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The new insurance plan is to cut off doctors

By | August 10, 2010, 5:14 AM PDT

Before health reform passed insurance companies had an easy way to game the system.

They managed risks.

If you were sick, or likely to become sick, you were a risk not worth taking. That’s what the whole “pre-existing conditions” debate was about, limiting risks by only insuring those least likely to have claims.

As business policy it’s hard to argue with. It’s what carriers do in every other field. If you have a lot of car accidents you pay more. Same if your contracting company has a lot of accidents. The same thing is true in life insurance, as you age.

Insurance companies aren’t banks. They’re bookies.

But health insurers can’t play that game any more. In exchange for forcing consumers to buy insurance, they can no longer refuse coverage to anyone. Their ability to manage risks on the income side is limited.

It is now clear how they plan to handle this. By cutting off doctors.

The most efficient medical plans in America have long been those offered by companies like Kaiser and Intermountain which also provide care, and which thus have an incentive to keep the costs of care low, and the power to enforce the policy.

So, in an effort to emulate such plans, UnitedHealth has been buying IT companies like mad.

Through its Ingenix subsidiary it has made a half-dozen acquisitions in the last 18 months, building a suite of systems that can monitor what doctors charge, and pushing their own health record system on community clinics, many of whom already charge low rates.

They have also been rolling out new plans which don’t let patients go out-of-network, and limit the networks to those practices whose costs they consider reasonable.

The American Medical Association is angry over this. They call it “physician profiling.” Knowing they are on shaky political ground, they insist they’re not against the idea of cost control. They just don’t like how the insurers are doing it.

Systems like the Mayo Clinic have proven there need not be a conflict between excellence and cost. But that’s not why insurers are turning to cutting off doctors. They just want to manage risk, and if they can’t manage it on the revenue side they will manage it on the cost side.

It’s a long-term trend given new impetus by health reform, for which cost-cutting is an important feature.

The insurers’ actions may even have a political benefit. Over the last few years many doctors and hospitals have cut themselves off from Medicare and Medicaid, insisting their reimbursement rates are too low. As insurance companies cut-off high-cost clinics and hospitals from their networks, some will have to rethink that position or go out of business.

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Dana Blankenhorn

About Dana Blankenhorn

Dana Blankenhorn was a contributing editor for SmartPlanet from 2009 to 2010.

Dana Blankenhorn

Dana Blankenhorn

Contributing Editor, Healthcare

Dana Blankenhorn has written for the Chicago Tribune, Advertising Age's "NetMarketing" supplement and founded the Interactive Age Daily for CMP Media. He holds degrees from Rice and Northwestern universities. He is based in Atlanta.

Follow him on Twitter.

Dana Blankenhorn

Dana Blankenhorn

Dana Blankenhorn has been a technology reporter since 1982, a business reporter since 1978, and a writer for as long as he can remember. His Schwab IRA has a few tech stocks in it, most notably some Intel and Applied Materials bought over 10 years ago. But the vast majority of his tiny fortune (emphasis on the word tiny) is invested in mutual funds. He presently writes for no one else but ZDNet, SmartPlanet and himself. But if you've got an opportunity let him know. If he takes the gig he"ll first add it to this disclosure page.

He writes for SmartPlanet and is not an employee of CBS.

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0 Votes
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RE: The new insurance plan is to cut off doctors
Another benefit of Democare. What will the demorats do when there is an even greater shortage of doctors. Create Indentured Servitude for doctors?

Free Enterprise is the ONLY way to go. Government controlled anything is wasteful, over-reaching, and has lots of bad consequences.

And just because someone has insurance is no guarantee they will be healthy, or free from sickness, or not die, or not have an accident.

It is up to the individual to live their life, not the government or any group dictating their health choices, or what they spend their money on.

Unfortunately, some people are afraid of having responsibility for their actions. Those people are to be pitied AND laughed at.
Posted by Albee_Freeoneday
10th Aug 2010
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Mayo clinic? Excellence?!
Time for a reality check!
Posted by Gaius_Maximus
10th Aug 2010
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RE: The new insurance plan is to cut off doctors
Albee_Freeoneday -

So neither you nor anyone close to you has ever been seriously ill, I suppose.

And you're wishing the banking system crisis onto health care.

Maybe you need a case of shingles.
Posted by ibap
10th Aug 2010
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RE: The new insurance plan is to cut off doctors
does anyone see the oxymoron here? Health care should not be controlled by a for profit insurance industry. As long as they can find a way6 to make a buck, WE will suffer for it!
Posted by winddrift03
10th Aug 2010
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To ibap
ibap

"So neither you nor anyone close to you has ever been seriously ill, I suppose."

Are you one of those who does not believe in personal responsibility?
Or perhaps you are one of those slugs who wants everyone else to pay their way?
Or are you one of those ill informed people who believe that having insurance makes you healthier.
If you are the later, then by all means... reach into your own pocket.. go out and buy yourself health insurance instead of that big screen tv, or game machine, or vacation, or whatever else you choose to spend your money on.


"And you're wishing the banking system crisis onto health care."

You are putting words in my mouth, and putting words into someone else's mouth is not sanitary. Even if someone else is paying for your health insurance.

"Maybe you need a case of shingles."

No I don't.

And from your attack, I am willing to guess you are one of those to be laughed at who refuse to accept personal responsibility for their actions. I don't know for sure, I'm just postulating based on your attack.

Love,
Albee happy
Posted by Albee_Freeoneday
10th Aug 2010
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RE: The new insurance plan is to cut off doctors
Albee_Freeoneday - Yes, free enterprise is what it's all about. However when free enterprise gets too greedy and we have things like Enron, the Gulf oil spill, the market collapse and recession, that's when government steps in and we get all of those new regulations. Also free enterprise only works when there is a profit. Our interstate highway system, city parks (Useful for tea party meetings), social security, medicare, medicaid are examples of items that are not profitable for the free market and therefore if we want them, then it becomes the governments job. Try to find a way to provide good medical care for someone that is disabled and (pitiful) that is profitable. So think about this as you drive on the federal highway system to your tea-party meeting taking place in a public park so that you can protest the government that gives you such items, while you pity and laugh at those less fortunate then you.
Posted by ked@...
10th Aug 2010
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RE: The new insurance plan is to cut off doctors
Anyone in the medical field that opposed the public option will now get their due! Who could ever think that depending on corporations for critical services would be superior to depending on not for profit/government agencies.

