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Nuclear, solved: small ‘modular’ reactors on an assembly line?

By | February 15, 2011, 7:28 AM PST

The Obama administration’s 2012 budget proposal includes a request for funds to develop small “modular” nuclear reactors to power a government lab.

The reactors would be owned by a utility, and would require $500 million over five years, about 50 percent of the estimated cost to complete two designs and secure approval from the Nuclear Regulatory Commission, the New York Times reports.

The short-term reason behind the administration’s request is to help the U.S. Department of Energy meet federal goals to go green by reducing carbon dioxide emissions. All federal agencies are now required by an executive order to reduce their carbon footprint by 28 percent by 2020.

The long-term goal, however, is to create assembly-line production of small reactors, considerably reducing costs and giving federal officials a good solution to replace old, coal-fired power plants that won’t pass new federal emissions requirements.

The reactors would be built “almost entirely in a factory and trucked to a site like modular homes,” reporter Matthew Wald writes.

Some points about the reactors:

  • Construction costs, modular reactors: several hundred million to $2 billion
  • Construction costs, conventional reactors: up to $10 billion (for a reactor with 20 times the output of a modular version).
  • The federal facility of interest: Oak Ridge National Laboratory, in Tennessee.

The only hurdle, and it’s a major one, is that the design and approval process is prohibitively expensive. Quite simply, it’s too steep to iterate quickly when it’s unclear if there’s a market for the reactors anyway.

The federal government’s answer: pay half up front and sign a deal to buy power from it, thus guaranteeing revenue for the utility, and consequently making it easier for the utility to receive financing for the project.

The process starts with federal facilities: military bases, national laboratories, and so forth.

The manufacturers in the crosshairs are Babcock & WilcoxNuScaleWestinghouse and Holtec, which all have varying degrees of nuclear expertise, either from home power generation or through projects such as nuclear submarines.

Ultimately, this is another infrastructure story: Americans in the 1950s and 1960s bit the bullet to build out a national infrastructure (highways, power grid, etc.) — and now that it’s nearing retirement, we must rebuild it and then some.

Are modular reactors the answer? It remains to be seen, but there’s no denying that smaller reactors can be installed in more locations without requiring the relatively massive overhead of a conventional version.

Illustration: Babcock & Wilcox

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Andrew Nusca

About Andrew Nusca

Andrew Nusca is the editor of SmartPlanet.

Andrew Nusca

Andrew Nusca

Editor

Andrew Nusca is editor of SmartPlanet and an associate editor for ZDNet. Previously, he worked at Money, Men's Vogue and Popular Mechanics magazines. He holds degrees from the Columbia University Graduate School of Journalism and New York University. He based in New York but resides in Philadelphia.

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Andrew Nusca

Andrew Nusca
Andrew Nusca does not hold any investments in the companies he covers.
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0 Votes
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Solved or solvent?
Economics still point to wind, with other renewables such as solar thermal and PV as cheaper options that don't require so much federal subsidies or financial exposure for the utilities as much as nuclear.

Many folks think it's the safety issues that have stopped nuclear from developing, but it's really the scary bottom line numbers that face a utility considering constructing, operating, dealing with the waste of and decommissioning a nuclear power plant. Add these all up and you have some pretty pricey electricity that's above market rates and few investors willing to sign up despite the loan guarantees, the Price-Anderson act insurance waiver, etc.

Big time corporate socialism going on here. Don't know why more conservatives are not up in arms about this one, modular or not.
Posted by klassman6
15th Feb 2011
0 Votes
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We'll still have a spent fuel problem...
but using THORIUM could make all the difference.
Posted by jackbp73
15th Feb 2011
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RE: Nuclear, solved: small 'modular' reactors on an assembly line?
Could you simply bring the whole modular unit back to the manufactuing site to dispose of the sent rods?
The unit could also be the safe transoport method?

But looking at the math, at $2B per unit, lets build the big $10B, with 20X the output. The price per unit needs to be substantially below $500M or why waste the time and money indeveloping to get the same output /$.
Posted by CharlesG1970
15th Feb 2011
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RE: Nuclear, solved: small 'modular' reactors on an assembly line?
at a time when the nation is looking at cutting back on projects that directly affect people now, including such things as social security, it is clear to me that spending items like modular nuclear reactors and the planned NASA campus, to name a few, should be fielded by big business instead of big government.
Posted by freshairmedia
15th Feb 2011
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RE: Nuclear, solved: small 'modular' reactors on an assembly line?
Too many people today were born too late to remember Chernobyl or Three Mile Island. It's not a matter of if an accident happens (or the spent fuel makes it into the hands of the terrorists), it's when! No energy is worth the price we'll have to pay in the face of an accident or attack.

Moreover, I wonder if reactors made on the assembly line on Mondays will have problems as do autos made on the line on Mondays? The nuclear equivalent of a loose nut rattling in the door could spell disaster!

NOT IN MY BACKYARD!!!
Posted by omb00900@...
15th Feb 2011
0 Votes
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RE: Nuclear, solved: small 'modular' reactors on an assembly line?
The Navy does modular reactors with subs and ships, why not for commercial use? The old custom design for every reactor is not cost efficient.

