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Denialism is a game for the whole political family

By | November 9, 2009, 11:30 AM PST

Liberals like to look down their noses at conservatives who deny scientific studies as “denialists.”

Turns out this is a game the whole political family can play.

In his new book Denialism, New Yorker staff writer Michael Specter finds evidence of anti-science denial in many political movements, ranging from organic food advocates to those who deny evolution.

Specter defines denialism as happening “when an entire segment of society, often struggling with the trauma of change, turns away from reality in favor of a more comfortable lie.”

Sounds like an attack on conservatives who treat The Flintstones as a documentary, but it is a far more general attack on our attitudes about science.

Science often comes up with results that challenge our assumptions. From the idea of Earth going around the Sun to evolution to relativity, science’s disconnect from what we seem to observe has only accelerated in our time.

Scientific research seems to give us no place to hide and no place to stand. Whether it’s global warming, vaccines, or the organic food craze, Specter has no patience with it.

That’s because denialism is institutional stupidity. You ignore one aspect of science, you can ignore others. In a complex, democratic society this leads to comfortable lies that kill people.

Look, it’s cold. Never mind those disappearing polar ice caps, global warming is a lie. Never mind the lack of evidence — manipulating genes is always bad, the old methods of food production the only ones that are real.

In his recent interview with The New York Times, Specter aims his toughest barbs at Dr. Andrew Weil (left, from the cover of Time), the kindly-looking bearded guru of wellness.

He uses Weil’s attraction to echinacea to attack his attitude that “accruing data is simply one way to think about science.” In fact evidence, theses based on evidence, tested through experiment, are all there really is to science.

Science is not a belief system. Science doesn’t “believe” in evolution. Scientists accept evolution as the best explanation for available evidence, and as the best source of new questions about that evidence. Science is not about answers, it’s about questions.

It’s science’s constant hedging in the face of new questions, new experiments and new evidence, that makes it hard for science to be heard in the din of voices demanding absolutes and attacking those who dare ask questions as “moral relativists.”

Working scientists deal with this by putting their work to one side while discussing their political or religious beliefs, but most people don’t, can’t or won’t do this. So we scream at one another and ignore the evidence all around us.

It’s easier to live in a state of denial than to accept a scientific world where no answer is truly final.

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Dana Blankenhorn

About Dana Blankenhorn

Dana Blankenhorn was a contributing editor for SmartPlanet from 2009 to 2010.

Dana Blankenhorn

Dana Blankenhorn

Contributing Editor, Technology

Dana Blankenhorn has written for the Chicago Tribune, Advertising Age's "NetMarketing" supplement and founded the Interactive Age Daily for CMP Media. He holds degrees from Rice and Northwestern universities. He is based in Atlanta.

Follow him on Twitter.

Dana Blankenhorn

Dana Blankenhorn

Dana Blankenhorn has been a technology reporter since 1982, a business reporter since 1978, and a writer for as long as he can remember. His Schwab IRA has a few tech stocks in it, most notably some Intel and Applied Materials bought over 10 years ago. But the vast majority of his tiny fortune (emphasis on the word tiny) is invested in mutual funds. He presently writes for no one else but ZDNet, SmartPlanet and himself. But if you've got an opportunity let him know. If he takes the gig he"ll first add it to this disclosure page.

He writes for SmartPlanet and is not an employee of CBS.

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RE: Denialism is a game for the whole political family
Hear, hear!
Posted by Mabrick
9th Nov 2009
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The Scientific Method, RIP
Science, as we once respected it, died when "peer review" and the
"scientific method" was discarded in the name of political
expediency.

The hardly veiled shot at those who dispute the idea of anthropogenic
global warming is a perfect example; Since it's not possible to
honestly use the scientific method to test their theories, proponents
must resort to computer modeling to "simulate" their hypothesis.
Such models require large degrees of speculation and synthesis to
function, using statistical methods that even the social sciences
scoffed at when I was in school.

Since many of these models that are used to justify political action
are considered de-facto proprietary by their creators, they miss out
on the other half of honest science, "peer review".

It's so much easier to label all those who question the "assumptions
of scientific truth" as religious zealots looking for safe harbor in
a "comfortable lie". And I'm certain that there's plenty of people
who do exactly just that. But for the rest of us, I suggest
otherwise; that we demand honesty and transparency over political
expediency when it comes to "science". We're seeing less and less of
that these days.
Posted by JohnMcGrew@...
10th Nov 2009
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RE: Denialism is a game for the whole political family
Science has lost a lot of clout in ways besides "faith-based" adherence to irrational ideas. It's also been the victim of its own practitioners who have falsified evidence, or even the entire experimental regime, for their own selfish reasons.

Why should the layman trust the man or woman in the lab coat, when all too many of those men and women have been just as demonstrably venal and corruptible as the rest of us? Who should we trust? Our politicians are an impossible choice. What about our religions leaders? Oh, yeah, priestly scandals and cover-ups. Business leaders? Ah, yeah, that economy thing...