We cannot trust corporate America with our health. The only thing worse than a government bureaucracy is a corporate bureaucracy. The government inevitably answers to its people, the corporation only ever to itself.
Posted by omb00900@...
10th Aug 2010
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RE: The new insurance plan is to cut off doctors
albee_freeoneday
the day for individualism has long passed, along with paying doctors with chickens or produce. you are living in a past . the one you believe in probably never did occur.
yes self reliance did exist, but for the very few. most people , even in the frontiers depended on one another in good times and bad.
but albee you do not grow your own food, nor raise your own stock. have you built your own computer and wired your own internet. your very life depends on thousands of people doing their jobs as do many depend on you doing yours , whatever it is.
this ridiculous idea that you can take care of yourself is just plain stupid. it isn't happening , nor is it going to in future and it certainly did not exist in the past. even the old mountain men depended on others to make the things they absolutely needed in their long times alone while hunting and trapping. someone else made their guns, their powder, their bullets , their traps and some of the food they needed. ever tried to grow coffee in the western mountains albee?

it is amazing that peopl who propose that they are educated often believe the most bizarre things and have spome romantic idea of what it was like in the past. albee get a life!
Posted by stilt21
10th Aug 2010
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Unintended consequences
The health care laws are generating as many unintended consequences as the finacial reform has; the problem is not because of laws or regulation it is because corporations a geared to make profits and will offload costs as much as possible to maintain profits. Private industry keeps coming up with new ways to make more profit by adding fees or rules that are pushing the boundaries of legality with the government several steps behind.
Posted by sboverie
10th Aug 2010
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RE: The new insurance plan is to cut off doctors
What Albee and other "free enterprise" aficionados refuse to admit is: the whole insurance model is inappropriate for financing a medical system in the first place. We got saddled with this inappropriate model largely because of a historical accident, that companies hiring during WWII could not compete on the basis of salary, so they competed on the basis of health care benefits instead. And even then, the Kaiser system offered one of the best alternatives. Back then, it was a real HMO, not using health insurance at all.
Posted by mejohnsn
10th Aug 2010
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RE: The new insurance plan is to cut off doctors
ked

social security is broke
medicare, medicaid are going broke

Or did you fail to notice that. It's been all over the news lately. Though I don't know of it has been on MSNBC, and CNN. Though I think CNN Money had a story on it.

"social security, medicare, medicaid are examples of items that are not profitable for the free market and therefore if we want them, then it becomes the governments job"
And if you want them, then pay for them yourself. It is wrong morally to steal or coerce private property from someone and give it to someone else. If it is unaffordable, then though... life is unfair. Actually... I take that back... life is very fair.

"Try to find a way to provide good medical care for someone that is disabled and (pitiful) that is profitable."
I thought that is what charity is for... or was I mistaken.
If I, me, myself... personally choose to give my money to someone or some cause that is fine. What is wrong is when a bunch of people gang up and forcibly take my property and give it to someone else.

The railroads were built using private enterprise. Then government got involved AFTER they were built and started creating regulations taking the profit out of it. And we end up with a government subsidized train system called Amtrak.

"while you pity and laugh at those less fortunate then you."
I laugh at those who refuse to take personal responsibility for their actions. Are you one of those?
If so I can understand your anger. If not, I guess it must be the words of truth hitting home that set you off.

Come on admit it now... you know I'm right.

omb00900
"We cannot trust corporate America with our health"
I agree with you 100% on this part. It is up to each of us to take our own personal responsibility for our health.
Posted by Albee_Freeoneday
10th Aug 2010
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stilt21
stilt21
"the day for individualism has long passed,"
Oh, so I guess we do not need to be responsible for ourselves? I suppose the government did a great job at New Orleans after hurricane Katrina, and after the recent oil spill, and the help we supposedly gave to Haiti, and... well, you get the picture.

Are you one who wants to rely on the whims of others for your health? Go ahead, eat that donut, then blame Dunkin Donuts for your being obese. Eat those 10 Big Macs, then blame McDonalds for making food that tastes too good.

It's really easy to blame someone else, no matter how ridiculous the reason for the blame.
Less painful than looking in the mirror and saying to yourself "Yeah, I goofed. It's my fault."

"but albee you do not grow your own food, nor raise your own stock. have you built your own computer and wired your own internet. your very life depends on thousands of people doing their jobs as do many depend on you doing yours"
No, I work for my money. And I spend my money buying those things.
Are you waiting for gubermint to buy them for you?

"even the old mountain men depended on others to make the things they absolutely needed in their long times alone while hunting and trapping."
And they knew full well the risks they were taking. Fact is they got up off their keesters and did something. And took personal responsibility for their actions. They did not expect someone else to be responsible for them.
They did not want to BURDEN other people with that.
Posted by Albee_Freeoneday
10th Aug 2010
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mejohnsn
mejohnsn

"What Albee and other "free enterprise" aficionados refuse to admit is: the whole insurance model is inappropriate for financing a medical system in the first place. We got saddled with this inappropriate model largely because of a historical accident, that companies hiring during WWII could not compete on the basis of salary, so they competed on the basis of health care benefits instead."
Capitalism at work at it's finest. Find a way to compete for the best, and do it.

" The government inevitably answers to its people, the corporation only ever to itself."
No the Corporation answers to it's owners. That would be the stock holders.
Posted by Albee_Freeoneday
10th Aug 2010
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No wrong it answers to the Directors
Corporations answer to the Board of Directors the stock owners have almost no say whatsoever unless you are a major shareholder with the power to say who sits on the board.
Posted by Altotus
10th Aug 2010
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@Stilt21-Good Points
I agree with what you said about the illusion being self reliant in these complex times. It is one thing to not trust the government, but it is another to not trust the government and run for office. Congress seems to have a lot of members who ran on the idea that government is the problem so they made it so.

