anthropogenic global warming, we
won't be able to afford to mitigate the effects of the inevitable.
Posted by JohnMcGrew@...
26th Aug 2010
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RE: Geoengineering won't stop the seas from rising, study says
flawed model (or just HIGHLY conservative in its estimate even by mainstream standards which are a decade behind the curve) obviously... the only way you can get ONLY 1 foot of sea level rise is if the current 3mm of sea rise (which is [i believe] conservative by 0.6mm; as all further numbers will also be just to be on the lowest end for the model that got this number) remains constant for the next 90 years. whereas in reality its been dramatically accelerating in a very short time in 1960, the average sea level rise was a mere 1mm per year.. then in 1990 its doubled to over 2mm per year; which is roughly a 33% per decade... then in 2000 it went up to more than 3mm per year, a 50% increase in a decade, when you take 3mm per years from now till 2100 its about 1 foot.

now again remember that its been INCREASING every decade (and it will only keep accelerating and an ever more dramatic rate if things like the permafrosts let go entirely), and if even only the current 50% increase per decade holds (which it likely will dramatically increase from) thats 4.5mm for a decade (till 2020)... then 6.75mm for a decade (till 2030)... then about 10mm for a decade (2040)... then 15mm (2050)... then 22mm (2060)... then 33mm (till 2070)... then 46.5mm (till 2080)... then 70mm (till 2090) then 105mm till (till 2100)... which is an astounding 3.13 METERS in 90 years (from now till 2100), far more than any model i know of indicates, because most model follow how fast the sea level actually has been increasing from previous decade, not how fast the trend in increasing from decade to decade which increases the effect by slightly more than a factor of 3...

so in theory it can actually be MUCH worse (9 times worse) than this articles model, and 3 times worse than most current model which predict 1 meter increase by 2100... if the ocean levels only raised 1 meter in the next 90 years i'd be VERY surprised... i'm betting that barring a major change in CO2 (and methane) output even 3 meters could become conservative... but even 1 meter would directly effect atleast 250 million people, and more realistically atleast 1 billion after you account for the world population increasing by an estimated 3 times to 21.18 billion people.
Posted by Daryl420
26th Aug 2010
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RE: Geoengineering won't stop the seas from rising, study says
Even at 7 feet per 100 years, that is less than one inch per year. People will not be suddenly uprooted from their homes. Each successive generation is just likely to settle a little more 'uphill' than the last while major cities are likely to build barriers when the situation becomes an economic issue. A two foot high barrier is likely to be good enough for twenty five years or so with a minimum of expense (amortized over the twenty five year period). While there may not be quite as much beach property as before, it will reduce so gradually and by so little that no one will miss anything.
Posted by AnAnyMouse
26th Aug 2010
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Where do I start?
Grass? Your answer is complete babble. What the article is saying is the scientists say they know how to change the environment, but we lack the ability to effect change on the required scale even with the wildest ideas.

So if man is incapable of making a dent in the problem with the wildest ideas we can come up with, how did we create the problem?

The reality is a fact all global warming advocates ignore and this article skirts around. Mans contribution to global warming gases is 1/10th of 1 percent of all global warming gases released annually.

So where are the other 99.9 percent of the global warming gases are coming from? Natural sources.

To restate the article for you in simpler terms. They are saying that if we stop all man made contributions of greenhouse gases, that 1/10th of 1 percent created annually, AND implement measures to counter the greenhouse gases already there, the change made by those manmade efforts would be insignificant.

So I ask again. If eliminating 100 percent of mans contributions and doing things to counter the gases already there will have no measurable impact on the environment, how did our tiny 1/10th of 1 percent contribution cause the damage you and others claim?

Jkirk3279? Do a little research before you blame Venice's flooding on global warming.

Venice and New Orleans have a lot in common. They were both built on geologically unstable ground. A lagoon in Venice and a swamp in New Orleans. Both cities are sinking. Get over it.

There are hundreds of centuries old lighthouses in Europe that are built in coastal areas in solid rock that are at nearly the same water level as they were when they were built. Some are over 500 years old.

