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Without ridership, public transit fails at energy efficiency

By | November 29, 2010, 9:03 AM PST

The future is in rail! Or trolleys! Or buses! Or ferrys!

According to one expert, it’s none of these. Because if U.S. cities are serious about energy efficiency, public transit is not the way to go.

Writing at The Antiplanner, urban policy expert Randal O’Toole argues that public transit will never be more energy efficient than the private car — at least not at current ridership levels, with light rail at 14 percent, commuter rail at 21 percent and trolley buses at 16 percent.

The problem, O’Toole writes, is that public transit modes spend an awful lot of time empty:

Suppose you take a bus or train to work during rush hour and it seems full. But it really only seems full as it approaches the center of town. It is likely to be nearly empty when it starts its journey in the suburbs, and be nearly full only when it gets close to the city center. Over a single, one-way journey into town (or out of town in the afternoon), the vehicle is likely to average only about half full.

Plus, that bus or train has to return in the other direction, and then it could be nearly empty. Now the transit line averages just one-quarter full. Add to that all the trips made during non-rush hours, and it is hard to imagine that transit vehicles can possibly average much more than one-fifth full.

There’s no doubt that public transit helps in myriad ways, from neighborhood development to economics. (Infrastructure investment carries a high price tag, but it also stokes an economy in a way that few other projects does.)

But an environmental argument? O’Toole says it’s not as rosy a picture as it seems:

The high rail non-fuel costs cancel out the slight fuel-related energy savings of rail transit over cars. In any case, the only strategies that might make transit energy efficient are to run it only during rush hours or only in dense city centers–and even then there is no guarantee. Of course, there is a third strategy: privatize transit and let the private owners decide when it is efficient to run.

Of course, privatization also means putting at risk all of the other benefits of transportation authorities. But it’s a daring suggestion, because most transit authorities are not successful businesses, and regularly run in the red.

What do you think?

[via Planetizen]

Photo: Ed Siasoco/Flickr

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Andrew Nusca

About Andrew Nusca

Andrew Nusca is editor of SmartPlanet.

Andrew Nusca

Andrew Nusca

Editor

Andrew Nusca is editor of SmartPlanet and an associate editor for ZDNet. Previously, he worked at Money, Men's Vogue and Popular Mechanics magazines. He holds degrees from the Columbia University Graduate School of Journalism and New York University. He based in New York but resides in Philadelphia.

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Andrew Nusca

Andrew Nusca
Andrew Nusca does not hold any investments in the companies he covers.
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+1 Vote
+ -
RE: Without ridership, public transit fails at energy efficiency
I agree with this article since I have ridden a bus, train and
trolley. I've seen where the occupancy where there would be
no more than 5 people. Depending on what fuel or power these
public transportation uses, it can be very inefficient. Even with
the newer hybrid transports or efficient rail systems, low
occupancy could hurt. Privatizing can help in certain situations
but overall, we as a nation need to reduce fuel usage in motor
vehicles. The other problem would be the energy consumed by
our buildings. We at Energywyze have done some amazing
things. Our website is at http://energywyze.us give us a call.
Tony
Posted by Energywyze
29th Nov 2010
-1 Votes
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RE: Without ridership, public transit fails at energy efficiency
What is the occupancy rate of private cars? Most 5 passenger cars I see are only 20% occupied, i.e. only are holding the driver, and that goes for 7 passenger vans, SUV and the like. I assume that they consume less fuel per capita, but, for instance, isn't rail transportation more efficient in terms of mpg? Seems to me that there is a need to figure out a true apples-to-apples comparison that takes into account the true per capita costs and also the true consequences of NOT having the public transportation options currently available and also what it would look like without these options in the future if population growth continues.

It doesn't sound to me like this study does any of these things. How 'bout poking around for a better study that actually tells us something useful instead of providing readers with a flashy conclusion with very little substance?
Posted by klassman6
29th Nov 2010
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RE: Without ridership, public transit fails at energy efficiency
This is a very narrow view. The energy consumption of the whole fleet needs to be taken into account. Given a fixed amount of road capacity, if everyone took private cars (instead of transit) there would be more congestion, more delay, and more overall consumption of energy by the whole fleet. Where some vehicles are removed through taking transit or by carpooling, there are significant savings for everyone else, both in terms of energy use and time and emissions savings.