The current meme seems to be that govenment is superficial and that all the functions can be accomplished by private industry. Fire departments are a good example of why private fire departments failed, if your house was on fire and you paid for fire protection from company A but company B shows up and demands money before putting out the fire- even to the point of preventing company A from putting out the fire.

Government funded fire departments will put out fires to protect everyone in the city, a privately funded fire department will limit its protection only to those who pay or can pay on the spot and not prevent the fires from spreading to other buildings.
Posted by sboverie
10th Aug 2010
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Albee_Freeoneday
Hate to break this to you, but this IS the free enterprise solution.
Sure, health reform creates incentives for this among insurers, but
incentives are a product of our free enterprise system.
Posted by DanaBlankenhorn
10th Aug 2010
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RE: The new insurance plan is to cut off doctors
ked@ the orignal road system in the eastern portion of the USA was built by PRIVATE companies who charged a toll to users of the system - just like the railroads chared users of the iron rails - did the government start building all those railroads to help people get around and goods? No, private companies did. The state and local governments took over the roads and bridges when they figured out they could tax everyone and profit within the Government via taking ownership of the road and bridge system (The Brooklyn Bridge was built with private money and charged a toll to use in the beginning) as a way of controlling goods and services and indirectly people who use them.

The Federal government only started taking over when the military found out they could not move trooops around using the new vehicles since the roads were so poor - almost every road built initially was done for military reasons - not for the direct good of the people.

Our Interstates were built because of the "National Defense Highway Authorization Act" - after Eisenhower and commanders showed how useful the Autobahn was in moving mechanized troops around in Germany was.

sboverie@... very true. See the movie "Gangs of New York" where they show that. That system was adopted from England where they also had the same pay for fire protection system.

Our initial phone systems also had multiple carriers and multiple lines going all over to busibness too - and it was a mess. The main point is that PRIVATE companies all started these long before government did - they never inovated and established anything till long after private for profit companies did. The government only took over when the number of people being affected complained about the private companies and the government solution has always been to wipe out the private companies and impose a general tax on everyone to provide service to everyone. And then of course it lowers the ability to complain since you now have no power of $ to influence the business model at all - you cannot ever effectively fight mass taxation with just a few people who complain. 40,000 complainers out of 100,000 people t can always be ignored.
Posted by TAPhilo
10th Aug 2010
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RE: The new insurance plan is to cut off doctors
Spoke with three more docs last week that are on the way out. All in their early 50's. The families are worried, hard to believe a man and two women with all that education is going to chuck it over the lack of payments. And they are serioius.
Posted by IMWeira
10th Aug 2010
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RE: The new insurance plan is to cut off doctors
@albee_freeoneday

Keep on believing that you can control your own well-being if you want to. Let me tell you how well our current health care system has rewarded me.

13 years ago I ruptured a disc in my neck. My BlueCross insurance covered the surgery. After the surgery, I had a myelogram that showed I had Degenerative Disc Disease - with 4 more discs in seriously bad shape.

What was BlueCross's reaction? They raised my insurance rate to over $500 a month (from $145) and the first time I was a DAY late on the outrageous payment they cancelled me.

Now, I am completely uninsurable at ANY cost. Of course, you will say that I should have made my payment on time, but at the time it was all I could do to pay the rest of my bills after being out of work for 3 months due to the operation. Nothing I could do about it.

Now, I need a knee replacement and both shoulders replaced on top of having a bad spine. Guess what? I don't have a couple of hundred thou to throw around to have the operations, because I can't do any substantial work!

Lo and behold, someone got off their ass and pushed for a health care bill that will, in a couple of years, FORCE the insurance companies to accept and cover me. That is all well and good for me, but that is exactly what the insurance companies are freaking out over now, and scrambling to come up with a way to control costs - since they can't refuse me any more.

Do you think I am a special case or something? Not a chance. There are thousands of people in the same boat as I am, and to listen to someone like you spout your crap makes me want to puke. I don't wish a case of the shingles on you, I want you to get something disabling so the insurance company will drop you like a hot potato, and then you can come back and give us your opinion on the current state of healthcare. Oh, be sure and get whatever disease it is quick, in a couple of years they won't be able to drop you!

Buzz off, pal.
Posted by babyboomer57
10th Aug 2010
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RE: The new insurance plan is to cut off doctors
"does anyone see the oxymoron here? Health care should not be controlled by a for profit insurance industry. As long as they can find a way6 to make a buck, WE will suffer for it!"

Ah, I laugh at that idea. Actually you should want a for-profit industry to run your health care. If they can do it for less and make a profit, then what happens? They take market share and all the insurance providers must compete for your business. As costs have gone up, here's a few things we often forget to include in our calculations:

1. Many governments mandate and control prescription drug costs. Would our costs be less here in America if they weren't artificially controlled elsewhere? We assume that out there is the correct prices but neglect that it isn't all the free market we assume it to be. Many countries dictate the prices.

2. Do you want your doctor paid what the government says they are worth? Or do you want them to get paid what the market says what they are worth? Hint: government may be cheaper, but in the end will you get what you pay for? Cheaper doctor too. Are there people in other countries that would have made brilliant doctors but given the freedom choose other careers because a doctor is poor, poor, poor. Altruism is great, but will you get all the quality doctors you need to fill the demand if only the altruistic need apply? And many of us who would be willing to be poor doctors would also make poor quality doctors. You don't want me being your doctor. Maybe replace your hard drive in the computer but nowhere near diagnosing your heart. I can hardly stand the sight of blood....

3. There are already is government regulations that we were told would limit the costs. Instead, costs have gone up, up, up. If that was lack of enforcement, a new law will not fix a lack of enforcement problem but rather create more that won't work. But some of the costs are actually because of regulation already existing so now you want more?

4. Here's a clue that should waken some of you. If the big insurance companies are for the legislation while the small ones are against, this should have been your first warning sign. In other words, the big ones believed they could survive and the little ones did not. Were the big companies being altruistic, or were they interested in their bottom line and grabbing more market share.