Many American lighthouses, like the Cape Hatteras lighthouse, were built on unstable barrier islands and have had to be moved because of normal erosion. It has nothing to do with rising oceans.
Posted by Hates Idiots
27th Aug 2010
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RE: Geoengineering won't stop the seas from rising, study says
@Hates Idiots

1/10 of one percent.... i would LOVE to see the study on that... since we ouput on average in the last 10 years more 200 times (last i checked it was over 230 times, and that was 2-5 years ago) the average of the earths volcanic output of CO2... and this gets worse every year. even in the early 90's the conservative estimate was 130 time more than volcanoes.

and of course the water level hasn't risen much yet... its only in the last 20-50 years thats the ocean level increase has become significant, before that it was a mere 1.1mm per years its TRIPLE that now... thats a significant increase... hence the worry about the NEXT century of ocean level increase, which wil actually be much, MUCH worse than this articles basis model indicates.

and BTW keep in mind (as i'm sure you didn't) and MOST greenhouse gases form a homeostasis, which was a balance thats existed at roughly the same levels from 2-5 million years ago until about the 18th century... nature isn't increasing that and throwing the balance off... WE ARE... and btw, methane from industrial farming isn't a natural, permafrosts melting because we have added AT LEAST 25% CO2 over the earth baseline for just 250 years ago (which even the number back then wasn't natural because we were still having a markable effect, which has only since been amplified many times over) isn't natural because that land is SUPPOSED TO be frozen year round, its not supposed to be leaking methane, while the source is natural, the fact that its happening ISN'T.... we've also added alot of water vapor... but thats almost negligable since most of the atmosphere is water vapor (and its released as wain/snow when there too much and it forced into becomming droplets), though the warm air holds more moisture than cool air so global warming can also cause us to be effect even water vapour as well... to think we only have a 0.1% impact globally represents a supreme ignorance.. if that were even close to the mark than volcanoes would be erupting several times daily just just to keep up with us if your 0.1% was correct, as currently volcanoes ouput on average annually 0.4-0.5% of the CO2 that we do. hence we now have 200-250 times more impact then the biggest natural source CO2 emission... and methane wise we are responsible for almost a 150% increase in the last 250 years (and were were effecting it LONG before that too, albeit to a much less extent), were also responsible for a 12% increase in NO2 and 100% of the all existing CFC's.

by any REAL standards that FAR more than a 0.1% contribution. its a good thing that only 3% of scinetist share his opinion, AGW has 97% support of the scintific community and still progress is moving at a snails pace as if this wasn't an imminent threat of the next century, and beyond.

another funny thing is alot of people try to scapegoat the sun as the primary cause for the warming... despite the fact that at the same time the warming was observed on other planets in the solar system it was actually decreasing slightly here; as a direct result of the extended solar minimum... hence the cause of the wamring of earth since the beginning of time ISN't the cause of the current warming trend... atleast not most of it... many scientist show that the solar irradiance since about 1980 is actually down, despite the fact the the global temperature in the same time had risen 0.5C, whereas if most of the warming was caused by natural sources (not sources related to humans) temperatures would have fallen over the same peroid (esspecially asince i've already covered volcanoes and permafrosts, and previously also deep sea methane pockets); not risen.
Posted by Daryl420
27th Aug 2010
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RE: Geoengineering won't stop the seas from rising, study says
Daryl420,

Excellent post. Sometimes folks just have to stand up to the misinformation being spewed out there about humanity's role in the increased CO2 and other greenhouse gases in the atmosphere, along with the other adverse effects of our activities on our planet. You did a great job.

Here's an even simpler summary:
Nature (plants, animals, volcanoes, etc.) puts out an average of 440 Gigatons of CO2 on an annual basis. Nature (plants, animals, the ocean, etc.) absorbs 440 Gigatons of CO2 on an annual basis.

Human emissions of CO2 totaled 26.4 Gigatons in 2007. Agriculture and deforestation added another 5.9 Gigatons. Of the 32.3 Gigatons we contributed, the ocean was able to absorb around 40% of it, adding to the process of acidification of the oceans that is making it less and less hospitable to life.

That's 13 Gigatons of CO2 that is added to the atmosphere every year, which is one of the most well documented statistics out there. That's around 3%. Do you have a bank account? What happens to it if you have 3% interest?

Hope this helps
Posted by klassman6
28th Aug 2010
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Quoting UN is not going to win points here Daryl420.
The UN commission on greenhouse gases is not a scientific body. They do no research of their own. They are simply a clearinghouse for other peoples research. Work that is cherry picked to support their preconceived premise on man made global warming.

Every single one of their reports has been drastically altered after peer review passed them, which invalidates any of their alleged findings.

Their study on the Artic sea ice only went back to 1970 because if they looked further back they would see massive melts in the past.