I would submit that science as a method is the best way to understand the "how" of our world. The "why" is probably best handled by other modes of inquiry. And the "who," unfortunately, is just the usual gang of suspects, some trustworthy, some not so. Accept it--there is no ultimately trustworthy person in our human sphere. Accept that--and deal with it.
Posted by Den2010
10th Nov 2009
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Wait a minute
Scientists who are in the popularization game (think P.Z. Myers) are prone to scientific fundamentalism. Myers likes to make categorical statements about what is real and what isn't based on his scientific thinking. This kind of rigidity is what evangelists are made of, and evangelizers of any stripe are really anti-questioning. A scientist will say that based on our interpretation of the evidence, this is what we think is true. There is no sneering at people who don't understand, there is a sincere effort to educate and explain. Evangelizers, on the other hand, rely on mockery, ad hominem attacks, ridicule and browbeating to make those who might question them feel inferior to them, and force others to bow down before their superior thinking skills. Voir the fundamentalist Darwinians, who don't explain, just sneer when someone asks a real question or presents what is felt to be a compelling fact-based argument in opposition.

So, arrogant scientists who regularly proclaim they have the answers are those most at fault for the wide-spread anti-scientism. Unfortunately, they get the most coverage, since they are loud and obnoxious, as opposed to the quieter folks who overturn the received wisdom (Barbara McClintock, for one).
Posted by carolcarre
10th Nov 2009
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Question it
The story goes like this:

Little Sally is talking to an famous adult who has made a very profound statement. She has three questions.

Who says so?
Who is he?
How does he know?

When you can answer all three you have the beginning of understanding.
Posted by lars626
10th Nov 2009
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This is nothing but "denialism" from the "junk" scientiests

It is so sad that the proponents of junk science have to resort to a battle of words to try to convince others that their junk science is the true science. Or, could it be that people like D Blankenhorn and J Dodge and that New Yorker writer are so far gone from reality that they actually do believe what their side is proposing?

People like that don't actually believe in true science. If they did, they would listen to the other side rather than to try to silence the other side with desperate arguments like the ones found in the article from the New Yorker.

The is no greater stupidity than the stupidity from those that can't handle opposing views or opposing science. There are none more stupid than those who, in the face of real and irrefutable facts, continue to perpetrate their lies. For example, in the last 11 years, there has been no "global warming" as predicted by the junk science of "global warming", and in fact, the globe has actually cooled in those 11 years. But, the junk scientists and the proponents of the junk science, including non-scientists such as the New Yorker writer, continue to stupidly pretend that it is the other side that has it all wrong.

I can play the same game as Specter:

I define denialism as happening ?when certain people in society, i.e. liberals with an agenda , often struggling with the trauma of the facts and "real science" , turn away from reality in favor of the quite obvious and very refutable lies. ?
Posted by adornoe@...
10th Nov 2009
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RE: Denialism is a game for the whole political family
I have to laugh. You think MATERIALISTIC SCIENTISM is NOT just
another form of Denialism?

You think short-term GAINS are all there is?

You think ignorance of MERE photo processing STEPS can legitimatize
NASA's faulty and defective Space Science?

You think USDA's flooding their data with junk data will make food
better?

You think USGS's taking up to two weeks to enter their earthquake
data will improve response to earthquakes?

You think CDC's confounded databasing with confabulated categories
will improve understanding and aid application of their public
health data to the health sciences?

Scientism is just as sequestered with its myths and fables as the
Vatican is!

I'm a data miner; and what I know is, everybody LIES to pad their
grants and allotments!

Posted by EmilyCragg
10th Nov 2009
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Denial ain't just a river in Egypt
I have to laugh at some of the notes on this thread. Defenses of denialism based on hatred of certain scientists, not understanding that science is a METHOD and not a belief system.

This is the heart of the matter. Science doesn't believe anything. Science doesn't believe in global warming, or in evolution, or even in the idea of the Earth going around the Sun.

Science accepts these theories as being in line with the bulk of evidence and as providing the best means for asking new questions.

Yes, there are bad scientists. Yes, there is bad science. But the bulk of science, and the consensus among scientists, leads eventually to truths that create stuff that works, like this medium you're now using.

Science, in other words, doesn't have to be believed. The test is whether it's useful.
Posted by DanaBlankenhorn
11th Nov 2009
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John McGrew
Denial of global warming is about the most pernicious and dangerous form of denialism we have.

The Arctic Ocean will be clear in 10 years. Already you can navigate across it in summertime. This is not theory, it's not belief, it is fact.

And still you deny.

I think people like you should be denied all the benefits of science. Science is engineered into all the inventions you take for granted in your life. Deny science and discard all those inventions, since they're the product of a belief you find abhorrent.

Can't do it? Of course you can't. Because science isn't belief, and belief isn't science.
Posted by DanaBlankenhorn
11th Nov 2009
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Carolcarre
Arguing against science because you don't like the behavior of some scientists is like arguing against God because you don't like some preachers.

Science is not about scientists. Science is about evidence. Evidence that proves itself in the real world, evidence that asks relevant question for future study, is the stuff of science.

Don't confuse firmly held theory with belief. That's a slippery slope toward ignorance.
Posted by DanaBlankenhorn
11th Nov 2009
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Adornoe
There are differences of opinion in science. Always have been. They are invaluable. Even when the vast majority of scientists accept a theory, the skepticism of some peers remains of enormous benefit.