5. Project into the future. Don't consider just what this does or does not do. Consider what it can or cannot do. It was projecting into the future that I personally thought the public option would return. Not because I thought it was the right thing but because I projected that this plan would lead to it unless we changed our way of thinking. I just didn't expect politicians to start trying to put it back in so soon....
Posted by dedrizen
10th Aug 2010
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IMWeira
I wrote about the primary care shortage a few days ago. It is
serious, and exacerbated by doctors leaving the profession.

I don't think we can meet that shortage with everyone seeing an
internist each time they feel faint or have a fever. The knowledge
can be distributed, so can the responsibility.

We actually have an excess of specialists, a product of a
generation spent creating market incentives with no budgets and
no priorities, a system that encouraged excess.

Changing that -- no matter how it's done, no matter by whom --
was going to be wrenching. Babyboomer57 offers one
perspective on that from the buyer's side, which insurers have
been pressing hard for years. The new health reform act does
press sellers, and some may well opt out.

But at some point a market must and will be made. Every one of
our economic competitors manage this. There's nothing
especially wrong with America that Americans can't fix.

The only thing wrong with Americans right now is this attitude of
"no we can't." We can. We always have before. We can and we
will.
Posted by DanaBlankenhorn
10th Aug 2010
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dedrizen
Competition is a two-way street. We don't just need competition
between private providers who have little incentive to control
costs. We also need competition from players who do have that
incentive.

Decades ago that means charity hospitals, religious-based
institutions, institutions launched as foundations with motives
beyond profit.

Those remain. But someone else needs to have their thumb on
the scale, in the name of the buyers, so that our current 17% of
GDP spent in this area comes closer to world averages.

The health reform that passed created market incentives for the
private market to put its thumb on the scale, and this post
illustrates one way that is being done. But many also think
government itself should have been more involved, that citizens
should have had the power to buy into a government-run health
plan like Medicare, if they chose.

For now that argument is over. What we have is what we have.
And many of my stories here are about how companies are trying
to make it work.

Thanks for being part of the thread.
Posted by DanaBlankenhorn
10th Aug 2010
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RE: The new insurance plan is to cut off doctors
Dana,

"Hate to break this to you, but this IS the free enterprise solution.
Sure, health reform creates incentives for this among insurers, but
incentives are a product of our free enterprise system"
I have no argument there. My point is that people need to be responsible for themselves.
If they want health insurance , they can buy health insurance... instead of a big screen TV, or dinner out at restaurants, or having lots of children they can't afford, or buying a new car, or living in a big house, or maybe working two jobs. It is morally wrong to take property belonging to someone else through force or coercion and give that property to someone else. That would be called re-distribution. Stealing from someone and giving it to someone else.

If you think it is OK because the majority demand it, then think again.

babyboomer57
"Nothing I could do about it."
Sell your house, or second car. Didn't you think ahead and have some savings, or were you living paycheck to paycheck.

All actions and decisions have consequences.

"to listen to someone like you spout your crap makes me want to puke."
Then you will probably expect someone else to clean up that mess.

"I don't wish a case of the shingles on you, I want you to get something disabling so the insurance company will drop you like a hot potato"
If wishes were horses then beggars would ride.

Boy, oh boy all this hate and vitriol. Probably your anger is what caused you to rupture your discs and give you a painful back in the first place.

But you my friend are typical.
"I'm suffering, so I want you to suffer." You only want to bring people down to your level, rather than looking up and looking at the positive side. It's really easy to feel sorry for yourself. It's really easy to complain. But where does that get you?

I'll tell you where it gets you. It gets you to the point of wishing harm on others. It turns you into a bitter old man. That's where it gets you.

"Buzz off, pal."
I'm not your pal. I wouldn't want to be with your attitude. And if my thoughts offended you... too bad. Time to look at yourself in the mirror and man up.

I will say it again. Anyone who believes that others should be made to pay for them is a thief! Plain and simple.

Anyone who thinks that they are not responsible for their choices and behavior deserves to be laughed at and I will add mocked.
Posted by Albee_Freeoneday
10th Aug 2010
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RE: The new insurance plan is to cut off doctors
albee
it is difficult to argue with someone who has a view of the world in which he lives that is far from reality.
you are not alone in this world and were you to try to act as if you could manage without beig part of a large group is , well the psychiatric name for it is 'nutty'.
there is no way you could survive without the rest of us, nor could we survive alone. that is just a romantic ideal that never really existed. you missed the point of even the lonely mountain man surviving alone. they did not, if they went out without the tools that society could provide to them, they would have died quickly. even the indians of the time, who might have gone along without what the caucasion society could offer did not live alone but with his tribe, all supporting one another to provide the food and tools without which they would have died.
face it albee, you are trying to be an anachronism that never really existed. you are just fooling yourself. as noted earlier albee get a life, a real one.
Posted by stilt21
10th Aug 2010
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Answer the Question... Please
"I wrote about the primary care shortage a few days ago. It is
serious, and exacerbated by doctors leaving the profession."

And why are they leaving?

"someone else needs to have their thumb on
the scale, in the name of the buyers, so that our current 17% of
GDP spent in this area comes closer to world averages. "
Would that be from the same theory that throwing money at schools creates smarter better educated students?

"The health reform that passed created market incentives for the
private market to put its thumb on the scale"
If you really want to make health insurance affordable, then:

1. Put a limit on how much the lawyers make when they sue. Not what the patients get, but the lawyers. Right now it's a lottery. It also causes numerous un-needed tests so the hospital and doctor have their rear ends covered.

Are there bad doctors. Yes. And they deserve to be punished, tossed out of the profession, and not permitted to work in health or medicine.

2. Allow people to buy insurance across state lines. OS the can buy wherever and from whoever is the cheapest.

3. Stop mandating insurance has to cover this and that and the other thing.

4. People should be taught economics in school. Taught business principles about profit and loss, so they understand. Then with that knowledge, they can make better decisions. Like say maybe they want to pay for doctor visits out of their pocket, and only use health insurance for a catastrophe. High deductible means lower premium.

They would also learn to save money.

I am still waiting for an answer to my question. and so far no one can give one. All they seem to do is launch personal attacks.

So those of you with sob story's and those launching personal attacks, first answer this question
What will the demorats do when there is an even greater shortage of doctors?
The demorats are the ones that voted for this mess and passed it. So it IS Democare.