Wind is too unreliable for dailly grid use and is HUGELY subsidized by the Federal government now. How do you store the energy for later use or for when the wind is not blowing.
Posted by ghirte@...
15th Feb 2011
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RE: Nuclear, solved: small 'modular' reactors on an assembly line?
What? A reactor that costs ONE FIFTH as much, but produces ONE TWENTIETH the energy of a tried-and-true design. You smokin' plutonium, man?
Posted by Stragger
15th Feb 2011
0 Votes
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Neat idea.
There have been long standing rumors of a small reactor being under the Pentagon for off the grid power.
Posted by Hates Idiots
15th Feb 2011
0 Votes
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RE: Nuclear, solved: small 'modular' reactors on an assembly line?
Nuclear is so 20th century. Solar - direct solar - is 21st century. Wind is inefficient capture of solar energy compared to photovoltaic but somewhat better than nuclear. In the long term, gas, readily available, relatively low cost and subject to very high efficiency is even better than nuclear.

Nuclear energy's financial, social and environmental costs are too high, waste too nasty and long-lasting and potential destructive downside too great to be any more widely used. Unless and until these issues are completely resolved, nuclear should not even be considered as a viable energy source.
Posted by DCGadfly
15th Feb 2011
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Solved? I don't think so.
I'd rather see one reactor than 20. It's easier to protect, easier to regulate, easier to staff properly, and did I mention cheaper (per MWH)?
Posted by bromikl
15th Feb 2011
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RE: Nuclear, solved: small 'modular' reactors on an assembly line?
I concur with the other posters that this is an idea not
worth the cost, in my view. Naval reactors get high power
out of a small package through the use of highly enriched
uranium, something that no one is going to release into the
commercial market. Better to go with the big, ordinary
reactors to get a stable, reliable design.
Posted by Starman35
15th Feb 2011
0 Votes
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SAMarshall
@klassman-
How can you talk about wind and solar and in the same sentence whine about "nuclear subsidies"? The only reason wind and solar are going on now is because of huge subsidies. The only scary bottom line numbers are the initial construction, and the only reason this is scary is because of all the law suits allowed during the construction phase instead of getting them out of the way before hand. If the lawsuit problem was adequately dealt with, investors wouldn?t be as shy. Operating/fuel costs are much less than the other major power producers. Even dealing with waste and decommissioning nuclear comes out looking good in the long run. And again you ignore ?corporate socialism? in all other forms of energy production except nuclear. The loan guarantees will end up making the government money, not taking it from them. No money has ever been paid out from the Price-Anderson Act, and it?s not a waiver as the industry still has to and does retain private insurance.

@omb00900-
Look, another fear monger. I know all about Chernobyl and TMI. Since the Chernobyl accident is impossible in the US due to totally different designs, please tell me what about TMI should scare us? TMI is basically the worst disaster that could happen at a US plant and NOTHING HAPPENED! The core melted and was contained as designed. Quit acting like a baby. And spent fuel in the hands of a terrorist? Please tell me how this would do them any good? It?s 1000 times easier and safer to get radioactive material from the medical community or food industry to use as a dirty bomb than spent fuel. And no, they can?t make a nuclear bomb out of spent fuel as I know you were going to suggest. Get educated instead of throwing out scare tactics.
Posted by mar01033@...
15th Feb 2011
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@DCGadfly-
So you have a problem with nuclear fuel that eventually (albeit almost never) goes away but you don?t have a problem with the permanent highly toxic chemicals from solar panel construction and disposal?
Posted by mar01033@...
15th Feb 2011
0 Votes
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Reactors in Nuclear Submarines
Why not scale a commerical reactor to the size and configuration used in Nuclear subs? It would seem to be more economical.
Posted by jtomlinson
15th Feb 2011
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RE: Nuclear, solved: small 'modular' reactors on an assembly line?
The problem has not been nor is it now, a need for government incentive (which is destined to push costs well beyond what private industry can accomplish). The problem is anti-nuclear factions, including misguided environmental groups, with heavy influence in government regulatory agencies, who's intent is to block nuclear power development in the US. There may be two, at least, motivating energies, One is a belief, by some, that nuclear power usage will poison the planet. The other is that providing abundant power to the masses reduces the government's ability to control.

Reduce the excessive regulatory stumbling blocks for the certification of reactors. Making it possible to actually get the permits and licenses to build and operate Nuclear power plants. Up until this point, government has been the problem, not the solution. This "innovation" of government directed assembly line production strikes me as smoke and mirrors to create the impression that this administration actually wants the masses to have the needed power to recreate economic growth.

It is more likely to be a false lead down a dead end tunnel that will further stifle nuclear power in the US. Government directed development intended to, in the long run, actually limit energy production in the US.
Posted by Bruce in San Jose
15th Feb 2011
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Sorry, it's nukes, or nothing. There is no choice!
For those of you who were not paying attention in basic science class, SOLAR and especially WIND power generation is ridiculously inefficient in any application.