One of Paul Muni's finest movies was as Louis Pasteur The bulk of the film dealt with colleagues who doubted his theories. He was constantly called upon to reject these people, but he refused, even after they were proven wrong and his theories proved right. Instead he used their skepticism to refine his theories and make new discoveries.

Don't confuse a difference of opinion among scientists, arguing about evidence, with one between theologians, arguing about belief. That way lies madness.
Posted by DanaBlankenhorn
11th Nov 2009
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EmilyCragg
I have to repeat. Science is not a belief system. Scientists make mistakes, they falsify data, they are human.

The job of scientists is to ferret this stuff out and come out with new science that proves the contrary theory.

There is no such thing as scientism. Whoever told you that was selling something, probably the idea that there is no truth and that the loudest voices (theirs) should rule regardless of evidence.

They demand you question the motives of scientists so they can ply you with attractive beliefs that have no evidence behind them, that don't lead to new discoveries, and can't be turned into worthwhile technology.

The good news is science doesn't need you to believe in it. But science does need you to debunk what you find, to be skeptical of everything you see, and to participate in the search for evidence that leads to new questions and new discoveries.
Posted by DanaBlankenhorn
11th Nov 2009
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Dana, you're lack of comprehension is scary...
..for someone who presents himself as a journalist in the area of
science and technology. At least I attempt to digest your point of
view. By your response, you clearly didn't even try to comprehend
mine.

I did not, nor never have said that warming has not occurred. What I
have said is that it is doubtful that human activity is responsible
for it to any significant degree. What I dispute is "anthropogenic"
warming, which has only been proven through the use of theoretical
computer modeling using data that is frequently cheery-picked or just
made up. Whenever flaws are pointed out, instead of defending the
data, those who question are merely derided as "deniers".

As for your assertion that " people like [me] should be denied all
the benefits of science ", let me suggest that your response is
surprisingly typical of the agenda-driven "warm-mongers", who choose
to toss insults instead of debating the facts of the matter. I'm
very familiar with the "inventions take for granted in [my]
life", and I hardly take them for granted. In fact, it's quite the
opposite. I don't take them for granted. That is why I question
"junk science" where-ever I see it.

You're snarky little comeback just confirmed what many have suggested
all along; "Smartplanet" is just another propaganda arm of leftist
environmental movement. As much as you assert that I take science
for granted, I think that you take your standard-of-living here in
America for granted, a standard of living that many behind the
environmental movement are working diligently to deny all of us. In
fact, it's the benefits of science that they wish to deny us, or at
least most of us.

But you are right about one thing: " Science isn't belief, and
belief isn't science." AGW is more belief than science.
Posted by JohnMcGrew@...
11th Nov 2009
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RE: Denialism is a game for the whole political family
Let's all come up with a few thousand theories and so-called facts that scientists have firmly believed in that have been proven false over time.

Here's one:
Scientists once believed that the universe always existed. Now they believe what most others believed all along.
Posted by mrissman1@...
11th Nov 2009
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JohnMcGrew
So global warming is real but it was the penguins' fault? Really? And because I insist on what science says as credible -- because it is backed by real evidence -- you want to attack not just my politics but damn this whole site as part of some grand "conspiracy" against you.

That is the denialist mind set. Re-read what you've written because you just demonstrated it.

The point of the book that's the subject of the post is that this is a game both sides play. Both sides. When scientific evidence doesn't approve your pet political theories, science becomes a political enemy.

Want to know the problem in that last paragraph? The word political. Science is not a belief system. Scientists don't "believe" in evolution -- they accept it as the best and most useful theory to fit available fact. Same with global warming. If another theory comes along that works better they will adapt to it, as they do constantly.

You don't understand science. You seem to think it's got something against you. It has nothing against you. Frankly it doesn't care about you. Maybe you can't stand that, but that's your problem.

Science is a method, not a belief system. Humans use that method and humans are flawed. Science often makes wrong turns. And we don't "know" or even "believe" that current theories are accurate. But they fit the observable facts, they are useful in asking other questions, and so they are accepted by a consensus of scientists. Of which there are exceptions. But I haven't heard of any scientist suggesting "spontaneous combustion" in weeks and weeks. By which I mean that scientific nonsense gets whittled down in time.

Whether it does in time to stop the destruction of the planetary ecosphere by man-made global warming I don't know. We're running the experiment now.
Posted by DanaBlankenhorn
12th Nov 2009
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mrissman1
Here's another "fact" that science once "believed" but now knows to be false.

Dinosaurs were all killed off in the great extinction, and were giant reptiles.

Evidence now suggests they did not die out, and that birds are their close relatives on the evolutionary tree.

So what? That's the scientific method in action. It's not a belief system. If someone comes up with solid evidence tomorrow that dinosaurs were actually sponges, in time that will become the accepted theory.
Posted by DanaBlankenhorn
12th Nov 2009
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Dana: You are still not seeing the bigger picture
There are differences of opinion in science. Always have been. They are invaluable.

That is not my argument.