I'm waiting for an answer. Anyone?
What will the demorats do when there is an even greater shortage of doctors?
Posted by Albee_Freeoneday
10th Aug 2010
0 Votes
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stilt21
stilt21

When will you leave your parents home?

"you are not alone in this world and were you to try to act as if you could manage without beig part of a large group is"
1. Use spell check. It's really easy to do (beig)
2. I never said or implied I can manage everything without being part of a large group of people.
3. I did say that people need to be responsible for themselves. Their actions have real consequences. But maybe because you are living under your parents roof, and someone else is paying your bills you don't understand that yet.


"you missed the point of even the lonely mountain man surviving alone. they did not, if they went out without the tools that society could provide to them"
No I got the point exactly. They bought what they felt they needed, and took personal responsibility for their actions they did not expect the government to make things "safe" for them. They did not expect the government to pay for their way. They did not expect the government to do anything for them. Yes, they did BUY the things they needed WITH THEIR OWN MONEY, rather than demand someone else pay their way. SO they were part of society. And they interacted with other people. Sorry for you if you don't understand that.

"all supporting one another to provide the food and tools without which they would have died."
Glad you brought up Native Americans. If someone was as slothful as the people who expect society to do everything for them, they would have been drummed out of the tribe. They would have been banished. Not coddled, and expect the Tribal Elders to steal from all the other members of the tribe that were contributing to give to the slothful, lazy person.

"you are trying to be an anachronism that never really existed."
You are again putting words in my mouth. And you are either blind, or stupid, or so caught up in your rage that you fail to actually read and think about what I said.

And will you please rather than attacking give a thoughtful answer to this question.

What will the demorats do when there is an even greater shortage of doctors?
Posted by Albee_Freeoneday
10th Aug 2010
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RE: The new insurance plan is to cut off doctors
Albee_Freeoneday - You do need a case of the shingles. Maybe some lower back pain thrown in. And for the record I am responsible for myself I have a good job, I'm very healthy. I am also responsible for my Mom. Who is not in good shape and thank god for medicare because otherwise I'd be broke.

One thing about health is that it's one of the things that we have while were young and generally gets worse as we get older. I'm glad that you are resourceful and responsible as many others. However don't always count on it. It will only take a car wreck on the way to home to change things for you forever.

And I am a small business owner. I'm absolutely for free enterprise. But with freedom comes responsibility. BP had the responsibility to drill safely. Look at the damage they caused. The loss of income to those that depended on the gulf. You are all about personal responsibility. At what point does a company accept the responsibility for the effect their decisions have on the rest of the people?

If you run someone down in the street tonight and they are permanently disabled are you going to take responsibility for them the rest of their lives. Didn't think so.

Regarding the Interstate highway system, I'm all for toll roads. Let the people that drive pay tolls and that way people that don't drive don't have to pay for them. That works fine in theory but in practice you would wind up with a patchwork of mish-mashed and sub-standard roads. But go for it, you don't have lower back pain - yet.

Best wishes
Posted by ked@...
10th Aug 2010
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Albee_Freeoneday
As the shortage of doctors increase, there are many things that
can be done. You can empower RNs and PAs through
technology. You can train more doctors. You can provide
incentives for doctors to choose primary care.

It's not an instant-on sort of deal, but nothing involving the market
ever is. Supply does not instantly catch up with ratcheted-up
demand. It takes some time.

Think of the 1981 Reagan tax cuts. In late 1982 the economy was
still on its back. But people stayed the course and soon it was
indeed morning in America. Same thing with the 1993 Clinton
plan, or indeed (as I'm sure you'll agree) the Bush tax cuts. It
takes time for these changes to work their way through the
system and get a result.
Posted by DanaBlankenhorn
10th Aug 2010
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ked@...
I would not wish shingles or lower back pain on anyone. Nor
would I wish any other emergency which, in the absence of
neighborly aid, might leave someone in pain or suffering an early
death.

But your point is well-taken. This is a system. Insurers who once
had no recourse but to limit risks by taking fewer customers now
have lots of customers, and can best limit risk by controlling
doctors and associated costs.

There is a lot of technology coming down the pike that will mean
cures at low cost. Or to diagnose earlier, at low cost, when
treatment costs are lower. http://news.cnet.com/8301-27083_3-
20013124-247.html

The fact is, however, that we will never be able to live forever. We
will still die. We will still have pain. We will never catch up with
that.

So we have to manage the health care system as a system, as
one whole, seeking to balance supply and demand. It's not
impossible. Europe does it. Japan does it. Canada does it. They
have different ways -- the health reform law looks more like the
Netherlands than anything else -- but the key to success is
looking at it all as one system, with finite resources attached to it.
Posted by DanaBlankenhorn
10th Aug 2010
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@DANA
I agree with your final paragraph in your response to IMWEIRA. Reading all the posts that nit pick and insult anyone who disagrees makes me wonder about the state of "Yankee knowhow" and the confidence that we can tackle any problem and win. Makes me feel like Ripley in the second Alien movie where she asks "Did all the IQs drop while I was sleeping?"

The nit pickers seem to have missed the important message from the financial industry crisis, Adam Smith's "invisible hand" failed to keep the extreme risk takers from taking the industry down with greed and lack of responsibility. The free market can do great things but it can run amuck. This was a surprise to Alan Greenspan.
Posted by sboverie
10th Aug 2010
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RE: The new insurance plan is to cut off doctors
Albee_Freeoneday

Here's an interesting answer to your question. You'll be force to pay for something that is not available to you. Period.

People in rural america already know this. This whole "issue" is a complete farce to them, and really, a slap in the their face. Here's an example to illustrate where I'm coming from;

You're stranded, hundreds of miles away from any human contact. No way of communication. Your injuried. Could you survive?

In this situation, there is no insurance, doctors, or others to accept responsibilty, only your ability.

Seems to me, alot of folks have forgotten what's really important (being able to take care of yourself/family no matter what).
Posted by geekinbach
10th Aug 2010
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Dana, you have a lot to learn about economics and about how people
react to business and government decisions.

Think of the 1981 Reagan tax cuts. In late 1982 the economy was still on its back. But people stayed the course and soon it was indeed morning in America.

