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Don’t hold your breath waiting for electric cars

By | July 28, 2010, 12:01 AM PDT

There’s an electric car conference in downtown San Jose this week — Plug-In 2010 — and it doesn’t seem that crowded. There was plenty of parking when I drove there this afternoon, and plenty of room inside San Jose’s cavernous convention hall.

Inside the meeting rooms, car makers were hedging their bets. Yes, GM announced pricing on the Chevy Volt today, but at $33,500 ($41,000 without federal subsidies), it’s still an expensive car.

And there are lots of other questions car makers are asking about how well electric cars are going to work and how quickly we will accept them.

Here are some of the things they are worried about:

- From BMW, which plans a “mainstream” car (meaning one with more than two seats) in 2012 and a “megacity” car (carbon fiber, with a range of 100 miles) in 2013 — How long will the batteries last, and what are they going to cost? Except for a few early adopters, most people won’t buy electric cars until prices come down, says BMW’s Rick Steinberg. He wouldn’t say what the magic price is.

- From BMW again — How serious is “range anxiety”? The more people drive electric cars, the less they tend to worry about it, Steinberg says, but BMW does believe that public charging stations would ease public anxiety about how far these cars can go. Still, there is less need for public charging stations in the U.S. than in other countries, he says, because so many Americans have garages where they can plug in their cars.

- From the California Energy Commission — The smart grid is several years away. “I don’t expect vehicle-to-grid charging in my working lifetime,” said vice chair Jim Boyd, “but we are talking about vehicle-to-home as a precursor. Although there are lots of rules that need to be changed in the electric business first.”

- Also from the California Energy Commission — Where’s the power for electric cars going to come from? “Everybody wants to put (renewable energy) in the desert, and there’s lots of flora and fauna and cultural issues there,” Boyd said. A newly formed California Plug-In Electric Vehicle Collaborative Council is now working on a plan to guide public investments in power.

- From Ford — Between 10% and 25% of Ford’s global fleet will be electrified by 2020. That’s 75% hybrids, 20% to 25% plug-in hybrids and the rest battery electrics. How fast Ford is able to go depends partly on the price of gas, according to Ford’s Nancy Gioia. When gas prices in the U.S. fell recently below $4 a gallon, the number of electric cars also dropped, by about 20%.

- Also from Ford — Battery technology is getting better, but it’s not good enough. Charge discharge, temperature performance, lifetime performance and energy density to reduce size, weight and cost all have to improve.

- From the Tennessee Valley Authority — Translate electricity use into miles per gallon, says James Ellis, so people can start to understand what the cost of owning an electric car really is.

- From Toyota — It’s outfitted 150 plug-in vehicles with telemetry boxes to collect data and survey drivers and is testing the cars in university research centers in Boulder and on both coasts. Data on how people use the cars — when they plug in, how far they drive, etc. — will be available on Toyota’s Web site. “We have a lot of learning to go,” said Toyota’s Mary Nickerson.

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Deborah Gage

About Deborah Gage

Deborah Gage was a contributing editor for SmartPlanet in 2010.

Deborah Gage

Deborah Gage

Contributing Editor, Technology

Deborah Gage has written for the San Francisco Chronicle, Minnesota Public Radio, Baseline and various magazines and newspapers. She is based in San Francisco.

Follow her on Twitter.

Deborah Gage

Deborah Gage

I pride myself on being an independent journalist. My reporting and writing are not influenced by any financial holdings, and I have no business affiliations with companies other than the publishers I write for as a journalist.

She writes for SmartPlanet and is not an employee of CBS.

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0 Votes
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It's okay. I'm not holding my breath
Remember when cell phones cost $3000 to buy, and $8/minute to
use? Today you can buy a cell phone for $14 and even
homeless people can afford to use them.

Such is the way with new technology. If the basic idea is sound
and it adds value in some way, consumers will eventually adopt it.
The technology will mature and become less expensive, and
consumers will lesser levels of utility will adopt the product.