This community benefit that comes from transit (everyone else's consumption and emissions are reduced and time is saved) is a good reason for the community investing in transit (one man's investment is another man's subsidy), and when we say there is red ink it just needs to be less than those savings to make sense.

And then there are the social aspects of a transit service that are about helping those without cars to get around.

But what about the carpooling? If we could get the benefit of transit during congested periods without all the costs, wouldn't that be better?

We are having a workshop at the Transportation Research Board Annual Meeting in January, focused on the question of how to double carpooling within the decade. All invited.
Posted by paulminett
29th Nov 2010
+1 Vote
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RE: Without ridership, public transit fails at energy efficiency
Calls to privatize public transportation are disguised efforts to do away with the service. Yes, there are times and sections of a route that have low occupancy, but they may be offset both in financial and environmental costs by the busy usage times or busy parts of the route. Many times, for a system to be viable, it must be a complete system. What if our postal service delivered only to heavily populated areas? What if U.S. highways did not run through rural areas?

There are things are best provided by government entities, both for the sake of efficiency and because citizens need the services.
Posted by LedLincoln
29th Nov 2010
+1 Vote
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RE: Without ridership, public transit fails at energy efficiency
The key word and concept here is public - When an individual rides alone in his or her car, he or she is responsible for all costs. This study only reaffirms other studies that show public transportation is a negative drain on all resources within the U.S. Even if he or she is riding alone, the more cost thinking individuals will plan his or her trip so that he or she will not have to go out again.

Regardless if you believe that Eisenhower's building of the Interstate was a conspiracy with the automobile manufacturers, this is what is is right now. Additionally, the US is so spread out to compare rail in the US to other less expansive and far more dense respective to population is not a fair comparison.

Handling cargo by train is far more efficient and has been embraced within the logistics industry. So when something is efficient it is usually embraced in the marketplace.

Apples to oranges (public to private) is never truly researched because within the public arena there is this belief of helping those who cannot compete in the private sector such as ride pubic transportation versus drive their own vehicle. Even when public transportation is used within a highly dense area such as a major city it is still not profitable for a variety of reasons including no competition. Just look to Fed Ex and UPS to show how competition can be successful in a previously held monopoly called the US postal system.
Posted by Coach-Lee-428
29th Nov 2010
+1 Vote
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RE: Without ridership, public transit fails at energy efficiency
Of course, this is partly because it is not efficient, clean or convenient
because we spend so much time on the fence about whether to have
adequate systems, and of course, the other side of the coin is that the
auto industry was subsidized and supported heavily over the years and
US consumers are married to their cars as a result.

What we need is more efficient and truly lighter train systems that are
also convertible on the fly. If nobody has noticed, the trains/metros
mostly look like they did in 1965 - and I'm pretty sure they are still
running cars that are that old too. Trains should be able to add cars
as they head into busier markets and to shed them as the leave. I've
never understood why buses are built like tanks, but barely hold any
passengers - we should have rubber wheeled convertible bus systems
that are a ton more efficient - current buses get about 6mpg.

Secondly, is there a reason a train car has to weigh so much? Metro
cars weigh in the 60-80k lb range each - which seems to me would
waste a lot of energy to push/pull around. So, innovate in the industry
and build them with advanced materials and start a whole new industry
to give people jobs! Stop pushing highways and cars and just like
Coca Cola sells Coke, sell public transportation to the people. Why is
it 'the American way' when Coke does it, and it's socialist when the
government does?
Posted by afrancis99
29th Nov 2010
+1 Vote
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RE: Without ridership, public transit fails at energy efficiency
@klassman6
You make some good points, but your argument is also flawed. Yes, I maybe driving my 5-passenger car at only 20% capacity (after dropping off kids at daycare: 60%) -- but I only operate when I need to, not a constant rotation of routes over an 18-24 hour day like some mass transit lanes. I also only drive from a rural area to a secondary suburb - not all the way into the city center. So, if we do compare apples to apples (total mileage traveled per person in a car vs. mass transit), I'd venture to guess the car still comes in lower.
Also, If I do decide to take light rail into the city center, I have to drive an additional 7-10 miles out of my direct car route to access the "closest" light rail station. I consider our light rail (Mpls.) as more of a convenience and crowd control management during events rather than an energy savings.
Posted by mnotter
29th Nov 2010
+1 Vote
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@PaulMinett re: Transportation Research Board Annual Meeting
Paul,

Sounds like a great workshop. Mind posting more information about
it for the benefit of other SmartPlanet readers?