They ignore the hundreds of closed weather stations in the US that no longer track rural temperatures and skews the US temperature average toward the higher urban areas.

They ignore the thousands of new remote weather stations installed along side huge heat sinks called highways in countries across the planet because it makes maintenance easier, but ignore the fact that it also skews temperature readings for national averages in most developed nations.

For gods sake some of their arguments are based on opinion pieces written for a weight lifting magazine. They have no credibility and your parroting them shows a lack of true research on the topic.

The numbers given by klassman6 are from a worst-case perspective. They are extremely generous in man-made global warmings favor and they still shoot it down.
Posted by Hates Idiots
30th Aug 2010
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RE: Geoengineering won't stop the seas from rising, study says
Every single one of their reports has been drastically altered after peer review passed them, which invalidates any of their alleged findings.

Oh really! Please give some citations for this claim as that's a new one on me. If you're talking about the paper on sea level rise that was withdrawn a couple of years ago, it was withdrawn when it became obvious they seriously underestimated SLR.

The reason the study on Arctic sea ice only went back to 1970 is that's around when they started monitoring it from satellites.

As far as your claim about weather stations, until someone publishes a scientifically done study that supports your position I'll continue to accept the people responsible for siting and monitoring weather stations know what they're doing for the most part. In science it's not enough to make a claim like that. You have to back it up with actual science. If you're basing your claim on data from WUWT you should know that a study was done comparing well sited weather stations to poorly sited weather stations as determined by Watts found the poorly sited stations actually introduced a slight cooling bias compared to the well sited stations.
Posted by riverat1
30th Aug 2010
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Use the mind God gave you.
Good for you riverat1 for doubting me.

Now, as I have said many times before, open your mind up and look at both sides of the discussion. Do your own research and make an objective conclusion. You and others here have ripped apart any link to supporting documentation anyone has ever posted so I will not waste my time doing it anymore.

You agree they withdrew one part of the report because of problems and the head of the commission has admitted to errors, like citing a high school kids science class paper on the Himalayan glaciers melting, yet none of this raises any concerns they might not know what they are talking about?

Here are a few tips to get you started.

The weather stations started closing under Clinton. Any good resource on the Federal budget for those years will show large budget cuts in the National weather service resulting in the closing of weather stations and reductions in staff.

The National Weather service history archives, those dusty books again, has extensive information on the changes they have made over the years using remote weather stations to supplement weather data lost with the closing of these stations. I pass one of the remote stations every day on my way to work. It sits 20 feet off an eight-lane highway and next to the parking lot of a hotel. The weather station it replaced sat on a quiet rural road with no buildings within 200 feet of it.

For some light reading, try reading in real books, the history of weather reporting and tracking in the US. For about 100 years there were strict scientific standards for measuring weather. Temperatures, rain and snowfall where carefully measured in consistent conditions in all weather stations. For temperatures those standards eliminated bad data caused by external forces like heat sinks caused by buildings and paved areas.

Such standards for weather stations have been eliminated by the placement of remote sensors on buildings and alongside roads. Placement near heat sinks causes huge discrepancies in temperatures recorded. Temperatures are higher during the day and stay higher for a longer time at night.

Do a little test. Put a thermostat in a sunny area over grass more than 100 feet away from any pavement, gravel or building. Then compare it to a second thermostat mounted 10 feet away from a road and a third thermostat mounted on the sunny side of a building.

The variation you see will support my statements.
Posted by Hates Idiots
31st Aug 2010
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I use my mind all the time, thank you.
HI,

The paper I was talking about was not the IPCC AR4 report which is where the Himalayan Glacier error occurred. That error was essentially the equivalent of a typo in the IPCC report. To discount the whole IPCC report because of 3 or 4 suspected errors is like getting an F on a 1000 question test because you missed 3 or 4 True/False questions.

The number of weather stations doesn't make much difference as long as there are still enough to collect the data you need. The people who operate those stations are well aware of the the issues you raise and have been for far longer than you've been aware of them. They have methodologies in place to eliminate bad data and compensate for systematic errors they may find. As I mentioned in the previous post a study done of the well and poorly sited stations show there is no heating bias introduced by poorly sited stations. If you want your argument to fly you're going to have to present some real scientific data to support it, not just a bunch of anecdotes about missing and poorly sited weather stations.

But US data alone doesn't really matter that much. The CONUS covers less than 2% of the Earth's surface so if you threw out all of the US data it wouldn't change anything significantly.