Like the cell phones of 20 years ago, electric cars will for some
time remain a niche product for the decidedly affluent. They
won't become a mainstream middle class product until their cost
and utility approach that of conventional gasoline powered cars.

I can't tell you when this will happen, but if the concept is sound, it
will happen.
Posted by JohnMcGrew@...
28th Jul 2010
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RE: Don't hold your breath waiting for electric cars
The BMW guy dodges the questions about what his company's eventual electric vehicles will cost and how long a battery charge will last, then says that the longer people drive an electric car, the less they care about range anxiety.
Really? What people are we talking about? Who did this study, and where can we see it? That's not what I'm hearing from US drivers, who are concerned about only being able to drive 30-40 miles between charges before being stranded because there's no public charging infrastructure in place.
And where does he come up with this stuff about the US having less need for public charging stations than other countries, because we have garages? What an elitist attitude. Sounds like he's assuming only people with enough money to have a home with a garage will want, or be financially able, to invest in electric cars. How does that jibe with "most people won't buy electric cars until the prices come down"?
Posted by lfisher55
28th Jul 2010
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RE: Don't hold your breath waiting for electric cars
I agree with JohnMcGrew. When I was a kid my father spent a month's salary on a 12 inch TV. Only one channel was available at the time.
Posted by bhartmann
28th Jul 2010
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RE: Don't hold your breath waiting for electric cars
My round trip commute is less than 10 miles so I am less concerned about range. But unless you live a MAJOR metropolitan area forget about even getting on a waiting list. I live in the New Orleans metro area and my Nissan Leaf reservation says I will not even be able to order until Fall or winter of 2011. In addition, there are no dealers for the Chervy Volt within 300 miles. With frequent afternoon thunderstorms, terrible public transportation and short distance commutes New Orleans and many areas outside the major cities could benefit from short range low emission vehicles
Posted by Smartwired
28th Jul 2010
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RE: Don't hold your breath waiting for electric cars
The electric vehicle will turn out to be a non-player because society will realize that EVs generate more pollution and cost more than IC vehicles.

Consider, an IC vehicle is often a SULEV or PZEV emitter, sometimes less than the ambient level of pollution. Emissions will continue to decrease and fuel economy will continue to increase.

Conversely, EVs pull power from the electric grid. Electric utilities are a sophisticated business, generating electricity at an optimum of cost and pollution, no matter whether it is a high load scenario in the middle of a hot summer day or a low load scenario. Any electricity required to recharge an EV will be, at best, the most expensive and/or most polluting electricity the utility has at that point and the situation gets worse as more EVs are added to the load. There is no way to finesse this issue.

Add to this is the factor that a good percentage of electricity generated comes from carbon based sources , competing with IC engines but generating more pollution.

There is a down loadable spreadsheet at http://bit.ly/b5xI64 at the bottom that allows the user to model a vehicle's energy consumption and other factors.

Add to this that EVs do not pay road or fuel taxes for the congestion and wear they add, eventually society will figure out EVs are part of the problem, not the solution.
Posted by msd1107
28th Jul 2010
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Two other points
Previous comments about how rapidly technology changes and how quickly prices drop are well taken. A couple others;
1) GM, among others, already knew how to make a desirable electric car with a decent cruising range 15 years ago (http://www.whokilledtheelectriccar.com/). They killed it because they realized that an electric car wouldn't have enough moving parts that would break down often enough to support the massive after-market parts and repair industry.
2) Why no mention of Tesla (which makes a high-performance electric car with a good cruising range right now) and its recent alliance with Toyota?
Posted by the_doge
28th Jul 2010
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Some pros and cons of everyone going electric
Although it's true that electric cars still pollute, there is an
advantage in that it's easier and more efficient to control pollution
at a few concentrated fixed points (power plants) than at literally
millions of moving ones.

The taxation issue will be complex. As mentioned above, taxing
gasoline which in the past has worked as a very fair method of
paying for road use will eventually become obsolete.
Governments at various levels has been floating various trial
balloons as to how this might be addressed. My guess is that
eventually it will involve a GPS-based solution that will track the
miles you drive.