Thanks,
AJN
Posted by andrew.nusca
29th Nov 2010
+1 Vote
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RE: Without ridership, public transit fails at energy efficiency
One item not mentioned in the article is time wasted as a passenger. My commute takes 25 minutes whether by car or motorcycle - averaging 30 (auto) to 75 (motorcycle) mpg. Using Denver's RTD my commute takes 2.5 hours..each way. So...I can leave home at 6:30am and back home by 5:30pm via personal vehicle. Using the bus system I leave home at 5:15am, drive 2 miles to a park and ride and still end up 1/2 hour late, then hike 1/2 mile to work from the bus stop, leave work late and if I'm lucky catch the bus(es) which might get me back to the park and ride by 7:30 pm. I'm guessing that's true for a great deal of the population.

If I worked in downtown Denver, then yes, it would be a different story, but most of us do not - and that demographic will never change.

The routes in my area are packed during rush hours, but have a mere sprinkling of passengers at other times, many times empty.

Due to routing that doesn't work for the majority and commute/work time constraints I do not believe public transportation will EVER even come close to breaking even. Not to mention that my gasoline expenses are less than the fares to boot.
Posted by GregGold
29th Nov 2010
+1 Vote
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RE: Without ridership, public transit fails at energy efficiency
I carpool to my office with two co-workers at least twice a week (when our various schedules permit this luxury), but find it often more practical to commute alone in my hybrid Honda Civic when the carpool isn't available. I live about 23 miles from my office. I can take public transit (BART) at a cost of $6.40 round trip and about one hour of my time, but since my car gets 44 miles per gallon, my 46 mile round trip by car costs me less than half the transit fare even if gasoline goes up to $3.25 per gallon (and only takes 25-30 minutes, depending on traffic). BART is heavily subsidized by the taxpayers, and many estimates suggest that the system would have to charge a minimum of $8 for any one way ticket to any destination, just to cover its base operating costs.

Much as I enjoy riding the train, I already subsidize BART through my taxes AND paying the regular fare when necessary. A good deal of the system's costs are NOT related to train and track maintenance, but to a fully unionized workforce that earns far higher salaries than most of their passengers (see the Contra Costa Times expose of BART employee salaries at (http://www.contracostatimes.com/public-employee-salaries/). Even entry level positions such as station agents make $85,000/year not including overtime, which often pushes their annual salaries over six figures. And, of course, they all enjoy a generous pension plan that will eventually bankrupt the system.
Posted by terry.floyd@...
29th Nov 2010
+1 Vote
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RE: Without ridership, public transit fails at energy efficiency
what we now take to be "public" transportation ALL started out as PRIVATE companies running them - and then the cities forced them all out of business and took it over for the "public" good to run under central government control.
Posted by TAPhilo
29th Nov 2010
+1 Vote
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RE: Without ridership, public transit fails at energy efficiency
This article is riddled with flawed thinking.
1. Efficiency has to be measured by passenger mile. How much fuel does it take to transport one person one mile? Any other metrics is flawed. As ridership goes up so does the efficiency of any mode of public transportation.
2. The problem with privatization is that both light rail and buses were once privately owned. When the highways were built public transportation was abandon.
3. You must take into account how much money subsidies roadway construction. I heard a figure that the Federal government spends 105 billion dollars a year in road construction. This figure doesn't include state and local authorities.
4. You must always account for associated costs of any action. In this case cars lead to thousands of deaths a year due to accidents and illness due to pollution. They also pollute our waterways.
5. Public transportation always has to balance efficiency and flexibility. People who don't own cars must travel in hours outside working hours. Furthermore, as gas becomes more expensive more people will take public transportation, making transit more efficient.
Posted by JT4
29th Nov 2010
+1 Vote
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RE: Without ridership, public transit fails at energy efficiency
I ride the train (Amtrak and Metrolink) in Southern California daily. The cars are rarely more than 50% full even at rush hour. Most riders prefer to sit alone and seating arrangements that complement that will be most efficient (too often I see 1 person spreading out in a 4-person seat arrangement.) Even in this highly populated area, the train service is not profitable. See the Amtrak and Metrolink public documents for numbers. Energy efficiency wise, I have compared driving an efficient diesel and riding the train. They were very close, but the train efficiency may have been based on a higher passenger load than actual - the number was provided by Amtrak.
I suggest that public transit be privatized but publicly regulated. Buses in Guatamala have a driver and ticket taker who actively solicit riders which implies that they are rewarded by number of tickets sold rather than paid by the hour. There are many to choose from so the interval between departures is small. The US public would benefit from a similar privatization of buses. Like taxis who wait at the train station in a line 9 deep. No one is paying the drivers to wait there. They do it because they don't have a better option. Take away the public supported mass transit and individuals will fill the gap - not big corporations.
Posted by liferlm
29th Nov 2010
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RE: Without ridership, public transit fails at energy efficiency
10-4 on that one, good buddy.