You keep it up and you're going to be booted from the ranks of progressives/liberals/socialists. Your fellow liberals won't be too appreciative to hear from you that Reaganomics did indeed work.

Same thing with the 1993 Clinton plan,

What Clinton plan?

Raising taxes?

The fact is that the economy would've been much better off without the massive Clinton taxes. What saved the economy back then was the booming internet (dot.com bubble) and the republicans passing the balanced budget amendment. Without the dot.com economy, the Clinton taxes would've led to a disaster, just like all other tax hikes do. The balanced budget amendment from the republicans forced Clinton and congress to control spending which led to what Clinton claimed was a budget surplus (which didn't really happen, by the way). As it turned out, after the "dot.com bubble" burst, Clinton's tax cuts began cutting into the economy and the country was sent into a recession (remember that Bush came into office with a recession that had been underway for a few months when he took office).

or indeed (as I'm sure you'll agree) the Bush tax cuts.

You are definitely going to get kicked out from the liberal ranks. You can't go on admitting that tax cuts, whether from Reagan or Bush, were good for economic growth; you keep doing that and people will begin to think you've come to your senses.

It takes time for these changes to work their way through the system and get a result.

Now, take that last statement and apply it to the other government actions of the last 100 years or so.

It took a long time for Social Security to prove itself as a non-self-sustainable system. Social Security is now operating in the red and basically it's bankrupt. Same thing with Medicare. It's deeply in the red and there is no hope for recovery. The ERA program passed under Carter and given enforcement powers under Clinton became the reason for the 2008 recession (still underway); that real-estate bubble took just about 30 years to manifest itself and burst. In fact, there hasn't been any government program which in due time, perhaps decades or more, proved to be a success. Schools are a very big mess with so many failing students and drop-outs. While it may take a while for Obamacare to prove to be an absolute failure and an economy killer, there are signs that it's already beginning to fail.

Look, no matter how much you and others here and elsewhere want to deny it, government programs always end up costing more, and are always less efficient; the effect of all that is economic slowdowns in all sectors of the economy.

The economy is now in recession and mostly because of the uncertainty created by big government policies and heavy spending from the democrats who are in control right now. That uncertainty won't go away until the democrats lose control of congress and Obama is voted out in 2012.

The biggest problem for the government and the American people is that, even though Obamacare was passed, there isn't a way to pay for it and there won't be for a long time. Until the economy recovers, Obamacare is just a moot point. If the money is not there to cover the cost of the new monstrosity passed against the will of the people, then it might as well not exist.
Posted by adornoe@...
10th Aug 2010
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Mayo Clinic in AZ does not accept Medicare as payment in full
You, and the Obama administration, both have used the Mayo Clinic as an example of how to run hospitals. However, the Mayo Clinic in Glendale, AZ has stopped accepting Medicare as payment in full. Instead, they have their own fee schedule. They bill Medicare for whatever it will pay for a procedure, and then expect the patient to make up the difference. This is a pilot program, which could be spread to other Mayo Clinics if it works out.

According to a Mayo spokesperson, ?We firmly believe that Medicare needs to be reformed, It has been true for many years that Medicare payments no longer reflect the increasing cost of providing services for patients.? Note that the financing model for Obamacare heavily relies on drastically decreasing Medicare payments even further than they are today. Clearly this is not realistic.

See http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aHoYSI84VdL0
Posted by zackers
11th Aug 2010
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sboverie@...
Americans have always been like this. As a student of U.S. history, I
was taught this. What you hear here is not much different than what
you might hear in a bar, if we all met in one. The Internet has
become a virtual bar in that respect. You can talk with people you
agree with -- that's most common -- or seek out disagreement.

We try to keep things civil, but civil's relative, people have strong
opinions, and it gets heated. But no more so than in the Nixon era.
Posted by DanaBlankenhorn
11th Aug 2010
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zackers
There are many ways to negotiate. It's one thing to charge extra for
Medicare patients, but the point of this story is that insurance
payments are going to fall in line with Medicare, and then Mayo
needs to find another way.

Most hospitals will. Intermountain does. Kaiser does. Mayo will adapt
in time.
Posted by DanaBlankenhorn
11th Aug 2010
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@sboverie, I think you missed the lesson.
The nit pickers seem to have missed the important message
from the financial industry crisis, Adam Smith's "invisible hand"
failed to keep the extreme risk takers from taking the industry
down with greed and lack of responsibility.

The invisible hand did work. The "risk takers" took
immense risks because the risk to them was so minimal. It was
always implicit that Fannie/Freddie was de-facto backed by the
Federal government, and guess what? It was. It was always
expected that the big banks would be deemed "to big to fail", and
guess what? They were, and within months it was business as
usual.

The "Invisible Hand" it working just fine. The problem is that the
hand does not work in a vacuum. It is highly reactive to
government regulation and intervention. And soon we will see just
how reactive it gets when we get into the full swing of health care
"reform".
Posted by JohnMcGrew@...
11th Aug 2010
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@sboverie
If you have a complaint about losing your job or your life savings,
JohnMcGrew wants you to talk to the invisible hand.
Posted by DanaBlankenhorn
11th Aug 2010
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@JohnMcGrew
I have to disagree with you about the actions of the invisible hand. Adam Smith originally described economic theory 150 years ago. You have some credence with the government distorting economic processes but private industry has many powerful PACs that helped push through certain changes in laws that made the financial melt down happen. My point is that Greenspan made comments that indicated that his faith in the power of Adam Smith's iinvisible hand was shaken by what actually happened.

For argument sake, let's suppose there are 2 kinds of businessmen; one has the skills to tackle the challenges to make his business successful and the other lacks those skills but has skills to get politicians to make laws that favor him over non-connected businesses. Good business is sensitive to those changes that Adam Smith wrote about and the political business is able to use the government to protect itself from those changes in the economy that would ordinarily take out poor performing businesses.

The invisible hand of Adam Smith is his description of market forces that free marketeers like to point to to justify removing regulations. A lot of regulations are set to deal with past abuse like the old patent medicines led to the FDA and current pharmaceutical manufacturing. Some regulations were put in place to hurt upcoming competitors with the influence of political based business. The more changes backed by political businesses the less effective the invisible hand becomes.