My argument is about those, like you, who cannot stand a different set of facts which might or do disprove your "beliefs", or your side of "science". Yes, I said "your beliefs". A true believer in science will not deny that there could be other facts that nicely dispute a proposition in science. You are constantly posting articles that bring up the word "denial" or "denier" in the hope of defining those who oppose your beliefs as being the ones who are wrong and undisciplined or factually challenged. In your case, if you continue to believe in a "science" that has very easily refuted data and conclusions, then you have compromised your principles and you are not a true believer in real science. What you then have become is a person with an agenda.

Even when the vast majority of scientists accept a theory, the skepticism of some peers remains of enormous benefit.

Science should not be ruled by consensus and not by political opinion but by true research.

One of Paul Muni's finest movies was as Louis Pasteur The bulk of the film dealt with colleagues who doubted his theories. He was constantly called upon to reject these people, but he refused, even after they were proven wrong and his theories proved right. Instead he used their skepticism to refine his theories and make new discoveries.

Think about that example you just used. And it proves my points better than it does yours.

Pasteur was, in that case, a real scientist. He took the skepticism and opposing arguments and "refined his theory and his arguments, which led to new discoveries".

But, that's not how the global warming proponents do things nowadays.

The "science" of global warming is mostly driven by an agenda. And the agenda is not true science or the saving of the planet.

In the presence of data which easily refutes their science, the "warmists" come up with new excuses instead of "refined theories". In the case of global warming, for example, they point to the last 11 years of global cooling as another example which proves their "global warming" theory. With the global warming crowd, including the so-called scientists, they can't lose. No matter how many holes are punched into the theory, the holes become further proof of the theory. When Antarctica loses chunks of ice in one section, the "warmists" point to that as a sign of global warming. When others point to another set of facts that say that, Antarctica as a whole has built bigger and thicker ice, the warmists will deny it or disregard it as a fluke or wont' mention it at all. When in 2004 we had some 20 something named storms (hurricanes and tropical storms), the warmists claimed that it was as a result of global warming. But, when the number of storms dropped off precipitously in the following years, they pointed to the few storms as still being caused by global warming. When the number of tornadoes is nunsually high for a spring season, the warmists will be quick claim that it's due to global warming. But, when Europe and Canada and the U.S. go into deep freezes with unusually high snow falls, the wamists will again claim that it's because of global warming and not global cooling. Who are the "deniers" then?

When the main proponents of global warming are not scientists but political and media figures, then the science has entered into a completely different realm which is different from true science. Al Gore, as an example, is not a scientist, but he's been their most ardent proponent and the chief spokesman for "global warming". Yet, when challenged to debate his side of the argument, his only retort is that, there's no need since the "science is settled". THAT IS NOT SCIENCE!!!!

Don't confuse a difference of opinion among scientists, arguing about evidence, with one between theologians, arguing about belief. That way lies madness.

When the politics enters into scientific debates, the politics tends to dominate all the arguments. When "science" becomes "agendized", then it ceases to be true science. If science is conducted with an agenda in mind, then we aren't talking about science anymore.

Conclusive science should drive the agenda in politics when necessary. The agenda should not drive the science.

In real science, the differences of opinions should be between scientists; it should not be between scientists and the people with an agenda.

In the realm of "global warming" the differences of opinion should not even enter into the argument. Opinions should not even be in consideration. What can be disputed are the set of facts and the data and the analysis and the models used in the study and conclusions. Opinion is not part of the scientific method. Observations and facts and data and computer models and analysis and conclusions should not be subjected to opinions. The thought process in science is not equivalent to the opinion-based decision-making process in the political world.
Posted by adornoe@...
12th Nov 2009
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Adornoe -- you are still in denial
The only groups that actively deny man-made global warming are affiliated with industry of ideological groups like the Discovery Institute. They are engaging in politics, not science.

That's the plain fact of the matter. The scientific community has a broad consensus in favor of this theory. They are recommending actions that are actually economically helpful.

I believe you are the one with the agenda here. You are not listening to science, you are projecting your own politics onto scientists, and you're helping kill your own grandchildren.
Posted by DanaBlankenhorn
12th Nov 2009
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I'm sorry Dana, but you still don't get it. I am not questioning "science"
I am questioning you. I question many "scientists" (or those
pretending to be). But I am not questioning "science".

I, like everyone here is a beneficiary of "science". Without
"science" we'd still be living the hunter-gatherer existence. I work
in IT, and my educational background is in micro-economics (with a
fair amount of "science" thrown in for the fun of it), so I am well
versed in the benefits of "science" to mankind, and my personal
being. I much prefer my current lifestyle to that of a hunter-
gatherer.

Ironically enough, it's the agendas of the "junk scientists" that I
fear will inevitably lead us back more towards being hunter-
gatherers.

Second, there hasn't been any warming in the last 11 years. That's
why the new operative term used by the AGW community is now "Climate
Change". You clearly missed the memo on that. Best get to using the
new nomenclature, or else you risk looking out of touch and silly,
even amongst the believers.

"Climate Change" is real. But it's nothing new. It's always
changed. The problem with popular environmentalism is that it's
taken a snapshot of what they think the environment looked like in
1820, and have concluded that anything that deviates from that
standard is bad and one way or another we're responsible. Yes, it's
been cooler. But then again, it's been much hotter. And there's
been far more CO2 in the atmosphere before we came around and started
putting any there.