Here in Austin, they built a commuter rail on existing freight tracks, to take riders from the northwest suburbs to downtown in the morning, and back again in the afternoon. It doesn't run nights or weekends, and only server a small geographic area.

It costs millions upon millions of dollars and gets about 800 fares a day... not riders but fares, which is >2x riders.

It would have been cheaper and more environmentally friendly to have given each rider a new hybrid or electric or some other high mileage low emission vehicle.

It's a total boondoggle.
Posted by bb_apptix
29th Nov 2010
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RE: Without ridership, public transit fails at energy efficiency
In Mexico, privately operated vans run on an as-needed basis. The operators know the business and run as many as are needed, so riders never have long to wait, yet at times when there are few passengers, there are no empty vans driving the routes. Having chosen this route to get to town from a resort, rather than taking a cab or the government-operated bus (options the resort recommended) saved both time and money. The locals use these vans extensively!

Taxicab ordinances could be modified in U.S. cities to allow (and encourage) the use of the vans, and in cities with high immigrant populations, they should gain acceptance quickly, because the population is already familiar and comfortable with this mode of transportation.
Posted by AlanLaRue
29th Nov 2010
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RE: Without ridership, public transit fails at energy efficiency
Fuel efficiency is not the entire point, nor is it easily measured in terms everyone can agree on. Pollution from cars (water, medical costs, etc.)? Dependence on oil? Annual automobile death toll? Cities where public transit is packed vs. those where it is not? The arrogant "me" based thinking of the suburban commuter? Effects on the working poor? These and other factors seem not to be considered in this "study". There are so many degrees of freedom, particularly when the author tries to generalize the results of his arithmetic problem to various locales and populations, that it is difficult to see how this can be considered anything but unencumbered by empiricism. fail.
Posted by liberryair
29th Nov 2010
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RE: Without ridership, public transit fails at energy efficiency
I'd have to see more data to know whether his point is valid or not. Considering the source, a Cato "friend", I'm highly suspicious. Cato and friends typically ignore anything that goes against their one size fits all situations, me-first ideology, and cherry pick all over the place - the end justifies the means.

Some lines in some areas are more efficient than others - what he shows is some average and averages are pretty useless except to make useless points; moreover, there are more train-cars running during peak times than at non-peak - is that taken into account? Third, getting on during peak times, the ridership is typically SRO after the 1st few stops on the more crowded lines. Fourth, if we abolish even the less efficient lines, the increase in traffic will greatly increase congestion and increase the amount of auto fuel burned, thus reducing their efficiency and wasting more time waiting in super-gridlock (oh yeah, just build more roads - in Manhattan, where??? who would pay??? "somebody else"). Fifth, in areas where the electricity is from hydro, the carbon footprint from "fuel" is very much in the favor of trains.

There are other reasons for mass transit which are not trivial: one is to reduce congestion from traffic - time, gas, parking - and the need for more parking in already congested areas - drop the trains and watch time wasted and gas wasted and parking rates multiply; another is that many can't afford cars including the insurance, operating/maintenance costs, and parking fees (Cato's solution: too bad, lazy b***ards; get a job so you can buy a car to get to your other job); a third is access, not just for those on crowded "efficient" lines but for those coming from less crowded areas.