I'm well aware of what the test you propose would show. But if you took continuous measurements over time you could compare the data from the 3 thermostats and develop a means of compensating for inaccuracies you found. Also, in global warming the change in temperature over time is more important than the absolute temperature. So even a thermometer in a parking lot that reads 5F high compared to one in a field 5 miles away can still give an accurate reading of how average temperatures change over time.
Posted by riverat1
31st Aug 2010
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Just to clarify a few things.
The National Weather Service has no methodology for adjusting temperature readings taken from poorly relocated stations. By their own reports, again in their archives, the only acknowledgement of a potential problem with the data was a change in the rules that formerly controlled the conditions of a weather station to prevent skewing numbers.

The new rules allowed the placement of sensors anywhere without adjusting for any impact made by poor placement. So in other words, all hint of scientific control over their data was lost.

The number and placement of weather stations is a huge factor when calculating national temperature averages. Rural weather stations tend to report lower temperatures than urban areas because of urban heat sinks. When you take 500 rural weather stations out of an average that only counts 2000 stations you are going to skew the national average. A smaller sample means a less reliable average.

On top of that you relocate many of the urban stations from manual stations in controlled environments to remote stations mounted on buildings and near highways and you further skew the average with even higher urban temperatures.

I completely understand what you are saying about adjusting for inaccuracies, but the truth is the National Weather Services own records show they have done no such sturdy and have done no such adjusting. Projects to identify bad data caused by this change in practices are frequently denied federal funding because the probable conclusions do not support global warming.

This problem extends to many developed nations that have moved to remote weather stations.

And you are probably thinking, what about satellite readings.

Satellite readings should be accurate. When a study of all known satellite temperature data came out a few years ago that said there had been no global warming over the past 20 years the gang at East Anglia immediately published a counter story citing atmospheric conditions that could explain away the differences seen from the land observations.

Anyone who has looked into the East Anglia mess knows that one of their admitted items of fraud was a small adjustment they made to their land based data to pad their findings against this specific satellite data report.

They altered data to support their argument because they knew they were wrong yet were obsessed with discrediting a peer reviewed report that said no to global warming.
Posted by Hates Idiots
1st Sep 2010
0 Votes
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I want real science, not anecdotes.
HI,

Of course the National Weather Service by themselves mainly supply raw data for climate scientists. The climate scientists apply their own algorithms for adjusting the data. As I said, scientist are well aware of potential problems with the data they collect and take action to account for those issues.

You keep harping on the number of and locations of weather stations but anecdotal evidence is not enough. You'll have to show me a scientifically based study that shows how the NWS is getting it wrong before I'll give much credence to your position. And you'll have to show me some hard evidence before I'll believe funds studies to examine errors in the data collection process have been denied because the probable conclusions do not support global warming .

Current studies of satellite readings do show there is a global warming trend in the readings. The UAH analysis shows a 0.12C per decade trend, the RSS analysis show 0.19C per decade. The surface temperature trend is 0.17C per decade. You should know that satellites don't directly measure temperatures. Instead they measure the strength of various wavelengths of EM energy and calculate the temperature from that. I think there is still plenty to learn about how that all works.

You obviously believe that climate scientists have manipulated and falsified their work to support some political purpose. But that's not something you can get away with for any length of time in science and scientists are smart enough to know that. In a field as widely studied as climate science it's incredible to believe that in 20+ years of intense study no one has been able to show that the emperor has no clothes. Show me a scientifically supportable study that explains the current climate and the changes we are seeing better than the current theory and I'll follow along. Until that happens I will tend to believe the leading scientists in the field know what they're talking about.
Posted by riverat1
1st Sep 2010
0 Votes
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Denial is a riverat...
Anybody who has ever taken a statistics class can tell you that the accuracy of an average goes down with the sample size.

They can also tell you about how a national average can be skewed if major parts of a country are left out of the average. It is simple statistics that a marketing major could explain in more detail than me. You do not have to be a global weather scientist to understand it.

Yes I believe that scientists have manipulated data to support global warming. The scientists at East Anglia were caught at it and friends of theirs from across the world conspired with them to cover it up and discredit anyone who published peer reviewed counter evidence.

The head of the scientific cabal at East Anglia admitted that there was insufficient data to confirm if there had been any measurable change in global temperatures in the past 20 years.

What incentive do scientists have to falsify data? Grant money.