Yes, this is certainly an "invasion of privacy". But remember,
we're talking 20 years out, and my guess is that the younger
generations will have a far different idea of what "privacy" is than
mine or previous ones did. After all, soon government
bureaucrats are going to have access to what the inside of your
colon looks like, so where you're driving will be the least of your
concerns.
Posted by JohnMcGrew@...
28th Jul 2010
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RE: Don't hold your breath waiting for electric cars
I believe they are also being pressured to not pursue continued technology in making electric cars more efficient, affordable, and able to go much longer distances than they currently do, just like in the 80's. This will not change until every drop of oil has been discovered and pumped out of the ground. Just think about how many people there are that would buy an electric care if they were affordable and could go a reasonable distance, along with having the infrastructure available to recharge their vehicles as easily as they can now with gasoline stations. Call me paranoid; but that doesn't mean Im I'm wrong.
Posted by play720454
28th Jul 2010
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RE: Don't hold your breath waiting for electric cars
I see the interstates clogged with cars and many traveling not short distances. Plus some people like to take "motor trips" over moderate to long distances. Also sometimes people make a series of "short trips" and need the car ready to go without a long recharging delay.

I don't see how battery recharging stations can support such driving styles. Imagine how long it would take to recharge a battery for even say a 100 mile drive vs just pumping in 3 gal of gasoline.

I don't think the battery can have the energy density and rapid recharge capability to be practical, even in the future. What will be needed is a quickly renewable source of power, as is now done at the pump.
Posted by jgkov
28th Jul 2010
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RE: Don't hold your breath waiting for electric cars
An old poster from my youth stated that: "Just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean they aren't out to get you!" wink
That being said, there will always be the need for hybrid or full IC vehicles as there will be areas without utility service. These vehicles, such as electric utility repair trucks, fire equipment, etc., will need at least a hybrid system.
As for the taxation of EV's, JohnMcGrew may be right in that attitudes will change. I sincerely hope not however. We already have the ubiquitous "security" and red-light cameras that monitor our movements. It's only a little bit further before we are told when, where, how, and IF we can travel. (Papers, where are your papers??)
Posted by JTF243@...
28th Jul 2010
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RE: Don't hold your breath waiting for electric cars
Beyond the multiple infrastructures and multitude of technology needed to make it work well,
another stumbling block is that few people have the wherewithal to purchase, maintain and
house multiple specialty vehicles.

Most cars have to serve all expected uses, not just partially serve, hence the importance of
the 100 mile range (200 would be better).

The soccer mom who has to haul two kids plus equipment two days a week doesn't have
another car for the days she only has to haul one.

Likewise, the fellow who drives five miles to work, doesn't want to have a different car if he
has to take a longer trip.

Of course some people have multiple vehicles, but this concerns mass adoption, not status
purchases.
Posted by Tadd Peake
28th Jul 2010
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RE: Don't hold your breath waiting for electric cars
The problem is, electric cars are not new technology. They've been around for 100 years, and batteries have been around for 150 years. Electric cars are still too expensive. "...and then a miracle happens" is not a plan for the future of electric cars.
Posted by pbevilaqua
28th Jul 2010
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RE: Don't hold your breath waiting for electric cars
The testing and development of "new" techology should begin
with fleets of cars / trucks owned by, for instance, Your Local
Electric Company! If these companies aren't behind the concept
and willing to use their own product, why should the average
consumer take a chance?
Posted by Capt. Midnight
28th Jul 2010
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RE: Don't hold your breath waiting for electric cars
Electric cars won't come into fashion until the energy density of the batteries
that power them is equal to or greater than gasoline... read: A123 Systems.
Smart grid, renewables, all that just clouds the issue.
A Chevy Volt with A123 System batteries (or, a hybrid Jetta TDI) or a design
similar to this, would allow for a car to go all electric, but, if/when/as it
became necessary, said car could also power itself via its on-board gasoline
generator. Problem solved. The only thing thats even worth talking about at
that point is greater and greater (energy) density in the batteries... again,
read: A123 Systems.
Posted by Vailhem@...
28th Jul 2010
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check out these cars
check out the new electric cars that will be made in Iowa at this link: http://www.radioiowa.com/2010/07/26/electric-vehicles-to-be-assembled-in-webster-city/