My opinion is that the economic crisis was caused by government and business. The root of the word "economics" means to "choose" and we have chosen badly.
Posted by sboverie
11th Aug 2010
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sboverie@...
My apologies for having missed the joke. The pressure being put on
doctors by the insurance industry is the invisible hand at work. The
invisible hand writes but that doesn't mean you're always going to
like the result.
Posted by DanaBlankenhorn
11th Aug 2010
0 Votes
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Interesting
@DANABLANKENHORN

The invisible hand was used to describe how the markets achieve stabilty and also how the markets react to change through supply and demand. Buggy whip makers had a good run until enough people had cars and stopped buying buggy whips. The lesson is to pay attention to changes coming into the market and adapt before a particular market segment ends.

The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ,
Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,
Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it
-- Omar Khayyam
Posted by sboverie
11th Aug 2010
0 Votes
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Once again...
...Dana demonstrates his flippant attitude when the science does
suit his agenda. Just because the "invisible hand" often does
things that we may find undesirable doesn't make the existence of
the "invisible hand" any less valid or relevant.

@sboverie, all business operates in the environment that it finds
itself. If the environment is chock full of "moral hazard" as ours
was, then it is rational to expect that business will operate as it
sees fit. The folly is to expect it to do anything otherwise, which
our leaders always seem to do.
Posted by JohnMcGrew@...
11th Aug 2010
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JohnMcGrew@...
Economics is a very dismal science, and Adam Smith favored
intervention in the markets. Look it up. (As did the other Adam
Smith, the 20th century economics educator.)

My point wasn't flippant. Don't turn principles into ideology unless
you want to be bitten on the buttocks.
Posted by DanaBlankenhorn
12th Aug 2010
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Business Environment
@JohnMcGrew

Are you suggesting that the business environment has a lot of moral hazards? What kind of moral hazards are you talking about, the one where an entire financial sector decides that it is ok to sell dirivitives and bet against the customer at the same time? The one where there is a revolving door between the Pentagon and the corporations that supply the military? Or are you suggesting that the devil made them do it?

I was hoping to make a case that there is honest business and dishonest business but it appears I failed. A dishonest business uses the government to make changes that give them an edge over the honest business; it is the dishonest business that wants events to be ignored so that they can keep cheating.
Posted by sboverie
12th Aug 2010
0 Votes
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Mayo and Medicare
@DanaBlankenhorn: You and others can't use the Mayo Clinic as a shining example of how to do medicine in the debate leading up to Obamacare, and then say later "Oops, they've got it wrong after all and will just have to learn to adapt." when Mayo says it may have to thrown in the towel. That's nonsense. Either you got the facts wrong before or you've got them wrong now. If you got the facts wrong before, it undermines the whole basis on which Obamacare was sold to us.

It's not just Mayo. Many other hospitals and doctors are thinking about leaving Medicare as well. That's why each year Congress has to pass laws overturning the unrealistic cuts in Medicare payments (they tried again this year after passing Obamacare even though those cuts are absolutely necessary for the Obamacare funny math to work). If Medicare payments were kept at the yearly decreasing levels Congress passed in the '90s (which is the current law) then Medicare and Medicaid would collapse tomorrow.
Posted by zackers
12th Aug 2010
0 Votes
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The very dismal science
Dana, people who choose to ignore the "invisible hand" are the
ones who usually get bit on the buttocks.

And don't start misquoting Adam Smith. Smith only favored
intervention in the market as it related to preserving competition.
There's very little of what's been going on lately that he'd smile
upon; and certainly not a Federal Government implementing
Soviet-style control over an entire industry.

@sboverie: The "Moral Hazard" I am talking about was the
environment created by the fed setting very low interest rates (in
the name of "stimulus" since the dot-com crash), and government
policy designed to make financing for home ownership
"affordable" to those who would not be able to finance a home
otherwise.

Since it was difficult for banks to make a worthwhile profit carrying
paper on mortgages that were being made in the 5%-6% range,
they found that it was far more profitable to focus on making and
selling the loans to Fannie & Freddie, who would buy almost
anything as long as they met certain guidelines. The profit was
now made in origination and loan servicing fees and doing
massive volume. Since they would be making these loans
knowing that they would not be carrying the paper (risk), they
really didn't care about the quality of the loan. That would be
Freddie & Fannie's problem.

Meanwhile, investors were happy to buy the repackaged loans
from Freddie & Fannie with minimal regard to what was actually in
the portfolios. Why? Because there was an implicit guarantee
that should Freddie & Fannie falter, the Federal Government
would step in to bail them out. And guess what? They were right!

So, my question to you is: Were bankers "dishonest" when a
government sponsored agency was willing and happy to
purchase loans that they would not have made if it was their own
money and jobs at stake?

Or how about this: Soon, insurance companies will be required to
accept all comers, regardless of pre-existing conditions. So it will
be possible to remain uninsured and spend all that money on
other things until the day comes when one gets sick. Then they
can get insurance. That is certainly a "moral hazard". Will the
consumer that does this be "dishonest"?
Posted by JohnMcGrew@...
13th Aug 2010
0 Votes
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RE: The new insurance plan is to cut off doctors
We just have to have faith and hope that things improve, these diseases are extending cancerigenas very often, even more so when things in health care are being carried in a manner inconsistent in hospitals, I hope these changes she will do with the government deliver the expected results.
http://bit.ly/a8A8p7
Posted by neto_vicodin
13th Aug 2010
0 Votes
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Thanks for the explaination
@JohnMcGrew
Thanks for clearing up what you meant by moral hazard. Basically, you are saying that the narrow margins had to be made up somewhere else. I can see this point. You left out the change in an old law that allowed commercial banks to act like investment banks.

As for the problems with Freddie and Fannie; I don't know much about them other than they were quasi private business similar to the Federal Reserve Bank. It is hard to argue about an implicit guarantee in this case as the results resemble what you described but there is more information needed to make that judgement.