And "ghirte@..." had it right: There is no government subsidy that makes something "worth it" unless you are the person getting free money from the rest of us taxpayers. Maybe someday we will have a better choice than nuclear fission (like nuclear fusion, geothermal, or new-technology solar collection devices) but for now, safe nuclear is the ONLY alternative. Unless, of course, you limit yourself to a tiny 2-bedroom house, a micro-car, no fresh meat or veggies, and never turn on that air conditioner. What?! You can't do that? Hmmmm.
Posted by Stragger
15th Feb 2011
0 Votes
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RE: Nuclear, solved: small 'modular' reactors on an assembly line?
OK, I'm not as smart as Some of the rest of you, so..the way I understand it, (if the radioactive part of this is left out of the question), the next real problem is dissipitation of heat produced. It's the reason they ended up mothballing the WHOOPS plant in Washington State. A rise of 1 degree in the river that would have been used for cooling, sunk it. (No. I don't know what that would have done to the Environment.) With the latest hysteria with heat in the world, how do we play that? No Fossil fuel? No CO2? As far as I'm concerned, spent fuel rods will have a purpose in the future. It's the way of man.
Posted by Solution1
15th Feb 2011
0 Votes
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RE: Nuclear, solved: small 'modular' reactors on an assembly line?
For a tenth the money they could validate Proton-Boron fusion technologies such as the Bussard Riggatron or various Dense Plasma Focus designs.

Proton-Boron fusion does not produce neutrons, does not radioactivate the reactor, and yields power radioelectrically (by direct, efficient utilization of alpha particle flux as electric current).

The reactors would consume very little cooling water per megawatt, their waste product would be Helium and their principal fuelstock would be Borax, of which the US is a leading exporter. Enough power to light the Eastern Seaboard could be produced by cooking down one shipping pallet of Borax per hour; most steel mills use more than this.

Dense Plasma Focus also has prospect of directly powering waterborne vessels, aircraft, railroad locomotives and freight trucks.

Contrast this with the initiative proposal of fielding ultimately hundreds if not thousands of modular lightwater fission reactors.

For starters, all lightwater fission reactors radioactivate in use, not only turning the entire reactor into radioisotopically contaminated nuclear waste (You could deliver them by truck on the freeway, but please don't return decommissioned units that way!) but limiting their safe operational lifetime to less than 60 years (the average coal power plant can run for 60 years plus).

They also each require several tons of ceramic actinide fuel every four years of operation, and consume this fuel incompletely and inefficiently.

Because the United States does not reprocess or for the most part transport spent actinide fuels, every new reactor site must include a designated graveyard to hold the spent fuel assemblies.

If a reactor is operated 30 years then decommissioned, the graveyard must accomodate eight changes of fuel plus the reactor assembly itself, typically as a sculpture garden of massive concrete casks surrounded by cyclone fencing. If we installed thousands of reactors we would soon have thousands of such casks.

Also the United States has not mined uranium since the 1970s, so this initiative goes against making the United States more self-sufficient in energy production. We presently fuel our reactors entirely with imported uranium, and expanding the installed base of fission reactors simply makes us bigger energy importers.

Reopening our domestic mines would take 15 years of planning and approvals and would involve finding a way to mine uranium without making thousands of Americans radioactive, like the old mines did.
Posted by John_Turner
15th Feb 2011
0 Votes
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RE: Nuclear, solved: small 'modular' reactors on an assembly line?
Forget freaky fission,

If they invested all the money and brain power in research on
fusion reactors, fusion would have been invented in a year or
less and the title would read instead: "New pocket sized fusion
reactors for your laptop!"... or has fusion already been invented?

Just do a little search and you might be surprised....

Keep in mind, that bankers don't want you to have "free" or
cheap energy, whether it comes from the sun, the air, or fusion,
because they want YOU and your country to be in debt for ever,
since they make NEW money out of thin air each time they lend
you and take in return your real assets.
Posted by Administrator.
15th Feb 2011
0 Votes
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RE: Nuclear, solved: small 'modular' reactors on an assembly line?
A little homework by the author would have revealed that G.E. has a modular reactor but it is only approved for shipping out of the country. Go figure all this but no one checked for modular reactors.
Posted by rb1956rb
15th Feb 2011
0 Votes
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RE: Nuclear, solved: small 'modular' reactors on an assembly line?
It certainly doesnt make any sense at all to develop small reactors that cost more per kWh delivered than big ones. But let's be honest, nobody knows the economics of these things until they are built and marketed. That was always the justification for subsidising wind power, etc. - to give those technologies a kick start and push them along the road to being competitive with coal, etc. It hasnt worked for them and I suspect never will.

I have to laugh at klassman6 (#1) who once again is back here advocating wind, etc., (all massively subsidised) but then suggests that nuclear power development shouldnt be (much too socialist an idea).

For some reason the words level , playing and field come unaccountably to mind. But perhaps we should not expect consistency from the pro-windmill lobby.

Anyway it is all hot air! Governments around the world are busy repositioning themselves for the inevitability of nuclear power and it is only a matter of time before it re-enters the world stage as the primary energy source of the future.

Just as (on a longer timescale probably) I predict governments will likewise reposition themselves well away from anthropogenic global warming as they watch the inflated and anti-scientific AGW rhetoric increasingly failing to engage with public perceptions.
Posted by cosserat@...
16th Feb 2011
0 Votes
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RE: Nuclear, solved: small 'modular' reactors on an assembly line?
The National Defense University has just published a new article on SMRs. This piece looks at the potential for small nuclear reactors to solve DOD?s dependence on fragile power grids and their potential for operational use in the field.