200 mile range, 32,000 - 37,000 purchase
Posted by agbanker@...
28th Jul 2010
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RE: Don't hold your breath waiting for electric cars
I don't know why some people think that electric vehicles can't be successful unless they completely replace gasoline powered vehicles overnight. Look at the entire range of "transportation vehicles" and you'll see a wide variety of propulsion technologies.

Cars (smaller vehicles) are typically gasoline powered, but there are some diesel, and lately some gasoline/electric hybrids. Small trucks are gasoline, bigger ones diesel. Trains are typically diesel/electric hybrids, subways and trolleys are typically electric. Forklifts and jitneys have been propane or electric, jets are turbine, etc.

I think electric cars would be plenty successful if they were able to ramp up to 20% of sales over the next 20 years, 1% per year. Who can predict anything farther out? Maybe by then we'll have Mr. Fusion.
Posted by usr001
28th Jul 2010
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What about pollution??
So you are buying an electric car? Why? Is it because you want to be free from using gasoline? Is it because you want to produce less pollution? Well here's some news to consider.

Electricity for your car is not green. It will mostly come from burning fossil fuels like coal. Some very small part of that will be green power but not enough to matter. So the pollution goes from your exhaust pipe and now comes out of the power station chimney. That means extra pollution from the power stations. So electric cars are NOT green. Instead of running on gas you are now running on coal which has less pollution controls than gas. So if anything electric cars will tend to produce more pollution not less.

So these wonderful electric cars are not only very expensive, don't go far and require some nasty chemicals to make and run but they also make a lot of pollution through increased pollution from power stations.

We'd be better of researching better fuels like hydrogen - no pollution and can be derived from algae - or LPG with improvements, or other fuels.

Just something to consider.
Posted by bsit@...
28th Jul 2010
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RE: Don't hold your breath waiting for electric cars
The world is still not fully committed to making EV's really work. Why are they sooo expensive? Is it new technology? Hardly. Less long term prifits such as selling auto parts and repairs. Do you really thing think that Big Oil is still not trying to supress EV's, at least a bit? There is no other reason for the EV's to be priced so high and out of reach of most of middle America. Why buy a smaller, less roomy EV for $40,000 when you can but a very nice, larger, more comfortable Camry or Accord for half that price?
As far as miles per charge, I simply cannot believe that the auto makers cannot put either a small gas powered generator on board for emergency charging or build in solar panels to trackle charge whether driving or parked on the street.
Posted by joseph.barbarise@...
28th Jul 2010
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Electric vehicles are already a success
The entire 2010 production of 19.000 Nissan Leafs is reserved. They
sold out in March, in a few days. Without anyone seeing the vehicle in
person. The 10,000 Chevy Volts produced this year can't be reserved.
They will sell for whatever dealers demand. Many will be resold for far
more on eBay. The demand for EVs is insatiable. And the other
automakers aren't blind to this.

Range is a non-issue. The 100-mile range of the Leaf is plenty for daily
use. 70% of Americans drive less than 40 miles per day. No, you won't
drive cross country in it. But you can do 90% of your everyday driving.

Forget charging stations, no one will bother to charge during the day.
Simply plug in at night. No trip to the BP station required. Ever. Two
cents per mile, not ten.

Mass production and technology improvements will increase battery
capacity and reduce cost, just like it did for PCs and cellphones. Range
for the 2011 and 2012 models will steadily improve, costs will drop.

Charging occurs at night, off-peak, when the most cost-efficient and
cleanest electricity is produced. Utilities love off-peak demand. No smart
grid required.

