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Death panels and other cheap ways to save money fast

By | August 2, 2010, 8:34 AM PDT

Atul Gawande of The New Yorker is drawing considerable attention this week for his analysis of a 2009 Aetna study on hospices, published in the Journal of Palliative Health, showing the option saves money and is more humane.

The key takeaway was that talking to people who are dying, and dealing with them humanely, can save insurers money and provide what consumers consider a better service.

Whether the hospice was made a standard option or an expensive add-on, palliative care (as opposed to curative care) was seen as very attractive. The study encouraged “comprehensive case management” as a way to increase hospice use.

The bottom line. Offering hospice saves money and eases the final passage.

Unfortunately, this option was taken out of the new health reform law. Opponents called it the “death panel.” But the study shows insurers will likely find a way to offer this service, because it boosts the bottom line.

I can speak to this from personal experience. I had a relative who was offered hospice care when it became obvious his disease was fatal. His passing was almost a celebration, in contrast to that of my own father, who died in a hospital alone. What the Aetna study shows is that the first case also cost less, so with insurers now having incentives to save money expect to see more of it.

Another way to save big money is to integrate clinic Electronic Health Records (EHRs) with best practices, especially with regard to drug choices. Nearly $20 billion has been budgeted by the government to improve health IT, and this is one of the definitions for “meaningful use” that will drive the spending.

Take hypertension, for instance. If more doctors knew that niacin supplements from the supermarket could be as effective as a licensed drug version, or that many combination therapies cost less than name brand counterparts, if this knowledge were there at the point of prescription, they would use these options, saving their chronically ill patients a lot of money.

A lot of new money can also be saved with old drugs.

Substances like Misoprostol, once seen only as an ulcer cure, are finding new uses, saving lives as well as money around the world.  The point here is that new breakthroughs don’t have to come from new compounds. They can come from finding new uses for old ones.

All this amounts to health reform on the ground. By just being given an incentive to save money, insurers gravitate toward these solutions, just as they’re looking to gain more control over their networks, or encourage wellness.

Expect health inflation in the U.S. to slow, relative to that in the rest of the world, as this takes hold. There is an enormous amount of low-hanging fruit when it comes to saving money in American health care, and insurers now have a real incentive to pick it.

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Dana Blankenhorn

About Dana Blankenhorn

Dana Blankenhorn was a contributing editor for SmartPlanet from 2009 to 2010.

Dana Blankenhorn

Dana Blankenhorn

Contributing Editor, Healthcare

Dana Blankenhorn has written for the Chicago Tribune, Advertising Age's "NetMarketing" supplement and founded the Interactive Age Daily for CMP Media. He holds degrees from Rice and Northwestern universities. He is based in Atlanta.

Follow him on Twitter.

Dana Blankenhorn

Dana Blankenhorn

Dana Blankenhorn has been a technology reporter since 1982, a business reporter since 1978, and a writer for as long as he can remember. His Schwab IRA has a few tech stocks in it, most notably some Intel and Applied Materials bought over 10 years ago. But the vast majority of his tiny fortune (emphasis on the word tiny) is invested in mutual funds. He presently writes for no one else but ZDNet, SmartPlanet and himself. But if you've got an opportunity let him know. If he takes the gig he"ll first add it to this disclosure page.

He writes for SmartPlanet and is not an employee of CBS.

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0 Votes
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England has tried this...
In England you get transferred to a care facility when you terminal illness gets to a point where you cannot live normally at home. You have no say in the matter.

Since the US health care debate drew England into the discussion their news organizations have found hundreds of tragic cases where treatable diseases were misdiagnosed by shoddy testing.

Just in the past 2 years hundreds of people have been diagnosed with stage 4 cancers of something, thrown into these clinics because they are crippled with pain and soon after died. They died from things that could have been easily treated like a swollen appendix and gallstones.

I hope the money saved was worth it.
Posted by Hates Idiots
2nd Aug 2010
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RE: Death panels and other cheap ways to save money fast
HI, got any documentation to back that up or is it just another anecdote?
Posted by riverat1
2nd Aug 2010
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There are lots of anecdotes
You can get anecdotes from anywhere, but the plain fact is
England pays half the GDP we do and gets better results for its
people than we do. And no English political party supports an end
to the NHS.