So, to answer your question, I doubt the penguins are responsible.
But I do think solar cycles are. Yes, penguins probably spurt out a
fair amount of methane. (20 times more effective as a "greenhouse
gas" than CO2 is) But it would take a hell of a lot of penguins to
compete against the influence of a 1.9891?1030 kg fusion reactor a
mere AU away.

Another interesting fact, now that we have over a decade of close
observation of Mars, we see that their polar ice caps are receding
too, This is happening on a planet where there's a conspicuous lack
of Hummer dealerships.

Another factor I personally find interesting (but there seems to be
limited study in as it relates to "climate change") is the recent
accelerated movement of the Earth's magnetic poles. Over the last
decade or so, the magnetic north pole has been on a fast-track from
north eastern Canada to Siberia. It's movement, which used to be
only a few km per year has now accelerated to over 40km. Also, the
strength of our magnetic field has weakened about 10% over the last
century.

Do consider that the orientation of earth's magnetic field relative
to it's rotational axis and the sun is responsible not only for
sparing us most of the harmful radiation that would otherwise render
the surface uninhabitable, but it also affects the absorption of
high-energy particles into the atmosphere. That means change in the
chemical reactions that take place in the upper atmosphere (ozone
levels and what-not) and, wait for it, solar energy absorption! (aka
heat!)

In the current environment where politics completely drives
scientific funding ("No bucks, no Buck Rogers!") I doubt that until
politicians discover an angle that can correlate changes in magnetic
field to human activity that there will much money dedicated to this
area of study. (I got it: Perhaps our endless drilling for oil has
altered the viscosity of the earth's mantle and core allowing it to
slip! Cool! I'm now in line for a billion in funding and on the
fast-track for next year's Nobel Prize in Physics!)

A little aside: Why did I choose micro-economics over macro-
economics? While I find macro-economics fascinating and follow it
closely, I also found it very frustrating in that in order to find
"truth", you have to make so many extrapolations and assumptions
because real data is illusive. In the end, you have to go with your
best instincts, which leaves a lot of room for myopia-based error.
Even if you are "honest" with yourself, you're still in a "black
swan" situation; coming up with results you can never be fully
confident in. If you are not "honest", you can easily manipulate any
part of the data or formula to meet your needs.

Which brings me back to "climate science". Since we only have one
planet that we can't fit into a lab environment, can't isolate many
variables or any of the possible mitigating factors, don't have but a
decade or so (out of billions) of precision observed data, and barely
a few centuries of marginally observed data, scientists need to
resort to the kind of methodologies that I found so dissatisfying
with in macro-economics, with moral hazard built in. Like with the
social sciences, many pick-and-choose data that best fit their
computer models that they themselves designed, based upon their
understanding of how things work. It's the black swan of black
swans!

So yeah. I'm skeptical. But it certainly isn't because I "don't
understand science". It's because I DO!

I understand that you don't get me John. It's hardly the first time.
Many people don't. It's so much easier to imagine me as someone so
beneath you; some ignrunt bible-thumping luddite who somehow managed
to get on-line and goes about cyberspace regurgitating nonsense heard
on talk radio. It's so much easier to do that than it is to try to
understand what I've written here and then intelligently converse
about it. In fact, I'd love to converse with you about what I really
do believe about science, technology, the environment and the future.
But because you've long since pigeon-holed me, that will never
happen. I doubt that you'll even read this post this far.
Posted by JohnMcGrew@...
13th Nov 2009
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Adornoe, Dana makes a good point...
...when he says that "The only groups that actively deny man-made
global warming are affiliated with industry of ideological groups
like the Discovery Institute. They are engaging in politics, not
science."

His argument is, of course, that money taints science, or that the
results are most likely to reflect the agenda of those cutting the
checks. So we shouldn't be surprised that "science" funded to the
tune of tens-of-millions of dollars by the oil industry is likely to
conclude that fossil fuel use is not a contributor to "global
warming" and otherwise represents no major threat to the
environment.

But will he then concede the possibility that the $100-billion
dollars doled out by governments for research on "global warming"
over the last 15 years might possibly taint the conclusions they get
in return?

Of course not. Because as we might be "deniers", he has "faith" that
unlike with the oil industry, everything managed and funded by
government and politicians is done with integrity and without bias.

(Damn tempted to violate "Gibson's Law")
Posted by JohnMcGrew@...
13th Nov 2009
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Adornoe
So you think the world's governments all have an agenda in their funding of science? Really? All of them? Really?

Really. All the world's governments are out to sell a lie of global warming...why?
Posted by DanaBlankenhorn
14th Nov 2009
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It's people like you all over the world that have the agenda...
So you think the world's governments all have an agenda in their funding of science?

No offense, Dana, but that?s a pretty stupid question.

Not all world governments, nor all countries, have the money to spend on science. So, what prompted your silly question?