As for the "increasing occupancy of trains would make them more efficient but so would increasing occupancy of cars" argument that autos will always be more efficient, Cato would be TOTALLY against any incentives to increase auto occupancy - that's planning, after all - and as such, is a false comparison that they would NEVER condone.
Posted by swatter
29th Nov 2010
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RE: Without ridership, public transit fails at energy efficiency
I forgot: did they include the environ footprint of highway construction?
Posted by swatter
29th Nov 2010
+1 Vote
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Missing the basics.
They could make mass transit more cost effective if the bought appropriate equipment. You don?t need trains capable of 70 mph on the green line in Boston when the top speed on the line is 30.

If they bought trains to fit the job they would likely weigh less, have smaller power needs and be built with simpler designs. All of which leads to lower costs to purchase and operate.

Amtrak did the same thing with Acela. They paid for trains that can run at 150 mph, but they typically run them at 80 mph or less. Even trains rated for 100 mph would likely have simpler designs and cost less to purchase and maintain.

When it comes to hardware in any industry there are many who believe that 90 percent of the cost comes with the last 10 percent of performance. So why spend the extra money if the high end performance is not going to be used.

I also agree that services like buses and trains ran better when they were privately owned and operated. Government owned mass transit has been a costly failure in the US.
Posted by Hates Idiots
29th Nov 2010
+1 Vote
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Rare sanity in the rail debate
There was a very interesting study from Britain a few years ago
that concluded when all of the costs and demands of running a
rail system were included (such as all the people who are
employed by it having to drive to work) there were very few
systems world-wide that were comparable to the private
automobile.

In fact, the only systems that were consistently "carbon efficient"
were in Japanese urban centers, where they literally pack people
in trains like sardines.

As for my car, it's always at at least 50% occupancy, and like
mentioned above, is only moving when I need it to.
Posted by JohnMcGrew@...
29th Nov 2010
+1 Vote
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RE: Without ridership, public transit fails at energy efficiency
Arguments to substitute private bus companies for public bus transport may have some merit in some areas, but substituting in underground rail would be a far trickier operation - how would that be done? Subbing private buses for underground rail isn't feasible in major metro areas, where the undergounds tend to be, as it would greatly increase gridlock (wasted time, wasted gas).

As for the example of taxis lining up at the train stations as a private response, most of us don't live or work at the train station. Many need to get from point a to point b during non-peak hours, meaning that private buses that only run during peak would leave a community wanting - the community would have to contract for certain in between times, but then, that's not that different from a public solution. But the main reason why Mexico has such private services is the lack of public ability to pay; they seem to work well because people adjust to the private system rather than the private system having adjusted to them.
Posted by swatter
29th Nov 2010
+1 Vote
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RE: Without ridership, public transit fails at energy efficiency
As usual, this article, and the report it cites, leave out the over-
riding most important factor. The REAL energy efficiency of cars
has to include the imbedded energy and material costs of
building the car, amortized over the useful life of the car.
Estimates run that they are roughly equivalent to 100,000 miles
of fuel, much higher for inefficient cars, quite high for hybrids
because of the batteries.

Transit buses and trolleys and rail cars have much lower
amortized embedded energy costs per rider -- until these
components are included this kind of calculation is comparing
apple cores to oranges, and is worse than meaningless -- it is
completely wrong. These reports usually come from right-wing
think tanks who are paid very well to lie with statistics.
Posted by SantaCruzRed
29th Nov 2010
+1 Vote
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And, as usual @SantaCruzRed...
...most reports ignore the REAL energy efficiency of public transit,
specifically the embedded energy and material costs of building and
running the system. These reports usually come from constituency
groups that pay well for statistics that are no less biased than the
right-wing think tanks.
Posted by JohnMcGrew@...
29th Nov 2010
+1 Vote
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RE: Without ridership, public transit fails at energy efficiency
My first thought when I read the article was "Just wait until gas costs more than $5/gallon in 5 or 10 years. You'll see a huge increase in public transit ridership."
Posted by riverat1
29th Nov 2010
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RE: Without ridership, public transit fails at energy efficiency
We have limited public transportation in the central part of my state. You can take the train to the city but you better watch the clock on the other end or you won't make it home. All of the train and subway lines lead to the same point. If that's your destination it can work, but if you need to go to a stop on another line the time it takes is ridiculous. A 1 hour trip by car or motorcycle takes 3 to 4 hours when you have to take a train 40 miles, switch to the subway for 5 miles, then wait at another train station to head another 35 miles. Not too practical; I did it on a Saturday morning when I was not in a rush, but it wouldn't make any sense on a daily basis.
Posted by philwhite42@...
29th Nov 2010
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RE: Without ridership, public transit fails at energy efficiency
Interesting editorial. Without facts there is little here than opinion. I see an observational assessment of a transportation system that only examines a small portion of the whole system. Math is math and you can't make the assumption that a public transportation system is used at or less than 20% unless there are clear numbers indicating that as a fact. Also consider, time of year, geographical location, weather patterns, local economic conditions and so on that may affect ridership (or overall use of the public system).