It's a silly argument anyway. We can't have unlimited pull from a
common pool, because all common pools are by definition limited.
Or as conservatives love to say, TANSTAAFL -- There Ain't No
Such Thing As A Free Lunch.

I think you should be able to buy whatever additional coverage
you can afford, and have transparent pricing in the open market
for care. But the common pool must have limits, somehow,
delivered in some way.

The point of this story is there is enormous fat in the system the
common pool in America draws from, so incentives for savings will
deliver results.
Posted by DanaBlankenhorn
2nd Aug 2010
0 Votes
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RE: Death panels and other cheap ways to save money fast
actually, this contradicts a previous study that suggests hospice costs more if used correctly
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199402243300806.
Posted by tioedong@...
2nd Aug 2010
0 Votes
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There are lots of anecdotes
You can get anecdotes from anywhere, but the plain fact is
England pays half the GDP we do and gets better results for its
people than we do. And no English political party supports an end
to the NHS.

And the "plain fact" is not pretty:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/7908742/Axe-falls-on-NHS-
services.html

Other than that, I do agree about hospice care. Having been a
party to it several times, I find it far more humane than the
traditional high-cost approach to dying.
Posted by JohnMcGrew@...
3rd Aug 2010
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RE: Death panels and other cheap ways to save money fast
Like many commentators, you have purposely confused Gov. Palin's definition of "Death Panels". She was not talking about end of life counseling. She was talking about unaccountable committees of bureaucrats who decide what care is "efficient" and what will be allowed to be given based on one's age and "value to society". Those panels are still in the law. And she was right to be wary of them.

You say people should be allowed to pay for any extra care they can afford. But there won't be much left in a decade or so when the full cost of ObamaCare kicks in and taxes have to be raised to support it.

Are you really looking to the federal government to improve health care efficiency? The federal government? Really?
Posted by mcmanuslive@...
3rd Aug 2010
0 Votes
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RE: Death panels and other cheap ways to save money fast
The term "death panels" was an incendiary phrase concocted by political grandstanders to raise the hackles of opponents of the health care bill. Life and death decisions are constantly being made in medical establishments. Such decisions need to be made intelligently and humanely, based on the patient's wishes and with consultation among family members and doctors. The decisions should NOT be influenced by a person's lack of health insurance.
Posted by LedLincoln
3rd Aug 2010
0 Votes
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RE: Death panels and other cheap ways to save money fast
The slippery slope of the issue has to do with people who no longer have a choice about their options "when the outcome of their conditition becomes obvious." Any good idea can be used properly and do good. Too often though, the idea can be used to abuse the weak and helpless. Where/what are the safeguards?
Posted by mchenryc
3rd Aug 2010
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I agree with LedLincoln
The term "death panel" is specifically designed to create fear. Mr.
Blankenhorn, you are a writer, you therefore know the power of
words. Now granted such buzz terms get a response but is the
response what you wanted?
Posted by KarrasB
3rd Aug 2010
0 Votes
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Not Right Part 1
Dana, you and most liberal/socialist/progressives who support Democare seem to want to believe that having everyone covered (Democare does not do this) will automatically stop people from being sick, or dying, or whatever.

Are you propagandizing, stupid (I think you are smart not stupid), not thinking about what you are saying, living in a dreamland, or fooled by what you hope for and not the reality?

It has to be one of those as you are praising Democare and trying to convince us it is good for us. And it is the "end-all, be-all" to preventing disease,

Anyone with even 1/2 a brain knows that insurance only is there to reduce the costs of getting medical treatment. It does not keep a person healthy, disease free, prevent accidents etc.

You want people to be healthy? You can't force them. They have to take responsibility for how they live, what they eat, how much they eat, how they exercise, etc.

Having health insurance does nothing to mitigate their behavior, and in today's day and age when people call 911 to report a McDonald's that runs out of Chicken Nuggets... do you really expect them to live healthier?

There is absolutely ZERO justification to take money I have earned and give it to someone else because you, or anyone else thinks that person needs my money more than I do.

It is immoral. It is slavery.

Additionally, it is morally wrong, and CONgress overstepped their authority when they passed a law forcing me to buy something.

What is next Dana, forcing me to buy a GM piece of crap? Or a Mopar one so Obama's union buddies can get more money?

Maybe they will next force me to pay for union pension systems that are bankrupt. the demorats have been discussing that and floated that trial balloon.