But, there are many countries that are capable of funding science, junk or not. And there are many countries that stand to benefit from global warming legislation. To that end, most small and undeveloped countries would benefit from a Kyoto or Copenhagen treaty since they would have a lot of carbon credits to sell because they would not have any use for them. Hence, they would reap huge benefits from the global legislation without having to contribute anything to the junk science research, and that?s why they would all be for any global legislation.

In the U.S., the cap-n-trade legislation would be used to ?spread the wealth?. If the government is the one in charge of collecting and re-distributing the wealth, the program will in fact have become just another big government program to exert control over industries and businesses and over the people.

The bottom line is that ?global warming? is nothing more than a sham from the liberals in an attempt to take control over more of our lives.

Since ?global warming? science is junk science which cannot stand up to the scrutiny of real science, the attempts at legislation are mostly driven by political hacks and shysters such as Al Gore. Polls reveal that the majority of the American people don?t believe in the junk science of ?global warming?, and it is the politicians who are driving the efforts for ?control of the environment?, which is really an attempt for government to take over more of our lives.

Really. All the world's governments are out to sell a lie of global warming...why?

Like I stated above, your question is really a very stupid one. And oftentimes, dumb questions don?t deserve any kind of answer, but, since you are one of those that gets to set the agenda via this blog, I did have to answer the stupid question.

People like you and the democrats in congress and the whole ?global warming? movement are getting more and more desperate by the day. As your desperation grows, more and more people are finding out the real truth.

Tell me something:

What is the ideal mean temperature for the globe? What was it 100 years ago, 200 years ago, 500 years ago, 1000 years ago? What was it 10,000 and 1 million years ago? Why was Greenland get its name when the Vikings first landed on it back in the middle-ages? Who gets to determine what temperature is ideal now?

And why is it that most of the efforts for ?green? and ?global warming? legislation is driven by politicians and liberal media types, such as you, and not by real scientists? And why is it that many of the original scientists in the IPCC group peeled away from the IPCC and its global warming fearmongering and now many of them are now speaking out against the proposals and against the science of the group? Why shouldn?t the science bring sponsored by the UN and the IPCC not be questioned?

And why is it that every time that global warming ?scientists? are challenged to a debate on the science that they always refuse while stating that the ?science is settled??

So many questions; so little time; so many people with agendas instead of the truth and the real science.
Posted by adornoe@...
16th Nov 2009
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I Doubt Suggested Cause(s) and Suspect Dubious Proposals
There are too many factors that any one cause can't be effectively isolated.
The proposals appear to threaten personal freedoms and would enhance wealth of very few players without directly addressing, monitoring, or guaranteeing resolution.
Posted by donnydo77@...
16th Nov 2009
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Why? Quite simple: Power & Money
Of all the possible greenhouse gases, why the focus on CO2 which is
only 0.0383% of the atmosphere and is relatively inefficient in
holding heat, and of that man is responsible of contributing about
0.0275%?

Because there is no aspect of your life, from the moment you are
conceived until long after you?re dead and buried that does not
involve converting matter into CO2. Just by existing, you're
responsible for at least some of it. Once government bureaucracies
assert power to regulate the emission of CO2, there will be
absolutely no activity that you partake in life that will not be
subject to regulation by people you?ve never seen, heard of, or voted
for. This will ultimately mean complete control over your life.
Sure, today they talk about regulating politically-incorrect
activities such as running coal-fired power plants, driving SUVs and
jetting off to the Bahamas. But once those carbon-spewing evils are
vanquished, what will be next? How about burgers at McDonalds (bad
for both your health, and the environment), and then eventually
centralized control of your home thermostat.

Sooner or later, they will work their way down to either some
activity that you enjoy in your life, or worse, some activity that
represents your livelihood. Invent a new product or service that
somebody doesn't approve of? Unless you have protective patronage in
Congress, it will just be taxed our outlawed for not being "carbon
neutral". Meanwhile, the wealthy and powerful will continue to spew
all the carbon they like.

Nothing you do in your life will be safe from government control.
The very concept of freedom in out lives, both personal and economic,
will be vanquished.

That's for the power-hungry. Then, there's just the plain-old-greedy
who have already lined up to loot the economy. Much of the revenues
from Waxman-Markey are not slated for "green" projects, but to offset
the cost of Health Care Reform and other spending boondoggles.

All the worlds problems, nautral or otherwise are now ttributed to
AGW in the name of money. A wonderful example is what went on during
the United Nations Climate Change Conference in Bali a few years ago.
Less about science, it was more of a "spoils conference"; an
opportunity for the world's underemployed "experts" to line up and
make their case for their share of the "climate spoils" pie.

My favorite example was a feminist group who delivered a presentation
demanding that ?20 per cent of all donor funds for activities and
projects addressing women and designed and implemented by women and
gender experts.?

Well, there you go. It?s not about the environment at all, but for
providing permanent job security for ?gender experts? who?s supposed
expertise has limited marketable value in the real world. Extract
guilt wealth from the "rich" countries in the name of the "poor" or
any other perceived victim group and secure yourself permanent
employment as you produce undefined or unquantifiable deliverables.
Not a bad gig if you can get it.