Even with that information you still need to consider all other forms of transportation in the system, their utilization rate and the cost of ownership of that mode of transportation per consumer of that mode to arrive at some kind of lowest common denominator t o then convert into the energy efficiency of each mode of transportation.

In addition to the basic energy comparison there are a number of other balancing factors that need to be considered. A big one is the convience or rather the inconvenience factor. I work an 8 hour day with a one hour lunch. In order to use public transportation I would add another 1+ hours to my current 1 to 1.5 hour 19 mile commute (one way, 2 - 2.5 hour round trip). That would change my current 11 hour day into a 13 plus hour day with the added bonus of having the potential to be mugged, shot, stabbed or otherwise harmed while the public transportation officials watch and wait for the authorities to arrive, assuming the driver sees the incident and responds to the incident at all.

I have to admit, I've never been threatened, shot, or stabbed in my car. I haven't had to sit idle in my car while transit authority and police come to resolve an altercation in my front seat. I've never had to wonder what that odd smell is or if I can sit down on the way home. I could go on but I think my point is made.

Consider all the variables before making an energy efficiency measurement of a car or of public transportation, and above all else gather real facts and figures that compair the same parameters together before making the claim (opinion or not), that "without ridership, public transit fails at energy efficiency."
Posted by spoonology@...
29th Nov 2010
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RE: Without ridership, public transit fails at energy efficiency
There are a bunch of issues to resolve with regard to public transportation; these are just a few:

* To encourage ridership you must run almost 24/7
* There are not enough spur lines or taxis to get people where they need to be
* The creep factor is hideously high outside of rush hour

Until all private vehicles are banned within x-miles of a destination - shopping malls included - you ain't never getting people our of their cars.

...and if you tell people they can't drive to the shopping mall, you might finally get enough Americans involved to have a revolution.
Posted by steve.hammill@...
29th Nov 2010
+1 Vote
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RE: Without ridership, public transit fails at energy efficiency
Here are some simple views from a simple minded person:

When more people drive than people take pub transit:
Pub transits are less filled and most private cars driven -> Pub transit is less efficient than private cars

When less people drive than people take pub transit:
Pub transits are more filled and less drive private cars are driven -> Pub transit is more efficient than private cars

The answer: More people need to take public transit because the more people stay in the public transits, then less people sit in the private cars at the same time.

But why so many people are not taking pub transit? If a person commutes from A to C can only take public transit from A to B, but there is no connecting public transit from B to C, then this person would feel more convenient to drive a private car.

One way to have more people take public transit than drive private cars is to increase public transit lines to build a public transit network. Of course, the public transits needs to be clean, comfortable and well organized.
Posted by yesqiqi123@...
29th Nov 2010
+1 Vote
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RE: Without ridership, public transit fails at energy efficiency
It's really quite simple. Crowded cities with poor transportation planning is the root cause - not ridership. Why have 100,000 people attempting to get into a small city center space in the morning and out again in the evening? Why not dissipate the businesses into the suburbs? The 19th century concept of crowding into cities is no longer viable.
In short, plan the suburbs (and the entire nation) more logically as a holistic whole to what we want our living world to be. Instead of the homes and merchants in the suburbs add the corporate and other businesses into the mix. Add manufacturing into the mix, afterall, if it can't be a good neighbor why do we want it anywhere? Finally, keep as much of the agricultural land as possible as agricultural land, and keep green spaces all through the countryside. If I could bicycle to work every day I'd be really happy, but try doing that in the center of most major cities.
Posted by mallen.paralegal@...
29th Nov 2010
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RE: Without ridership, public transit fails at energy efficiency
A fairly interesting article and I'm not so sure I fully agree with the
writers point of view it certainly does raise some points...