Here?s the link: http://www.ndu.edu/press/lib/pdf/StrForum/SF-262.pdf
Posted by NDU Energy and Environmental Security
16th Feb 2011
0 Votes
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RE: Nuclear, solved: small 'modular' reactors on an assembly line?
yes. Small reactors cost more per kwh but can be located near consumption centre and save on transmission cap ex as well as losses.
Posted by pksaha
16th Feb 2011
0 Votes
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RE: Nuclear, solved: small 'modular' reactors on an assembly line?
Re. #24 pksaha

But which cost outweighs which? Do you have estimates that you are hiding from us?
Posted by cosserat@...
16th Feb 2011
0 Votes
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On subsidies and corporate socialism
#12, #22,

It's funny how you think it's ridiculous to complain about nuclear subsidies when wind, solar and other renewables get HUGE subsidies, right?? It is unless you actually look at the numbers, something I really recommend folks start doing if they want to get past the "my opinion is better than your opinion" stage.

How much do you think nuclear power has received in subsidies? Do you trust John McCain? He says it's around 100 BILLION dollars back in 2008 when he broke ranks with the other republicans and said it was time to cut the cord to these corporats socialists:
http://www.grist.org/article/nuclear-pork-enough-is-enough/

Frankly, there is ample evidence to say that McCain was fairly significantly underestimating the amount of direct and indirect subsidies, and, guess what? All of the folks receiving the big subsidies were big multinationals--imagine that! Now you show me a source that shows how HUGE the wind and solar industry subsidies are compared to that, and we can talk. I'll be happy to provide you with some even more detailed numbers and estimates to back myself up even more, but I think it's time for folks to do some of their own homework. It's a really good habit to get into.

Don't get me wrong: you are entitled to believe any distortion you like, but please do it with the disclaimer that your opinion is purely subjective and that you have not troubled yourself enough to actually look into the numbers. That's how we can get past the soap boxing and name calling and actually help educate each other.
Posted by klassman6
16th Feb 2011
0 Votes
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RE: Nuclear, solved: small 'modular' reactors on an assembly line?
Those complaining about the subsidies for wind and solar just ignore the subsidies that fossil fuels and nuclear power already get which are far greater than the subsidies for renewable power. The nuclear industry couldn't exist at all without the government insuring them against nuclear accidents. No private insurer will touch that market.
Posted by riverat1
16th Feb 2011
0 Votes
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RE: Nuclear, solved: small 'modular' reactors on an assembly line?
Another solution from the administration without any relation to the problems, except to expand them.
Posted by DEfromDC
16th Feb 2011
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RE: Nuclear, solved: small 'modular' reactors on an assembly line?
Why not?

Just about every major vessel in the US Navy has a nuclear reactor. The Major State University Research Lab down the street also has a small nuclear reactor.
Posted by bb_apptix
17th Feb 2011
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RE: Nuclear, solved: small 'modular' reactors on an assembly line?
The whoops plants were not terminated because of a possible 1 degree rise of temp in the columbia river. Two were terminated because of major cost over runs beset by union strikes, design changes, poor management. At one time there were 9 Pu production reactors operating at Hanford without signicant change to the river.
Posted by edcougar
17th Feb 2011
0 Votes
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RE: Nuclear, solved: small 'modular' reactors on an assembly line?
The use of nuclear energy, should be a last alternative for energy. Because of the radioactive material it produces. The amount of HLW(high level waste) worldwide is currently increasing by about 12,000 metric tons every year, which is the equivalent to about 100 double-decker buses or a two-story structure with a footprint the size of a basketball court.[17] A 1000megawatts of electricity. nuclear power plant produces about 27 tonnes of spent nuclear fuel (unreprocessed) every year.[18](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioactive_waste)
the Department of Energy states there are "millions of gallons of radioactive waste" as well as "thousands of tons of spent nuclear fuel and material" and also "huge quantities of contaminated soil and water.
Certain radioactive elements (such as plutonium-239) in ?spent? fuel will remain hazardous to humans and other creatures for hundreds of thousands of years. Other radioisotopes remain hazardous for millions of years. Thus, these wastes must be shielded for centuries and isolated from the living environment for millennia
There was a time, when nuclear energy, was predicted to be clean and safe. With nuclear power plants, having fail safe systems. That was suppose to make it impossible to have an accident. Three mile island, proved they were all lies. And the disaster at the Chernobyl plant, is an on-going catastrophe. With no one knowing what the out come will be. Nuclear energy, may become the death of this planet, and its so sad. I really feel sorry for the children, who will have to face the problem, that this generation created.
Posted by blackjack861@...
17th Feb 2011
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@#26
#26,

You can call them subsidies all you want but that doesn't really give the picture. The fact is that the government has not given money to the nuclear industry. R&D money spent goes to national labs and universities, not utilities. And the only reason more money has been spent on nuclear R&D as opposed to renewable R&D is because the renewable craze is Johnny-come-lately while nuke research has been here for ~70 years.

Government disaster insurance? Come back to me and complain about that if/when it ever happens. The government has never and IMO will never pay out under the Price-Anderson Act and you don't have any proof to say otherwise.