(I'd provide a link to the original story, which was on a news site
in India. Unfortunately, the link no longer works, but I do had a
stored copy if you're interested)

Power over others, and money. Simple age-old desires.
Posted by JohnMcGrew@...
16th Nov 2009
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Dana: You should be ashamed of yourself...
Adornoe -- you are still in denial

Try that garbage on somebody else. It doesn?t work on me.

?Denial? and ?denier? are words specifically chosen by liberals in order to try to diminish the arguments of those opposed to the global warming hysteria and agenda. Science is about real facts and real research. Real science is not about branding people with negative terms in order to try to win the argument. ?Denial? and ?denier? are words that belong in other arguments, such as ?being in denial about the holocaust?. The holocaust was a real set of events. Global warming is nothing but a junk science and a hoax, therefore, there is nothing to be in denial about. Get it? Or should I have to explain it in a more detailed fashion for you?

The only groups that actively deny man-made global warming are affiliated with industry of ideological groups like the Discovery Institute. They are engaging in politics, not science.

You have things completely ass-backwards. I could very easily turn everything you stated above against your side and I would be more factually correct.

In fact, here goes:

The only groups that actively believe in man-made global warming are affiliated with far-left political organizations that have big government agendas, like the Democratic Party and liberal shysters in the media . They are engaging in politics, not science.

That's the plain fact of the matter.

The scientific community has a broad consensus in favor of this theory.

Consensus that?s not backed up by the facts or consensus that?s not based on good and real science is nothing but junk science. It is said that if you repeat a lie often enough, after a while, it becomes ?truth? in people?s minds. But, with people like me out here, the lie that is global warming will remain just a lie.

They are recommending actions that are actually economically helpful.

What they are recommending would be economically devastating to all businesses and to all industries in the U.S. and elsewhere. Those recommendations would be the death knell to the American economy which is already in deep stagnation. But, their recommendations are beside the point when their points are invalid to begin with. If any proposals or recommendations are based on the results of bad science, then those recommendations are nothing but politically motivated.

I believe you are the one with the agenda here.

I personally don?t have an agenda. However, I do have a wider agenda. That agenda is to stop the stupidity that the American people, and the world as a whole, are being subjected to with this whole crap science of global warming. Anybody that believes in true science and in the scientific method cannot, in any sense whatsoever, allow global warming to be classified as ?science?. Science fiction would be a more applicable and appropriate term for ?global warming?.

You are not listening to science,

No, it is you that is not listening to and following true science, and you should be ashamed of yourself.
you are projecting your own politics onto scientists,

When science becomes politicized, then it ceases to be true science. I believe in true science and what you have been preaching is nothing but junk science. I, on the other hand, regret that anyone uses science as a means to an end. If the science had any real grounding in the facts, I would still not like using the science for partisan political purposes. Yet this particular ?science? is so wrong on so many different levels that I would actually recommend that any real scientist supporting this sham should lose all accreditation.

and you're helping kill your own grandchildren.

Lose the crap. That's total garbage and it's nothing but fear-mongering. You should be ashamed of yourself.

And it is you and the likes of you that would be condemning my children and my grandchildren to a life of deep poverty. When people experience poverty, the don't give a crap about whether global warming is real or not, or they don't care none bit about any other political agenda. All they want is a job and food on the table, and with the global warming legislation being proposed, the whole world would be sent into depression and deep poverty. It is you and your agenda that will be responsible for causing misery all over the world.

Your nonsense won?t work on me, nor on any of my children; and if my children are any indication, my grandchildren will be just fine and will be good thinkers too.

My children are real thinkers and they don?t follow the agenda over the science. In fact, my daughter is a veterinarian and she understands the facts of most matters very clearly. My son is an accountant who understands the scientific principles very well after studying math for 3 years (before changing to accounting) and also was a very good student in physics for a couple of years. They too have heard the argument for and against ?global warming?, and they too see the many limitations in the global warming ?science?. They have in fact commented that the ?global warming? science does have some valid science within it, but they?ve also commented that the valid parts had to be in there in order to not be so blatantly wrong and so much junk. I feel the same way they do.

It is you that has the agenda and it is you that can?t get over your ideology. A true believer in science would be able to look beyond and over the agenda. You obviously are using the little bit of science being used in your global warming science to try to advance the liberal agenda.

Look, I know you work for an ultra-liberal organization, CBS, and I know that you?re also ideologically liberal, but do try to put principles over the agenda. I did. I used to be a liberal until I woke up and decided that I couldn?t compromise my principles over an ideological agenda. It?s never too late to do the right thing.

And, do try to get a new attack strategy. That garbage about ?denier? doesn?t work on me and it doesn?t work on the real thinkers and the strong-minded, and it certainly doesn?t work on the educated who put principles over agendas.




Posted by adornoe@...
16th Nov 2009
0 Votes
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Just wait for the nonsense that will be coming out of Copenhagen next month
US taxpayers will be asked for about $6 trillion dollars over the next
decade in the name of "climate reparations". (Makes "health care
reform" look downright cheap, doesn't it?) It's a number so absurd,
that even President Obama is likely to punt on it, putting off signing
any relevant agreements this time around.