Governments from every developed nation have been dumping billions of dollars into global warming research. No one is funding research on projects that disprove global warming. Available research funding is $100,000 to $1 in favor of a scientist whos work supports man made global warmings existence. The emails from East Anglia, a globally acknowledged clearinghouse for climate data, confirmed they either altered or ignored data that did not support global warming.

Instead of using properly collected data that needs no fixing they used their ADJUSTMENTS you talk about to fundamentally alter data in their favor. Temperatures from urban heat sink areas that should have been adjusted down were left alone. Temperatures that did not align with the urban hot spots were adjusted UP. Does that sound right? It is all in the East Anglia investigation report.

When tree ring data from Siberia did not support their global warming theory and additional tree ring data from upstate Washington supported the Siberia data in showing a global cooling trend at a time when they wanted to see a warming trend they altered the data. They published a temperature graph to counter the satellite data report that contained tree ring data up to a certain year and then they substituted land based thermostat collected data that supported their argument for the remaining years. But they labeled the chart as being all tree ring data.

That is bad science at best and fraud at worst. It is amazing how many people have no problems funding such junk science with their hard earned tax dollars.

Excuse me for having a problem with fraud in how my tax dollars are spent.
Posted by Hates Idiots
1st Sep 2010
0 Votes
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Real science, not anecdotes II
HI,

How is it that pollsters can poll a few thousand people or less and come up with an accurate picture of the millions in the general population's opinion? As long as the sample is properly distributed it works. That's a statistical fact. Show me some scientifically reasonable arguments, not just anecdotes that express your personal feelings.

The head of the scientific cabal at East Anglia admitted that there was insufficient data to confirm if there had been any measurable change in global temperatures in the past 20 years.

Now you're just exaggerating what Phil Jones said for your own purposes. Quoting from the interview here is exactly what he said:

BBC: Do you agree that from 1995 to the present there has been no statistically-significant global warming

Phil Jones: Yes, but only just. I also calculated the trend for the period 1995 to 2009. This trend (0.12C per decade) is positive, but not significant at the 95% significance level. The positive trend is quite close to the significance level. Achieving statistical significance in scientific terms is much more likely for longer periods, and much less likely for shorter periods.

So basically he said there has been warming during the period in question but from a statistically rigorous point of view he can't make the absolute statement that there was global warming. He also said that 15 years is too short a period to base such a judgment on anyway.

What incentive do scientists have to not falsify data? The fact that sooner or later some other scientist will come along and destroy their scientific reputation and career by showing they have been lying. It's absurd to believe that thousands of climate scientists from around the world are all willing risk that for the sake of a political position and ridiculous to think that over the years some scientist hasn't taken to opportunity to make his name by pointing out, in a scientifically rigorous way, the lies they are telling. I just can't accept that the level of conspiracy necessary to sustain the lie can continue over that length of time in a field that is receiving such intense scrutiny.

The emails from East Anglia that I have read confirmed no such thing. Please show me some specific quotes from them that support your assertion (so I can tear them down).

There are nearly always "ADJUSTMENTS" needed when you are combining data from a myriad of sources collected under varying conditions with different instruments over such a long period of time. If nothing else you have to normalize the data so it can be combined into a coherent whole. The purity you desire in science doesn't exist in the real world.

I have a problem with fraud in how my tax dollars are spent too but grants to fund scientific studies is at the bottom of my list for that.
Posted by riverat1
1st Sep 2010
0 Votes
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Futher discussion is pointless.
"Please show me some specific quotes from them that support your assertion (so I can tear them down)."

A closed mind is a terrible thing to waste....
Posted by Hates Idiots
2nd Sep 2010
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RE: Geoengineering won't stop the seas from rising, study says
I was just being snarky. So far every claim about the climategate emails I've looked into has turned out to be trumped up misinterpretation of what was being said so I assume anything else you can produce would be as well. My mind in not in the least closed. I'm still waiting for someone to present scientifically cogent counterarguments to the prevailing theories but all I find are attempts to tear down the existing science without replacing it with something better.
Posted by riverat1
2nd Sep 2010
0 Votes
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RE: Geoengineering won't stop the seas from rising, study says
Interesting exchange.

Isn't the real question that needs to be answered "Should resources be devoted to determining whether global warming is natural or man-made, or should those resources be devoted to mitigating the effects of global warming?"

Man-made or natural, it seems that there's a real risk that global warming (relative to the temperatures of the last few centuries) is going to happen. If so, shouldn't we be spending money on solutions for getting millions of people relocated to higher ground (where they should be anyhow)?
Posted by Schleeve
2nd Sep 2010
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Great question Schleeve..
If there is warming happening, and if it is naturally occurring, as seen in the earlier Roman and Medieval Warming periods, can man even do anything to stop it?