Loan Gurantees? Give me a break. The government will make money off this program, not loose it. Get back to me on this one IF the government actually pays out ANY money on this. And even if they do the answer will still be, it's the governments fault for allowing lawsuits AFTER the permits are granted and building has begun. The loan gurantees are just the government paying back the industry for bad governmant practices that have cost the industry billions of dollars.

And if you add in the 30+ billion dollars that the nuke industry has paid to the government for fuel storage that never happened, I would say the government has come out WAY on top in the money game.
Posted by mar01033@...
18th Feb 2011
0 Votes
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RE: Nuclear, solved: small 'modular' reactors on an assembly line?
If uranium scares you, then check out Thorium reactors, which potentially offer small, transportable units that require very little shielding and can be designed to not produce weapons grade waste. Like it or not, fission fueled power is more than necessary to provide power to the growing demands of this planet, which will reduce fossil fuel demand! Solar and wind power, while clean, can only be effectively implemented in a small percentage of the world, and have enjoyed significant subsidies to come to fruition, further exacerbating the USA debt!

http://www.thorium.tv/en/thorium_reactor/thorium_reactor_1.php
Posted by cartee@...
18th Feb 2011
0 Votes
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Corporate socialism 202
mar,
Sure some went to universities, but most of the subsidies go to contractors who build the plant. This is an industry that simply wouldn't have ever developed without the federal government bankrolling every step of the way. Do you think the utilities would be looking to build 2 nukes in Georgia right not if the Obama administration hadn't given 8.3 billion dollars in loan guarantees? That money will be paying off the contractors who build the plant even if not a single kilowatt comes out of the power plants because the utilities can't sell it. I'd sure be interested to hear the details about how the feds will make money off that deal--I'm all ears.

And as far as the waste storage issue is concerned, all that money was spent and probably twice as much from the taxpayers on Yucca mountain waste respository, researching and developing a site that was so fraught with elephants in the room that finally nobody could ignore them all any more and the government walked away. The bottom line on waste storage is that there simply is no good solution to the problem, either for the fuel or for the hot power plants that have to be decomissioned. I don't blame the nuke industry; I blame the technology. I didn't invent the world we live in, but it's my responsibility to play by the rules or pay the consequences, of which there are plenty in this arena.

And most of the fossil fuel
Posted by klassman6
18th Feb 2011
0 Votes
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Waste
#31 @ Blackjack,

You like to embillish. All the spent fuel that has been created in the US since the beginning of nuclear power would only take up a football field, 15 feet tall. That's the whole fuel assembly, not just the fuel itself.

Also, you don't mention the fact that the spent fuel is the main source of radioactive waste from a nuclear power plant. Most of the "millions of gallons of radioactive waste" don't even come from the nuclear industry but from the medical, food, and weapons industry.

And you really want to talk about Chernobyl and Three Mile Island? Chernobyl was terrible, no question there. But you do realize that Chernobyl isn't a waste land right? It is actually thriving with animal and plant life. Humans don't want to live there but so what, the "Planet" is doing just fine there.

And the TMI lies... No one ever said that nuclear power plants are designed to never have an accident. They are designed so that if there is an accident, the public isn't affected. Guess what? TMI was pretty much the worst accident a US nuclear plant can have (melting the core) and there was NO hazzards to the public.

Maybe you should do more research?
Posted by mar01033@...
18th Feb 2011
0 Votes
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Socialism Cont.
You are wrong. Do you realize what a loan guarantee is? if you went to school then you probably do. Did you take out student loans? Did you know that student loans are guaranteed by the govt.? That doesn't mean the govt. gives you the money. That only means that if you default on your loans the govt. will pay back the lender.

It's the same for the nuclear guarantees. The government says to the industry, "OK, you have to go and get private financing. But if you happen to default on the loans, we'll pay the money back to the banks. And on top of that, we'll charge you huge fees to promise the money." So in essence, the government gets guaranteed money from the industry with a promise to pay if something happens and the utility goes bankrupt and can't pay back the loan itself. The government has never paid and will never pay contractors to build a nuke plant. Did you hear that?

And you are wrong about the waste money. The DOE states that only about $14 Billion has been spent on Yucca to date. That's still a $16+ Billion deficit to the industry.

Finally, we have a very good idea on what decommissioning takes as the US already does this, plans for it, and pays for it during the life of the plant. And the fact that you don't like Yucca doesn't mean it's not a safe place for a repository (notice it's a repository not a dump as a lot of people like to think).
Posted by mar01033@...
18th Feb 2011
0 Votes
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It quacks like a duck, it walks like a duck......
mar (#36)

Yes, I know exactly what a loan guarantee is. And yes; if the utility goes belly up, the feds (read: taxpayer) steps in and pays off the loan the utility took out from the banks to pay for the contractor to build the plant. And guess what the GAO and congressional budget office estimates the loan default rate has been for utilities building nukes? 10%? 20% Try 50%. Now 8.3 billion is a lot of money. But in 2008, the feds put out the carrot of loan guarantees to the nuclear power industry for 18.5 billion. Guess what is planned for next year? How about another 36 billion dollars?