I'm in Western Australia in Perth, one of the most isolated cities in
the world and we have a fairly extensive public transport system
that for the most part works quite well...

I couldn't imagine any modern city without some kind of bus/rail
system being terribly efficient
Posted by shaddowofadream
29th Nov 2010
+1 Vote
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I doubt it @riverat1
Just wait until gas costs more than $5/gallon in 5 or 10 years.
You'll see a huge increase in public transit ridership.

Once inflation kicks in, (which will inevitably happen since the fed is
now officially printing money) the cost of alternative transportation
will rise along with the cost of operating an automobile. And the
rising cost of gasoline does not eliminate the shortcomings of public
transportation. (Time, inconvenience, unpredictability)
Posted by JohnMcGrew@...
30th Nov 2010
-1 Votes
+ -
Good options have been proposed.
There is one concept for urban/suburban travel that would be built on a low cost monorail system using suspended pods built like the cockpit of gliders. The pods would hold 2 to 4 people or cargo.

Riders would hop in a pod at a local station and select a destination from a touch screen. IP routing logic would route people over the least congested routes between points. Air bags would make the pods safe even from a 30-foot fall. Collision avoidance radar in each pod would prevent collisions with disabled pods or pods merging at points in the system.

If a station ran out of the pods the system would automatically route pods to it from a holding area or a nearby station. If the number of arriving cars at a station exceeds the capacity of the station the system would route empty cars to nearby staging points or other stations.

Traffic monitoring would allow the creation of staging areas in places where excess cars could be held to help the system cope with rush hour use.

Major business parks could have the light monorails run right up to the building where employees could access the system, but it also makes it possible for automated pods to deliver packages and mail to and from UPS, FEDX or USPS which would all be on the system.

Compared to any light rail system the cost to build such a system would be peanuts. It would also be a greater feeder into a regional rail system.
Posted by Hates Idiots
30th Nov 2010
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RE: Without ridership, public transit fails at energy efficiency
Interesting discussion. It does seem hypocritical for us readers to demand the article writer to present us with a God-like overview of the Facts, then turn around and make broad assertions of what is best without any Facts backing up these assertions.

I use public transportion on a routine basis and my experience is that it is very safe, takes an hour more daily than only driving, requires me to drive at both ends (18 miles and 2 miles), and the only reason I do it is to nap for an hour each way.
Posted by liferlm
30th Nov 2010
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RE: Without ridership, public transit fails at energy efficiency
Who says public transport has to turn a profit? In a free society mobility should be a right not a privilege based on your financial and physical capacity to own and operate an automobile. Let?s get real and give the unemployed, the underprivileged and the physically disadvantaged the same opportunity to move outside their local communities. There are also those who simply don?t like driving and shouldn?t have to. These can be a hazard on the roads but they have no choice. Every town and village should be connected by public transport and preferably by train or light rail. They are the most efficient. I find it sad that once most of the country was so connected. The private automobile is not compatible with a warming planet any way you power it. Automobiles should be taxed by the mile at a rate that would subsidize cheap public transport. (A tax per gallon of gasoline is now antiquated with the advent of electric cars.) Privatization is certainly not the answer. If roads were built by private companies instead of by the government few of us could afford to run a car and paying tolls would be a nightmare. Ah yes, the government would have to issue a card that all of the companies recognized or have a standardized electronic system of recording each car. True privatization does not work without backing from government regulations. If public transport, which at present has to build and maintain its own roadbeds, was subsidized, making it universal and cheap, the ridership would be forth coming. Our culture would then not be just a little greener, but also a little more humane.
Posted by ruthchar@...
30th Nov 2010
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RE: Without ridership, public transit fails at energy efficiency
Raytheon was working on a pod concept transportation system with the city of Chicago sometime in the 80's I believe. I don't know what happened, but it hasn't ever caught on.
As for the Green Line in Boston or any of the other city lines, how many texting T drivers have crashed in the last couple of years? I prefer to be responsible for my safe passage, rather than some MBTA kid on his cellphone.
Posted by philwhite42@...
30th Nov 2010
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RE: Without ridership, public transit fails at energy efficiency
Public transit as currently expressed, is a very different life-style than a personal vehicle--it requires lifestyle changes in order to return to the lifestyle before mass transit started being driven out of business in the early 20th century--mostly by cities cutting routes with few riders to fewer and fewer runs until it was so inconvenient that the riders went elsewhere.