To answer your question about whether bankers were dishonest is to point out that the actions look like a con job. What happened was a sting by con men, the sting worked in such a way that the victims did not ever know they were stung. This kind of con works because the victims were also dishonest and plain naieve regarding the motives of the bankers. The dirivitives acted a bit like taking a barrel of good apples and putting in one rotten one to get rid of bad goods; the one rotten apple caused the good apples to also rot. This is simplistic but it shows that the dirivitives were a con.

Your last paragraph is interesting when you talk about insurance companies being forced to pay the costs for someone who cheats by not getting insurance until they get sick. The status quo did that except it wasn't the insurance companies who were forced to pay, it is everyone else who got billed for a $10 aspirin at the hosipital.

You are making the "Welfare Queen" argument that dishonest people will game the insurance companies to get care only when they get sick. This does happen in similar circumstances but there are laws that address this problem. The bigger problem was that the insurance companies were gaming the system themselves; they cancelled policies that might turn into expensive treatments and would stretch problems into "pre-existing" conditions and use that as a pretext to deny coverage.

How we treat our most vulnerable citizens reflect on our core values. It was once considered a sign of a country's progress how well the citizens lived. Metrics like literacy rates, population growth, income per capita and life expectancy were used to compare countries and governing systems. We in the US are not looking very good and too many think that is OK. We are not spending our money effectively or efficiently.

Thanks for the discussion, you have several valid points that add to helping find good solutions to problems we have to face.
Posted by sboverie
13th Aug 2010
0 Votes
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@ked
ked@

"You do need a case of the shingles."
No, I checked, the shingles on my roof still have another
10 years in them, so I won't be needing any shingles till
then. And at that point I may go solar... who knows.

"Maybe some lower back pain thrown in."
You know, your negativity and harm comes right back at you
10 fold.

And as far as a pain in my lower back, you sir, are
actually giving me a pain even lower happy

"I am a small business owner."
I doubt that.

"I'm absolutely for free enterprise."
Not from your posts... In fact they show the exact opposite
of what you now claim.

"But with freedom comes responsibility."
Exactly and apparently you can not handle that.

"At what point does a company accept the responsibility for
the effect their decisions have on the rest of the people? "

When it affects their market share.

"If you run someone down in the street tonight and they are
permanently disabled are you going to take responsibility
for them the rest of their lives."

No, I carry insurance TO PROTECT THE OTHER GUY. That would
be the opposite of the government handouts you seem to
want.

You are to be laughed at for your lack of personal
responsibility.

And once again you have decided to speak out of both sides
of your mouth regarding your nonsensical statements about
highways and toll roads.

"I was for it before I was against it"... Is that your
point.

Love,
Albee
Posted by Albee_Freeoneday
13th Aug 2010
0 Votes
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Albee_Freeoneday
Personal insults directed at people who disagree with you devalue
everything you have to say. If you were having such conversations
face-to-face you would be getting into a lot of fistfights.

That's a point we should all consider before we post comments
anywhere. If you'd be looking for a punch in the nose saying it to my
face, you probably should re-word it here.
Posted by DanaBlankenhorn
16th Aug 2010
0 Votes
+ -
Is it "cheating" if the system is designed to work that way?
@sboverie:

Basically, you are saying that the narrow margins had to be
made up somewhere else.

No, basically what I am saying is that nature abhors a vacuum. If
it's easier to make money one way over another, businesses are
going to shift to the easier way.

Freddie and Fannie were products of the "new deal" and later
efforts in the '70s to increase the rates of home ownership. (In
the '30s, liquid capital was not as mobile as it is today, and local
banks could only lend out so much money for mortgages) And
like most government programs, they spawned a life of their own
long after the marketplace has rendered them obsolete, including
bookkeeping scandals and secondary lives as political tools. By
the time it became clear that trouble was on the horizon, the Bush
Administration had no political capital left to address the problem
that Democrats denied even existed. The rest is recent history.

As for the bankers: People buy and sell risky commodities every
day. (I'm still kicking myself for not buying Ford last year when it
was under $2; I'd be retired today otherwise) The people who
took risks on dirivitives were not Ma & Pa Kettle, but the most
sophisticated of investors. (by both the legal and practical
definition of the term) If their bets had paid off, they'd be
regarded as geniuses. They knew what they were doing, or at
least though so. These were billionaire and institutional
investors; there was nothing naive about them.

And who was the real victim of the con? Wasn't the holders of
Freddie & Fannie. It was you and I my friend, courtesy of the US
Congress and Administration!

You are making the "Welfare Queen" argument that dishonest
people will game the insurance companies to get care only when
they get sick. This does happen in similar circumstances but
there are laws that address this problem.

And what laws would those be? This is happening right now in
Massachusetts, Tennessee and other states that have programs
similar to OmabaCare. Exactly how do you stop it? ObamaCare
does add a tax on the uninsured. However, at the current rate of
growth of my premiums, this tax will be about 1/10th of what I
expect to be paying for health insurance when ObamaCare fully
kicks in on Jan 1, 2014. In order to eliminate the "moral hazard"
of ObamaCare, the tax levied will have to be close to what I
already pay. But of course, that will never happen. It can't
happen because if you can't afford insurance, you certainly can't
afford to pay a tax equal to the cost of that insurance.

Hence, ObamaCare is designed to fail. And anyone who's looked
at the math know is.
Posted by JohnMcGrew@...
16th Aug 2010
0 Votes
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RE: The new insurance plan is to cut off doctors
Not sure I understand this is "cutting off" doctors as the first step in control - first you have to measure what you try to control. A major side benefit is that with better measurement we get better outcomes and much of the learnings can be provided through automated services. Let be real - when you schedule a doctor visit, you typically interact twice as long with the nurse and other support staff than the doctor.

We have a system that is dangerously out of whack, spending roughly 3 times the world average per person on healthcare, with longevity outcomes at the bottom of the Western world.

Eliminating denial of pre-existing conditions should be the first step in proactively managing the health-care risks by turning the focus from a reactive to a proactive process of teaching healthy behavioral habits - no to smoking, alcohol and drigs in favor of more exercise, dietary regulation and vegetarian focus.

This is both for a healthy America and healthy planet by changing consumption models that get us back to a more sustainable energy balance - that is cost effective and good for us.
Posted by gigabob@...
24th Aug 2010
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