And don't fool yourself about the loan guarantees--the utilities don't even get them unless they get their licenses to build, so don't think that the lion's share of the money doesn't go to the contractors. With the history of high defaults, no banker will ever finance another nuke unless the taxpayer will bail them out if something happens, so I have no idea why you don't consider this to be a direct subsidy.

And as far as waste is concerned, yes, there is an industry tax to the tune of 1 mil/kwh produced by nukes to pay into the nuclear waste fund, and it has accumulated 30 billion dollars and now that nothing is going on at Yucca mountain, it looks on face value that the industry may be out some big bucks. But is that the whole picture? The 100 billion dollars I was referring to is the Total System Lifetime cost of Yucca Mountain over the 100 year life of the waste repository. And the estimates that I'm familiar with say that the industry was to pay for around 73% of the lifetime costs, which means: taxpayer gets ANOTHER 27 billion tab from the nuclear power industry. A moot point, perhaps, since Yucca is unlikely to be built any time soon.

But alas, even this is not the whole story: didn't republicans submit a bill to return that $30 billion dollars to the industry if the feds pull out of Yucca Mountain? Didn't pass, but now that the political landscape has changed some, don't you think they'll try again? Particularly since the nuclear power industry has put in 63 million dollars in campaign contributions and 600 million dollars lobbying?

Finally, as if all of this weren't enough, what is exactly the Production Tax credit?? Doesn't it give 1.8 cents per kilowatt back to any nuke for the first 6000 megawatts? What is that if it is not yet another direct subsidy?
Posted by klassman6
18th Feb 2011
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RE: Nuclear, solved: small 'modular' reactors on an assembly line?
Why do we keep reinventing the wheel? Toshiba has already designed and built these exact reactors. They have been Department of Energy approval to bring them to the US. Good grief.
Posted by ixenophoni
19th Feb 2011
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RE: Nuclear, solved: small 'modular' reactors on an assembly line?
Australia is well described in the global uranium industry as the ?lucky country? with its vast low-cost uranium resources of 1,347,877 tons of known recoverable resources. This is in comparison to Kazakhstan and Canada, of which Australia has 1.4 times and 2.6 times the quantity of recoverable resources, respectively. (http://www.australianuranium.com.au)

However if things go well Australia may not have to go nuclear as we have some of the world's best hot rocks that are ideally suited for geothermal electrical energy projects (http://www.hotrockenergy.com), vast amounts of coal suitable for UCG - GTL (http://www.ucg-gtl.com) to provide liquid fuels, a rapidly expanding CSM sector and a huge amount of natural gas (http://www.australian-gas.com) as well as abundant, coal, solar, tidal and wind resources. Consequently Australia is well on the way to becoming energy independent and should not have to resort to nuclear power for several decades at least.

However Australia still has a part to play and this is becoming increasingly recognized..... At the moment Australia is just starting to question its restrictive position on Uranium mining and there is an emerging argument for Australia to become a "cradle to grave" uranium exporter where we mine, purify and manufacture fuel rods etc, export them to less energy rich nations and then take back the spent fuel for reprocessing or storage. Many favor the "cradle to grave" solution above simply being an exporter as it will provide Australia with massive income and at the same time satisfy our desire to be a good world citizen by virtue of establishing a distribution system that can be comprehensively managed and audited..
Posted by spartysls
19th Feb 2011
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OK...
Klass (#37)

Good, you understand the loan guarantees, or at least you pretend to. If the utility goes belly up the only money the govt. is on the hook for is the money directly paid to build the plant. In other words, you are not paying the contractors for not finishing, you are paying the banks and financial investors what they are out. I don?t get what you are trying to stir up with the contractors.

The reason the default rate has been so high in the past is because of the government laws governing the licensing/building of nuclear reactors. The government allows lawsuits to be filed AFTER the government has already issued the licenses. This means that even if the nuts don?t have a case they can effectively bankrupt the utility by bringing ridiculous lawsuits. This is totally contrary to logic. Give all the anti-nukers all the opportunity in the world to bring lawsuits up and then use that as a licensing basis, put don?t allow it after the government has given permission to build. At least then the industry stands a chance. This is the main reason why the loan guarantees are needed. It?s the government trying to make up for stupid policy.

And to the tax credit. This only applies to the first 6000 megawatt hours of a plant life, with a max of $125 million dollars. And the only reason the 1.8 cents per kilowatt-hour tax credit was introduced was to put nuclear power on equal footing with wind, solar, and biomass (due to their enormous direct subsidies). It?s right in the bill if you want to go read it.
Posted by mar01033@...
21st Feb 2011
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RE: Nuclear, solved: small 'modular' reactors on an assembly line?
Mar,
That is correct: you are only paying contractors for the work that they did as the utilities went belly up. And that's exactly what has happened, the worst of which was in Washington state, with the WPPS nuclear power fiasco, in which the utilities began with a plan to build 5 nukes and ended up cancellling 4 of them and defaulted on their loans, the biggest municipal bond default in history. Ratepayers in the Pacific Northwest are still paying off those debts. And was it lawsuits at the bottom of the problem there? Nope. It was cost overruns, construction delays, design errors and other issues that made the price skyrocket to the point of no return.

Cost overruns and delays have been the standard protocol for every nuke ever built in the US, beginning with the very first one in Shippingport, PA, which came online in 1957 at about double the projected price. How many lawsuits were involved in those price escalations? To blame the issue of high priced nukes on frivolous lawsuits is either ignorant or deliberately deceptive, so I'm not sure where you are coming from about that issue.