EVs will be the sexiest, most sought-after vehicles of 2011. Once you
ride in once, experience the quiet, the smooth acceleration, you'll want
one. They will be the iPad of transportation. Except, unlike the iPad, you
won't be able to buy one next year. Too much demand. Sorry.
Posted by Bytefield
28th Jul 2010
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RE: Don't hold your breath waiting for electric cars
As one who has been driving an EV for the better part of the
past decade, I can address some of the concerns here. As
Bytefield says, off peak charging will be the standard since the
utilities will begin charging time of use (TOU) rates in a few
years. We already have it here in CA. I can charge at night for
10 cents a kWh, or during the day for 30 cents. Since I generate
kWh all day with my solar PV system, I sell those to the utility for
30 cents and buy them back for 10 cents late at night. Because
of this, my electric bill is a mere $100 per year, for both the car
and my house. The solar system is close to paying for itself and
will last several decades beyond.

None of my money leaves the country. When you buy gas, over
60% of your money goes to enrich other countries with much of
it going to buy the bombs and bullets that are killing our soldiers.

Good Americans don't want to participate in that.

When I drive, I'm not polluting your kid's air. When you drive,
you're polluting my kid's air. Thousands of Americans die
prematurely every year from the pollution from internal
combustion.

Good Americans don't want to participate in that.

We've lost thousands of soldiers in the Iraq war, a war fought
because they have the world's 2nd largest oil supply. We've
spent a trillion dollars, and counting. When you burn gas, you
participate in that.

Good Americans don't want to participate in that.

I've driven the Leaf and the Volt. Both are amazing cars that
appeal strongly to millions of good Americans. (As an aside to
you fast car types, I've also driven the Tesla Roadster, a
freaking amazing car!)

Those who don't care that they pollute their own kid's air, don't
care if they impoverish our economy, and don't care that
soldiers died so they could have cheap gas, well those
Americans can wait and buy an EV when gas inevitably rises
above $4-$5 and beyond. In the meantime, good Americans will
be keeping more of their money local so you can have a
stronger economy, and they'll be keeping the air from getting
dirtier so your kids don't get cancer, and they'll be reducing the
need to fight another war over oil.

There's lots more, but you can read it at
www.pluginamerica.org.
Posted by Paul L. Scott
28th Jul 2010
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electric cars
1 the writer needs to do more research yes the car manufactures cant get it together to make a affordable car how ever privet parties are making head way when the preius first came out it was wired to be full electric how ever Toyota sent them over here hobbled thru the internet people found that it could be hacked now in la classic cars can be made into full electric cars not to long ago a full electric race car set track records most recently a bbc show tested a racing gas powered gocart against a electric gocart the electric go cart held its own on a slightly different subject Brazil i believe has cars that use flex fuel so the car owner can get the cheapest price
Posted by cyberborg
28th Jul 2010
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re hydrogen feul
the problem with hydrogen in the current technology is it takes more energy to make however quite by accident some one discovered that by stripping aluminum, ore that creates hydrogen how ever mining causes pollution what we need to do is use the waste for energy it is being do slowly how ever the major obstacle the individuals in charge of the power company when the stock holders of a coal powered plant wanted to reduce pollution the c.e.o refused current wind power is so obsolete and costly inventors have made smaller more efficient wind turbans and solar panels
Posted by cyberborg
28th Jul 2010
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RE: Don't hold your breath waiting for electric cars
well all i can say or better yet ask is this.....

say 2 million cars are going to be bought in the next 6 months..

if they are all 100% gas....that's 2 million 100% new cars polluting at the current rate..

now what if 1 million are EV and 1 million are gas.....do you really expect me to believe there isn't a benefit gained by the offset...?