You cannot run mass transit based upon ridership until you have a majority share of travel.

The fact is that most people don't actually use the freedom that driving gives them on a daily commute basis--they go to work & then home again at the same times every day.

Public transit is popular and in wide use in places where the society never left the idea, and in places like NYC where driving & parking are nightmares.

The easy solution (if there is one,) is to artificially boost ridership by making auto use difficult, expensive or impossible and/or by supporting the system costs from other sources while developing the system and ridership.

But cities mostly aren't designed with any sort of mass transit in mind--if you don't count cars. This makes building the systems difficult and expensive (though the equipment and infrastructure lasts far longer than most cars.)

The other benefits: fewer accidents, less stress, etc. are seldom included in the costs of driving vs transit.

We have had the technology for several years now (like 20!) to automate the highway traffic--something which should be done very soon for several reasons.

The requirements to automate highway traffic are not truly difficult or expensive, and there are many benefits:

To automate freeway traffic requires:
stationary GPS receivers every so often along the roadway.
Collision avoidance systems--ideally the auto-drive on each car talks to the cars nearby, coordinating actions and reporting road conditions.
A GPS/video location system. Federal highways are largely standardized for signage and painting, which combined with GPS (accurate to a couple inches with those road-side GPS units, can easily keep you on course.

Benefits?

Far fewer accidents.

Real-time road condition information down to where new potholes or debris have developed...cheaper to repair early than late!

Humans take around 2 seconds to respond to events. Automated systems can respond 10-100 times faster. This enables a string of cars to run at train car spacing--milliseconds apart rather than 3-5 seconds--more safely than humans traveling at the correct 3+ second separation (something which rarely happens, most traffic is between .5 and 1.5 seconds apart--too close to stop safely!)

Such close spacing would eliminate a lot of the need for highway expansion, since you can fit (safely) 10 x the number of vehicles across the same roadway,

Close spacing allows the train of cars to run as a unit, since the time delay between an event and all car auto-drives reacting can be sub-second...tens of cars running inches apart can stop safely because they all start braking at the same instant and at the same rate, monitoring separation to avoid accidents.

Rested drivers. You could get in the car in NYC and drive coast to coast taking control only when you needed to exit the highway for food & gas & other reasons. You could work, sleep, & whatever during the freeway time.

Higher speeds. An automated system reacts fast4er, and because each car has a very good idea of what the roadway is like ahead, an active suspension can give a nearly perfect ride.

Costs?

Hardware for each car could be made for around $1000 per car as a built-in option, as an add-on it would cost a bit more. It is likely that insurance premium savings alone would cover the costs in a couple years.

What about all the manually controlled vehicles?

The automated systems collision avoidance and inter-vehicle communication would permit them to handle integrated manually controlled vehicles--and report violators. Alcohol and drug detection control locks could prohibit such abusers from taking manual control.

Many of the benefits of train rapid transit, without the hassles of stop&go travel and with the benefits of having an individual vehicle when you need one.

But the infrastructure is cheaper and more flexible--if you build a train track and people's destinations change, you may be left with a lot of expensive roadbed unused. With automated driving, so long as the roadway is in the system, people can pick any destination they want.

It offers the advantages of personal ownership (primarily the American desire for a car!) including the maintenance load being placed upon the individual, on privately owned property--the graffiti and destructive public property disadvantages go away.

And no need for central large stations or pulling hundreds of travel seats off line to repair them.

No thieves on board, semi-permanent safe places for your stuff--and you can take more with you than is easily carried on a train.

Cheaper, safer, less hassle, more reliable and paid for by the users, such a system has many reasons to choose ti over regular mass transit systems.
Posted by wizoddg
30th Nov 2010
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Link to a good resource on energy and transportation data
If you follow references to the link to the Antiplanner above, it contains a link to the "Transportation Energy Data Book:
Edition 29" at http://cta.ornl.gov/data/tedb29/Edition29_Full_Doc.pdf . This 385 page document from the Department of Energy is chock full of good info about petroleum reserves, world energy use, characteristics of cars, etc., that are a very valuable resource for anybody interested in transportation issues.
Posted by zackers
3rd Jan 2011
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