Dana, you are right about one thing; at least amongst these people, the
time for debate has long since passed. Now, it's all about debating
the spoils. I can only hope that a good blizzard blows in during all
of this to add to the irony.
Posted by JohnMcGrew@...
19th Nov 2009
0 Votes
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Since when is "science" about "consensus"?
That's the plain fact of the matter. The scientific community has
a broad consensus in favor of this theory. They are recommending
actions that are actually economically helpful.

Again Dana, you demonstrate that you're more a propagandist than a
journalist.

First of all, there is no "broad consensus" on the matter outside of
Al Gore and Leonardo Di Caprio's social circle.

If you get 10 astronomers in a room, you can't even get all to agree
as to how many planets there are in our own solar system. And this
in a debate where even "big oil" doesn't even had a dog in the fight.

That there is any "broad consensus" is simply ignorant, or a lie. In
the "scientific community", there are those who ardently believe that
AGW is:

Not happening.
Happening, and we are completely responsible.
Happening, and we are completely not responsible.
Happening, and we are only slightly responsible.
Was going to happen anyway, and we just sped up the process.

Of those who believe we are responsible to some degree, there are
those who believe that:

It is completely reversible.
It is somewhat reversible.
It's too late; there's nothing that can be done.

It's difficult to reconcile most of those into what could be called
"consensus". Perhaps that is why many of those scientists who's work
contributed to the original IPCC report have sued to have their names
removed from it. I can only imagine how annoyed I'd have been if I
had authored a study that suggested that AGW was possible, we might
be contributing, but it was going to happen anyway and that it's not
reversible, and then have my report manipulated by politicians to
conform to what they considered the "consensus".

In case you're actually interested, I personally believe that we do
impact the climate to some degree, but not to any level that will
make any substantial difference in the long run. I think that the
real hazard to the environment are the various toxins that we spew
that end up in the atmosphere, soil, and water. (I don't consider
CO2 a "toxin") What small part of "warming" we may be responsible
for is a small price to pay for the benefits we receive through
technology and industrialization.

Over the last 40 years, we have already gone from one of the dirtiest
industrialized countries on the planet (rivers on fire, etc) to the
cleanest. And we have achieved this only because of our wealth and
determination. The affluence that we achieved in the 2nd half of the
20th century afforded the masses the "luxury" of demanding a cleaner
environment.

We are about to spend trillions on the non-existent CO2 boogieman,
which will not only destroy our affluence, but will divert resources
from the real threats to our environment, like heavy metals and other
concentrated and complex compounds let into the air, water and soil,
urban and agricultural runoff, etc, etc.

As the progressive-socialist agenda strips us of what is left of our
wealth for other lofty social goals, the result will inevitably be
that masses will no longer care about their impact upon the
environment. When people have more personal concerns like a lack of
jobs, unaffordable heat in winter, or food on the table, they tend to
care far less about their impact upon the environment.

But don't believe me; Look at Eastern Europe, much of which was left
a toxic waste dump after decades of socialist central planning.
Economies that barely made it past sustenance did not care, much less
could afford the kind of technological environmental mitigation that
we could. And the whole planet paid a price for that.
Posted by JohnMcGrew@...
23rd Nov 2009
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Oooops. Have the "scientists" been caught lying?
http://blogs.wsj.com/environmentalcapital/2009/11/20/hacked-sensitive-
documents-lifted-from-hadley-climate-center/

Somehow, I doubt we'll be seeing very much coverage of this on
"Smartplanet".
Posted by JohnMcGrew@...
23rd Nov 2009
0 Votes
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The e-mail from the East Anglia Climate Research Unit...
...makes for very interesting reading. Even as a "denier", I had no
idea (except for perhaps Mann) that these guys were this corrupt.

The database of e-mail has got everything:

o Purposeful manipulation of evidence to mask uncomfortable,
contradictory data.

o Admissions of doubt amongst themselves over weather the planet is
actually heating up!

o Conversations about deleting e-mail and other evidence regarding
messages and data that compromised their agenda.

o A coordinated effort to actually erase recorded history; the
Medieval Warming Period, which their models could not adapt to or
explain.

o Conversations as to how rid dissenting scientists from the peer
review process; an active agenda to create an environment where
anyone contradicting any of their findings would be labeled a crank
with no authority. (this would be where you fit in, Dana)

If any of this had happened in corporate America, it would be front-
page news, there'd be investigations, conspiracy charges and jail
time involved. But since so many of you have so much invested in
AGW, there will be none of that. Most of the media will ignore this
as long as possible. In the end, it will be their (and your)
credibility that will be destroyed to the detriment of all.

It didn't have to be that way, but that's what happens when "science"
becomes a "belief system".
Posted by JohnMcGrew@...
24th Nov 2009
0 Votes
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RE: Denialism is a game for the whole political family
Many people don't deny the ice caps are melting. many people believe CO2 emissions have nothing to do with this and it could all just be sun cycle related. John Coleman of the Weatherchannel (The owner and CEO) does not believe in global warming or the alarmists causes. How many scientists and meteorologists do you think he knows? These articles do nothing more than show your partialities to your liberal beliefs. All people in general have to practice good ecology. I do, but still cannot and never will advocate the job killing ideas of yours or the liberal parties you or your cohorts endorse.
Posted by partman1969@...
8th Jan 2010
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