Democare is immoral, and illegal.
Posted by Albee_Freeoneday
3rd Aug 2010
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Not Right Part 2
"The key takeaway was that talking to people who are dying, and dealing with them humanely, can save insurers money and provide what consumers consider a better service."
Yes, a hospice can do that. I believe if a person wants to end their life, then they should be allowed to do it as long as they are not harming the public (jumping in front of a train/bus/car, suicide by police, etc).

People are kept on life support against their will due to some other person (including bureaucrats who will be running Democare) believing it is wrong to end a life and every effort must be made to preserve their life.

So I agree with you on the principle of hospices... I am 100% for hospices provided people pay for them out of their own pocket. It is not my responsibility to pay for someone else's health care, mortgage, food, education, clothing, vacation, internet connection, cell phone, tv set, cable tv, or anything else. They are a person. They can pay for themselves. If they can't afford it... sacrifice something in their lifestyle to afford it.Maybe if they stopped going to McDonald's and eating Chicken McNuggets they could save enough money to pay for their own things.

That being said, if I want to -- out of my own volition -- without threat or coercion from anyone want to pay for someone else, there is nothing wrong with that. And anyone who is going to accuse me of "being greedy" I ask, isn't it you who is greedy by wanting to take what you did not earn from someone else for yourself? Who gives you the Godlike insight and superior moral authority to determine what is fair and what is not fair, and who needs and deserves to get what?
Posted by Albee_Freeoneday
3rd Aug 2010
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Not Right Part 3
"Another way to save big money is to integrate clinic Electronic Health Records (EHRs) with best practices"
Great opportunity to help identity thieves. Is that what you want?

What about my privacy? Why does anyone other than those whom I say have the right to look at any of my medical or other records?

"If more doctors knew that niacin supplements from the supermarket could be as effective as a licensed drug version"
The AMA, and pharmaceutical companies, FDA and most members of CONgress do not want the public to know. That is why they keep spreading rumors that the FDA does not regulate supplements (they do). That is why McCain, a lot of republicans and demorats try and limit citizens choice on what they can buy regarding supplements. And why the FDA is claiming they can tell people what they can eat and what they can't. Lawyers for the FDA said so in their fight against citizens rights to buy raw milk.
Posted by Albee_Freeoneday
3rd Aug 2010
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RE: Death panels and other cheap ways to save money fast
My mom died in a Hospice. The last three months of her life was spent in there with me occasionally taking her out for an afternoon when she felt well enough. I cannot say too many good things about the Hospice. If they are kept as is, (my experience only), I would KEEP them in place. These are people who KNOW how to talk and treat the dieing. Their compassion and understanding is unfathomable. To the dieing there are many things that are important. These people help in immeasurable ways. IF you are concerned, this should be kept in the HCB. As much care needs to be given at the end as in the beginning of life. As for the EHR's. I say NO. Any records are open to any nefarious person. Imagine when everything is known about you and your Family in one conveinent place. Security is a myth. Government insistance of security is BS. All you records will be open to ALL insurers AND credit companies. All information about you WILL be contained in your centralized records, inevitable, unless we insist on better security BEFORE this is enacted.
Posted by Solution1
3rd Aug 2010
0 Votes
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Death Panel
The death panel lie succeeded in having payments for end of life
counseling taking out of the health reform bill. That's why I used it
here, because the subject of the post was end of life counseling,
and the savings generated by enabling it.
Posted by DanaBlankenhorn
3rd Aug 2010
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JohnMcGrew@...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/7908742/Axe-falls-on-NHS-
services.html The link does not prove your case, which is that the
NHS is being abandoned. It's not. Its budget is being cut, and the
Telegraph is sounding an alarm about that, because many in
England may not want its budget cut as much as proposed.

That's just the way systems work. We have a health care system.
We don't have an unlimited fund for doing anything you want
done, in either the private insurance market or the public purse.