In October 2007, Moody's Investor Service put the installed kW price of nukes at an exhorbitant $5-6,000, and the reasons revolved around the excalating costs of copper, steel, concrete and not enough engineers to design them, and said nothing about frivolous lawsuits. To make the point even more clearly, South Korea and Japan's installed kW estimates for new nukes is around $4200, and I don't think frivolous lawsuits are undermining these projects.

And finally, if the 1.8 cents per kwh tax credit was designed to put nuclear power on equal footing with wind, solar and biomass, then the entire issue of wind, solar and biomass subsidies is a moot point, right?

Now if the feds would just get out of the role of using tax payer's dollars to underwrite risky loans, I predict the whole nuclear power industry would just up and disappear. Prove me wrong.
Posted by klassman6
21st Feb 2011
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Klass
Well it's all who you trust isn't it? You state that, "It was cost overruns, construction delays, design errors and other issues that made the price skyrocket to the point of no return." Yet you don't contradict the environmentalist lawsuit statement which was at least partly responsible for the cost overruns and construction delays.

Electric utilities are part of the most capital-intensive industry in the US. In 1979 the interest rates jumped and the interest rates for building plants skyrocketed to 17%. But even at 17% the utilities may have been able to wade through it. The killer blow was the environmental lawsuits. The increase in cost for the plants themselves is nothing compared to the interest on these loans over the longer periods of time needed to battle the lawsuits. Go to the Electric Power Research Institute (EPRI). Their studies show that between 1970 and 1985 the rise of construction costs was modest. What threw the $/kW through the roof was financing costs fueled by high interest rates, and project escalation fueled by lawsuits. Those two factors far outweigh the actual cost of building the plant.

The WPPSS fiasco was a direct result of increasing interest rates, lawsuits, and the cutting of their credit rating. The legal ?sabotage? was estimated to add 12 years to the construction time which then increased the estimate to $12.1 billion, $8 billion of which was interest. The same thing happened with Pilgrim-2 and many many other planned nuke plants. So yes, frivolous lawsuits are a big block to investors. Prove me wrong.

And yes the 1.8 cents MAY make the other renewable subsidies moot. That?s fine. The eia still says that nuclear is competitive with current pricing. So what?s the point?
Posted by mar01033@...
21st Feb 2011
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Whoops you did it again
You really ARE trying to revise history, aren't you? Who are you representing? Here's what the politically neutral, academically supported Washington state history website says about the whole issue:

"Several factors combined to ruin construction schedules and to drive costs to three and four times the original estimates. Inflation and design changes constantly plagued all the projects. Builders often got ahead of designers who modified their drawings to conform to what had been built. Safety changes imposed by the Nuclear Regulatory Commission increased costs too, but the biggest cause of delays and overruns was mismanagement of the process by the WPPSS. The directors and the managers of the system had no experience in nuclear engineering or in projects of this scale. System managers were unable to develop a unified and comprehensive means of choosing, directing, and supervising contractors. One contractor, already shown to be incompetent, was retained for more work. In a well-publicized example, a pipe hanger was built and rebuilt 17 times. Quality control inspectors complained of inadequate work that went unaddressed."

"The delays were not widely reported. At a WPPSS board meeting in 1973, Seattle City Light Superintendent Gordon Vickery (1920-1996) expressed surprise that the projects were a year behind schedule. According to the minutes, "Mr. Vickery expressed his opinion that the public should be told this, rather than keep saying we are on schedule and then come up short" (Chasan).

And it goes on. Feel free to read the entire article at HistoryLink.org, essay #5482. Seems that there were lawsuits, but you neglect to say that many of the lawsuits were outraged ratepayers who in small towns were being assessed as much as $12,000 per customer for this boondoggle.But blaming lawsuits for this disaster, frivolous or otherwise is historically inaccurate. Consider yourself proven wrong.

And the point about nuclear subsidies is that there is simply no truth to the outrageous claims that solar and wind are getting any kind of advantage in the form of subsidies over nuclear, and the same goes for fossil fuels and such projects as coal tar sands and the like. Since you agree, make sure that in the circles you run around in, be sure to correct anyone who says otherwise, OK? ;>)
Posted by klassman6
21st Feb 2011
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So...
You base your story off of one "historian" from Washington. Just
because the initial cost overruns and delays were largely due to
WPPSS incompetence doesn't mean that's what led to the
canceling and default. WPPSS still could have overcome the
blunders they had made if it weren't for the other factors involved
including the Kill-A-Watt program (which mindset we are now
paying for as China will soon overtake us in just about
everything), and as a national voice, Time, states,

"Like all nuclear plants, the Whoops projects faced costly
Government regulation in the wake of rising public concern
about the safety of reactors and the growing strength of the
antinuke movement. By 1982 the total projected price of the five
plants had exploded from $4.1 billion to $23.8 billion."

Again, environmental activists were huge in the downfall of many
nuke projects around the country. What you say is true, but it is
hardly the entire picture.