Or do we focus on developing technology to manage the situation and ensure human survival?

That is partly why me and others are so upset that while the issue of global warming is far from decided the bigger question of the real cause of any warming has yet to be settled.

To borrow a line from riverat1, no one has yet to provide me evidence to explain why global temperatures went by as much as 10 degreases Fahrenheit higher than current global temperatures during the Roman and Medieval Warming periods.

There were no huge factories, power plants or millions of cars and planes dumping CO2 into the air. So why did temperatures rise?

These are the big questions being ignored.
Posted by Hates Idiots
2nd Sep 2010
0 Votes
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RE: Geoengineering won't stop the seas from rising, study says
Schleeve,

The resources being devoted to climate research are relatively speaking pretty minor. Even if you converted them all to mitigation they wouldn't go that far.

HI,

I think if you talk to climate scientists they feel they have a pretty good handle on the big issues in climate change and global warming during the present time. That you choose not to believe them is your problem.

Before I provide evidence about what caused the R/MWP how about you provide evidence that that temperatures actually were as much as 10 degrees Fahrenheit higher than current global temperatures. Sounds like hyperbole to me. From what I've read temperatures during those times may have been at most about as high as current temperatures.

It's difficult to attribute the causes of the MWP because we don't have the kind of measurements during that period that we have now but one thing we know for sure, it wasn't elevated CO2 levels which would show up in ice cores. There is some evidence that it wasn't a global phenomenon but was primarily limited to the area around the North Atlantic which would mostly rule out solar variation. Temporary changes in ocean currents can have an effect. Volcanic eruptions can have significant sort term effects on temperatures but they would have to be continuous and would cause cooling,not warming. So I don't really know what caused it but I'm almost positive that temperatures then weren't significantly warmer than they are now and I'm sure it wasn't elevated CO2 levels that caused it.
Posted by riverat1
3rd Sep 2010
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RE: Geoengineering won't stop the seas from rising, study says
Unbelieveable that there are STILL people who believe global warming is a myth and we are all being duped by sly scientists who have what agenda again?? Why would anyone bother to falsify so much information? Even if the problem were being overstated, what's wrong in trying to get people to behave in a more responsible manner by asking them to be less wasteful, recycle, reuse and stop spewing copious amounts of CO2 into the atmosphere?! There are 800 million people who go to bed hungry every day and 1:6 people on the planet don't have access to clean water. Try and put things into perspective and let's do what you can to reduce the damage those of us in the properous zones are responsible for.
Posted by charmaine57
5th Sep 2010
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RE: Geoengineering won't stop the seas from rising, study says
I refuse to spoon feed supposedly intelligent people with links to information that will only be disparaged by closed-minded people claiming to be intelligent.

The scientific information about the Roman and Medieval Warming Trends has been well documented for over 50 years in some very good peer reviewed books. Try going to a library. It can be a learning experience.

Until about 5 years ago much of this research was found on Wikipedia, but a scientist associated with the East Anglia cabal was so threatened by it being publicly accessible that he set out on a one-man crusade to use his academic credentials to alter over 1000 entries on Wikipedia related to this research.

To see accurate information on the research into the Roman and Medieval Warming Trends you have to go offline and see the actual reports and books as written.

The lack of food and water in many parts of the world is as much a function of politics as it is about weather. For example, the melting of Mount Kilimanjaros glaciers has everything to do with the dramatic deforestation that has occurred on and around the mountain, yet global warming supporters ignore this very real local climate change.

Reduced annual rain and snowfall, which tracks nicely with the deforestation curve, is supported by the science. To attribute this mountains extended drought and melting glacier to global warming is a fantasy stretch that is not supported by the science at hand.

As with most science that runs counter to the global warming mob, you have to dig back to the source research documents to see these facts as much of the online media has been manipulated.

It has been my personal experience that most of the avid global warming supporters in my circle of acquaintances refuse to do such hands on research. At that point their arguments have the credibility of a parrot that repeats everything it hears.
Posted by Hates Idiots
7th Sep 2010
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RE: Geoengineering won't stop the seas from rising, study says
Geoengineering won't stop the seas from rising but IS wreaking havoc on the environment and poisoning all living organisms on this planet, including us! stopgeoengineering.com
Posted by stopgeoengineering.com
9th Nov 2010
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