Those who don't like the NHS, or American insurance, and can
afford to buy more care should be allowed to buy it. But the fact
that any common pool isn't unlimited is not news, nor does it
prove anything.
Posted by DanaBlankenhorn
3rd Aug 2010
0 Votes
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RE: Death panels and other cheap ways to save money fast
if we can somehow clear away the deadwood, allbe_freeoneday, and talk sensibly about the problems then we will get to solve them.sara talked about 'death panels' and she knew what she was doing, probably one of the few times.
fear and panic have worked well in this world because most people either do not care or do not listen. we know most voting decisions are made as the voter enters the booth, so the idea is to catch their eye at the last second, or so scare the bejeezus out of them so that they never can forget and vote your way.

i doubt that doctors will ever start using any but the newest and latest. they are shopped by the drug companies and their patients , listening to the tv ads demand the latest, not the best. the best is as likely to be some older drug , now a generic and cheaper, butit is not sexy. celebrex goes out of it s way to avoid being clased with vioxx, but it is justy an nsaid, like many on the market. there are 7 or 8 that could be used effectively but are on perscription, not given out by doctors and few people know of them. in mexico they are all over the counter and are used , and have been used, for years regularly and chronically. they are enough different that there is always one that works. one need not buy the expensive aleve or advil, but if you want them, the generic types of these are available cheaply.

for hypertension, the initial diuretics are still sold and work as well as any of the newer product, but few doctors perscribe them any more. it is the same old same old, follow the money.
Posted by stilt21
3rd Aug 2010
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Albee_Freeoneday
I understand and even respect your anger concerning health
reform, but demonizing those who disagree -- whether it's me, or
the President, or Democrats -- isn't going to help you.

Democracy, as a system, depends for its existence on a degree
of good will, an assumption that we come to our disagreements
with clean hands and without ill motives.

If you don't want to live in a democracy, there are many other
systems available in the world. But America is, and I believe will
remain, a democracy.

So sometimes you're going to lose a political argument. I was
given this lecture many times during the Bush years, and it holds
now as well.
Posted by DanaBlankenhorn
3rd Aug 2010
0 Votes
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RE: Death panels and other cheap ways to save money fast
"Democracy" does not mean 50% plus one of the voters get to steal things from the other 50%. That's not what "living in a democracy" is about.

Sarah Palin NEVER talked about "Death Panels" to mean end of life counseling. Why do you continue to perpetuate this myth?

To say that one statement by Palin on Facebook brought fear into the debate, when Obama and the Dems demagogued this issue for months on end is the height of hyperbole. Remember when Obama told us that pediatricians took out tonsils just to make more money? Remember when Obama said surgeons would chop off the limbs of those with diabetes just to make money? This is irresponsible fear mongering by the President, not by Palin.
Posted by mcmanuslive@...
3rd Aug 2010
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mcmanuslive@...
Please.

Democracy can mean sending you to your death, and has,
whenever the nation declared war. If you define every element of
government supported by taxation as "theft," then yes democracy
is going to be institutionalized theft -- so is every other form of
government.

Mandatory purchases and guaranteed issue have been a part of
this health care debate for 40 years. They were proposed as a
solution by Richard Nixon and made part of Mitt Romney's
program in Massachusetts. We have to buy car insurance to
drive. The idea is we have to do it to maintain health as well.

My point was opponents of health reform, who perpetrated the
"death panel" lie, succeeded in having this essential service
taken out of the final passage. As to whether Palin was part of
that debate, maybe you'll believe The Wall Street Journal
http://online.wsj.com/article/NA_WSJ_PUB:SB1000142405297020
4409904574350400852801602.html

A lot was said in the debate, and a lot of compromises were
forged in order to get something passed. This has been a policy
goal of Presidents since Theodore Roosevelt. To claim
opponents were all honest and proponents dishonest in all their
arguing is simply false.

The plain fact is that "death panels" is a lie that is still believed by
many, and correcting this misperception could increase support
for the reform program. (http://www.brendan-
nyhan.com/blog/2010/07/the-persistence-of-the-death-panels-
myth.html) Correcting lies, telling people the honest truth about
what government programs do and don't do, is a responsible
function for any government.

You lost the argument. Accept it. Democrats managed to accept it
when they lost arguments. Republicans need to in this case.
Even while they try to overturn the decision in courts and through
the democratic process.
Posted by DanaBlankenhorn
3rd Aug 2010
0 Votes
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RE: Death panels and other cheap ways to save money fast
Health care socialists did not "win" any debate on it's merits. They bought key senate votes with the most outlandish bribery schemes seen in modern times.

Obama is so scared of the electorate he had to make a recess appointment of Dr. Donald Berwick, one of the key bureaucrats who will manage the "death panels" for Medicare and Medicaid.

If Obama is the winner on health care reform, he sure isn't acting like it.
Posted by mcmanuslive@...
3rd Aug 2010
0 Votes
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mcmanuslive@...
You missed the weekend's headlines, didn't you?