I'm going to go with this assumption " every new purchase of an EV = 1 less gas car + the addition of the the smaller footprint " so any way you look at it , any gain in reducing the carbon footprint is positive.......regardless of how much.....and for those of you that argue the EVs actually add to it, you need to complete you equation before you draw conclusions to it ...those arguments are only valid if people are still buying the gas car and adding an EV some how have developed the ability to drive them both at the same time......
Posted by aaron52
29th Jul 2010
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RE: Don't hold your breath waiting for electric cars
As a practical matter EV's are going to continue to be met with dismal economic obstacles. Clearly equivalent tail pipe emissions are a problem and need to be attached to the vehicle for rational comparison. Another major issue is battery cost which will impact resale value. A replacement 16KW battery for the GM Volt will likely cost $20,000, the Nissan Leaf at 24KW much much more. Even with a GM 8 yr warranty what would you pay for a 5 yr old car with a real likelihood of having to spend $20,000 in 3 yrs to keep it on the road outside of normal 8yr old vehicle repairs? In all probability near "zero". When the vehicle is 8 yrs old you will probably have to pay someone to take the vehicle: the battery is likely going to require hazardous waste disposal and then spend $20K if you want to drive an 8yr old car! So, who wants to purchase a vehicle that is a throwaway other than zealots?
Posted by oag111
29th Jul 2010
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RE: Don't hold your breath waiting for electric cars
I wonder why people don't seem to consider the concept of swappable batteries for EVs. After all that Shai Agassi has done it seems such a no brainer to me. Of course it will take a while to have a dense spread of swapping stations but... its just a matter of time. Also, going that way, you won't have to replace an 8 year old car's battery for $20,000.
Posted by fifidonkor@...
29th Jul 2010
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Considering that the batteries in current hybrids...
...weight about 150lbs, meaning that a battery for a pure-EV car
would likely have to be 2 or 3 times that, swapping them would be
difficult to impossible in practical terms.
Posted by JohnMcGrew@...
30th Jul 2010
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RE: Don't hold your breath waiting for electric cars
People don't consider swappable batteries, because you don't know what you're going to get. You drive into a charging station with your brand new EV and give away a brand new battery in exchange for some other guy's 8 year old battery, which he has dumped there.
What do you mean you won't have to replace your 8 year old battery? Are you the kind of guy who will dump it at some swapping station?
Posted by pbevilaqua
30th Jul 2010
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RE: Don't hold your breath waiting for electric cars
The point you're missing on swappable batteries is that Better Place, the company behind the battery swap stations, will own the batteries. You'll buy a vehicle from a company that works with Better Place, so it uses the right size, shape and capacity battery that's installed in the right place in the vehicle, but you won't be buying the battery, which will belong to Better Place, so it will be in that company's best interests to ensure you have a safe, reliable, fully-charged, not-8-year-old battery in place when you leave one of Better Place's automated battery swap stations.
Posted by lfisher55
30th Jul 2010
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RE: Don't hold your breath waiting for electric cars
And where are they going to get new batteries to replace the 8 year old ones? You're still going to have to pay for the $20,000 replacement battery. It will just be hidden in the price you will be charged for each swap.
Posted by pbevilaqua
30th Jul 2010
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RE: Don't hold your breath waiting for electric cars
Hi Paul Scott -- I heard you on the Joy Cardin show this morning on NPR Radio. You said the replacement battery cost would be about $10,000 for the Volt and possibly cheaper for the Leaf. Not quite $20,000 like some of the posters are writing. Great show. I learned a lot. But unfortunately like a lot of people, I won't be able to afford a $40,000 car.
Posted by suzannebraun
30th Jul 2010
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RE: Don't hold your breath waiting for electric cars
does anyone know approximately how long the electric car battery will hold a charge while sitting idol?

please respond here or email at mirandawhite19@aol.com thanks
Posted by mirandawhite19
19th Sep 2010
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RE: Don't hold your breath waiting for electric cars
Re: Paul L. Scott's assertions
The U.S. imports the majority of it's oil from Canada. Last time I
checked Canada has not blown up any americans lately. With
regards to your money staying at home, where did your EV come
from? Where was it's battery produced? Where did your solar
panels come from? Although you only pay $100 per year for
electricity, you also state it hasn't yet paid for itself, right now it's
costing you just as much as before your just paying someone else.
Posted by do the math
24th Feb
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