Also, most of the circles I run around in don't decry the subsidies
given to wind and solar as nuclear has done just fine without
them so far. They only reason they are brought into the
conversation is when people like yourself who decry nuclear
subsidies (that have only recently come into effect and haven't
even paid out yet) whine about any alleged nuclear subsidy.
While it's true that solar and wind would not be viable right now
without subsidies, we nukers are generally quiet on the issue as
we know we can still hold our own.
Posted by mar01033@...
21st Feb 2011
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Whoops: caught cherry picking?
No, I don't base my story off of one "historian" from Washington. HistoryLink is a well respected, scholar-reviewed site that has every article thoroughly vetted and includes sources and citations. Dare we say the same about Time magazine?

I decided to go to your article anyway, and noticed the following immediately preceding your cherry-picked excerpt:

"Whoops was ill prepared to build one nuclear plant, much less five. Many of the 23 members of the agency's board were farmers and small businessmen who were neophytes in the nuclear business. Whoops used three different designs for the five projects, which suffered from repeated delays and huge cost overruns."

And then immediately after your picked cherry:

"Meanwhile, the forecasts of power shortages proved to be wildly wrong. Conservation measures spurred by the 1973 and 1979 surges in oil prices reduced demand for electricity. So did a series of economic recessions that hit the Northwest particularly hard....No hard evidence has yet surfaced that Whoops' board members and managers over the years are guilty of deliberate fraud or corruption. But they are collectively to blame for bad judgment and bureaucratic bungling on an unprecedented, almost unimaginable, scale. Concludes Washington Governor John Spellman: "Good-faith people made poor decisions." Those decisions were accepted by the merchants of Wall Street, who gladly peddled more and more Whoops paper."

Hmmmm....just like your blaming frivolous lawsuits for the demise of nukes instead of the collectively much larger issues, I gotta wonder about your motivations. Seems less and less like ignorance to me.

But I'll take the high road here. The first nuke in 1957 was 100% over budget, with not an inkling of an antinuclear lawsuit, and the march down nuclear alley has averaged 300% over budget for every nuclear power plant ever made. You continue to ignore the fact that nuclear power plants are fraught with complications as an inherent part of the road from the drawing board to the kilowatt, and to say that you can build one without the inevitable cost overruns, delays and complications is more than ignoring reality.

Oh, I almost forgot: calling the Kill-o-watt program a bad idea is itself a much worse idea. Promoting energy efficiency and decreasing waste is by far the best investment our country can make, with the most return on the invested dollar, will create the most jobs, will improve our residential and commercial building stock, and will alleviate the need to build needless centralized brittle power sources like big nukes. Energy production is undergoing a revolution not unlike the transition from mainframe computers to microprocessors. Small desktop microprocessors were completely scoffed at by the mainframe computer folks, until they were eventually overwhelmed by the technologies that left them obsolete.

Similarly, just exactly how many nuclear power plants were built in the US last year? The last decade? The last three decades? And how much new installed wind power was installed last year? The next 10 years? The next 30?
Posted by klassman6
21st Feb 2011
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No I didn't Cherry Pick
I already conceded the fact that industry delays were a problem.
You just don't listen. I picked out the facts you are still missing.
You can go back to your history article (which is conveniently
written by those that were probably directly effected so of course
they are 100% objective). But even that article gives a slight
glimpse of what I am talking about. You did also read in one of
the articles that the environmentalists filed a lawsuit that was
projected to take at least 5 years right? Of course they pulled the
suit when they found out they had enough environmentalists on
the formed panel to influence shutting the thing down.

And you keep ignoring my conceding cost overruns and delays. I
just submit they aren't THE reason for abandonment and that
they can, and have, been over come. (You do realize there are
104 operating nuke plants that are very successful right?) The
NRC didn't change the licensing laws to now not allow public
intervention after the grant of the license because it wasn't a
problem. You are missing the forest for the trees. Enjoy your time
here. I'll go continue to ensure these plants are built. And you
can have the last word as I'm sure you need it.
Posted by mar01033@...
23rd Feb 2011
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RE: Nuclear, solved: small 'modular' reactors on an assembly line?
What I was interpreting from your comments was that you were implying that frivolous lawsuits were the driving force behind the spiralling cost of nuclear power plant construction. You were the one who claimed in #39 that it was lawsuits that bankrupted utilities, and in #41 that it was environmental lawsuits that dealt a "killer blow" to the utilities, not cost overruns and mismanagement. If you were not inplying that and agree with me that while frivolous lawsuits were part of the mix, they aren't the driving force behind the spiralling costs, then I certainly stand corrected and we can agree on the point that those nukes went under due primarily to mismanagement, spiralling costs that were connected to bait-and-switch engineering and other delays that were only peripherally affected by "frivolous lawsuits."

But you are still seem confused about the issue, since you turn around and say that cost overruns and delays weren't THE reason for abandonment, and then oddly use the functional nuclear power plants as proof of your point. The issue is not the functioning power plants, it's the 50% defaulted loans from utilities that gave up the ghost somewhere along the way. Those are the plants were mismanagement, cost overruns and delays played the major roles.

By the way, I'm happy to have had a civil discussion on SmartPlanet with you, May our respectful give and take conversation become the norm in this comments section--perhaps there's hope for this kind of format yet!
Posted by klassman6
23rd Feb 2011
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