Marc Mezvinsky married Chelsea Clinton. You remember her
dad? You know who his mom was? Marjorie Margolies-Mezvinsky,
the final vote for the 1993 Clinton economic package. Clinton
promised prosperity from it, Mezvinsky's opponents chanted she
would "lose" her seat, and she did.

Sometimes political leaders have to take stands they know will be
unpopular in the short run in order to make things better in the
long run. This is what George W. Bush often said he was doing in
regard to Iraq, and it was certainly what he said he was willing to
do on behalf of the "surge."

The chicken is the wisest of all the animals. She only cackles
after the egg is laid.
Posted by DanaBlankenhorn
3rd Aug 2010
0 Votes
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Isn't That What Hitler Said
You lost the argument. Accept it.
Posted by Albee_Freeoneday
3rd Aug 2010
0 Votes
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Once again, Dana chooses to argue against his straw man creation of me...
...instead of the real me: "The link does not prove your case,
which is that the NHS is being abandoned."

Just when did I ever say that?

Not even Margaret Thatcher was able to touch the NHS. (And for
those too young to remember, Thatcherism transformed Britain
far more radically than Reaganism only theoretically transformed
America)

The NHS will never be abandoned, which is the point. Once "the
people" become dependent upon a system, no matter how awful it
may end up being, it will be impossible to abandon it. Which is
the entire point behind ObamaCare; to get the middle class
dependent upon it with no where else left to go. At that point, the
ruling class can do whatever they want.

So the point of that link was about how all of the right-wing
criticisms of theoretical ObamaCare that progressives pooh-poog
about are actually happening today at the NHS.
Posted by JohnMcGrew@...
3rd Aug 2010
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To mcmanuslive@, regarding "Democracy"
"Democracy" in its purest form literally does mean 50% plus
one of the voters get to steal things from the other 50%. Just take a
look at what our tax code has become, and what our own President
and Treasury Secretary are advocating. Democracy is two wolves
and a sheep voting on what is for dinner. It's only a constitution and
a strong adherence to rule of law that saves us from a
tyranny of the masses.
Posted by JohnMcGrew@...
3rd Aug 2010
0 Votes
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JohnMcGrew@...
There has been dishonesty perpetrated by both sides in this
debate, but the basic dimension remains clear.

England pays half what we do and gets better results. They know
it. You can call those people whatever names you wish, but
they're not going Galt for you. Neither, for that matter, are the
Canadians.

The system created by health reform is similar to that of the
Netherlands or Germany. Both countries pay much less for care
than we do, and both get better results than we do.

At the same time, Democrats have been dishonest in promising
nothing would really change in health reform. Something has to.
We have to bend the cost curve downward, toward the levels of,
say, the Netherlands and Germany.

This entails hard choices. Limits must be placed on what will be
paid for out of a common pool. European countries and Canada
make these choices all the time. Transparently, openly, often
through a politicized process, but with enough scientific input that
the results are generally approved of by citizens in those
countries. (No European country wants the American system.)

I understand you don't want there to be a common pool. But
unless you are truly wealthy, you are hurting your own cause that
way. Because insurance must pay, today, for whatever
treatments are approved for use, if a doctor prescribes it. This
means there is no limit on pay-outs, thus no limit on price
increases. Over time you lose your coverage.

Which leaves you to the mercies of the market. True, letting the
poor and the old and the veterans die, denying them care entirely
because you don't want to spend your tax dollars on them, can
be done. You want to stop the current cost-shifting? You can do
that, too.

Now while millions of us are becoming zombies due to a lack of
care, you're still left with the same problem of limits. What
treatments should you buy? Which should you forego? With no
advice, other than ads, you're truly at the mercy of whatever your
doctor wants to do.

That's the future you're supporting. I support a different future.
But that begins with both sides -- liberal and conservative --
engaging in a real debate, rather than hurling charges of ill will
toward one another.
Posted by DanaBlankenhorn
3rd Aug 2010
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Albee_Freeoneday
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

(excerpt) It is precisely because such a comparison or reference
may sometimes be appropriate, Godwin has argued[4] that overuse
of Nazi and Hitler comparisons should be avoided, because it robs
the valid comparisons of their impact.
Posted by DanaBlankenhorn
3rd Aug 2010
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RE: Death panels and other cheap ways to save money fast
WOW!!! Some more "classic" buzzword, fear-mongering and
sound-bite conservative rants. Sorry, but the invective postings of
Albee_Freeoneday, JohnMcGrew@ and mcmanuslive@ don't
manage to get out of "the gutter" and be included in the category
of conversation. Oh, and I'll save you the "ink" and explain that
being educated above the state of a parrot possessing an 8th
grade education is not erudite. Being informed, inquisitive and
able to apply "higher level" independent thought merely
separates those so equipped from the lower animals. Your fear-
mongering is annoying, but scary only in that you have thus far
eluded Mr. Darwin. I find it ironic that many of the people whose
rights I defended for over 20 years while in our military have next
to no education/exposure in "factual" history or the basic
definitions and exercise of actual systems of governance. Case in
point, the purely inflammatory use of the terms Socialism,
Obamacare/Democare, and invoking Hitler yet again. If you were
to actually take your xenophobic beliefs and leave our shores,
you would probably amend, or even discard, many of your
"rubber stamp" positions once confronted by the reality of the
world. Some of you may support Ronald Reagan's view that
"Facts are stupid things," but I choose to temper your rants and
raves from Einstein's (I know, one of those Fascist German
Jews..LOL) viewpoint; "Few people are capable of expressing with
equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social
environment. Most people are even incapable of forming such
opinions."
Posted by Datadad
3rd Aug 2010
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To mcmanuslive@, regarding "Democracy"
You need to choose. Do you believe in democracy? If not, please
leave. Russia is getting warmer. China is becoming wealthier.
Saudi Arabia bans porn. There are lots of options.

If you do believe in democracy, then please don't accept at face
value any argument which assumes Democracy" in its purest
form literally does mean 50% plus one of the voters get to steal
things from the other 50%.

It only leads to despair, and despair never wins elections.
Posted by DanaBlankenhorn
3rd Aug 2010
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Albee_Freeoneday, are you serious?
You trot out a plethora of facts we all know very well already -- as if you think they've never occurred to us.

But all of your reasons come down to one and one only: you don't want any of the money you "earn" spent for the benefit of someone else. That's it. That's your reason.

Do you use roads that I helped pay for? Bridges? Do your kids go to school? Do you shop at shopping centers that were subsidized by tax breaks -- that I made up the slack for? What about the tax-paid-for airports you fly from? What about teevee that reaches you thanks in part to tax breaks I helped pay for?

You see my point. We are a socially-connected culture, and we ALL help pay for EVERYTHING that is built. I've yet to see a publically-accessable project built entirely by private funds, and I'd wager that you haven't either.

So give it up. I pay for things that benefit you, and I DO expect that you will do the same for me. If that really is your only point, then you need to find some new reasons to oppose public health.

On the other hand, if you really are convinced that you've never paid for me, and never me for you, then you have not a leg to stand on, expecting me to listen to your views, because someone who refuses to pay for society DOES NOT GAIN THE BENEFIT OF MY ATTENTION.

Go preach to the society YOU'VE paid for. THEY are the only ones who have to listen to your nonsense.
Posted by Lightning Joe
3rd Aug 2010
0 Votes
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Why they're scared
This is addressed to the liberal critics of some of the conservative
posters.

We need to be more understanding. Politicians have fed their
followers a lot of fear about these proposals, and those who
believed those arguments are rightfully fearful of what's now
happening.

It's hard when your world view collapses. This sort of thing
happens only once in every generation. President Bush, and the
Republican grassroots, believed fervently in the principles that
crashed the ambulance. Those principles seem under direct
threat right now. Scary stuff is happening -- the politicians and
media they most trust insist constantly they need to be scared,
active, and angry.

The political environment is not going to change unless new
principles are validated by time, by results on the ground, and by
the results of subsequent elections.

I'm not just saying Democrats vs. Republicans. It's also important
which Democrats and Republicans win. Over time I expect those
who are most serious, those who are most willing to engage, on
both sides will win. That's what our country's previous history tells
me will happen over time.

But there are no guarantees. There never are. And I'm not talking
about a process that takes place over a few months. I'm talking
about a decade-long process.

Hug a conservative today.
Posted by DanaBlankenhorn
3rd Aug 2010
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Albee_Freeoneday, are you serious? Part 2
Okay so I got carried away with my first response, and didn't address your "issues." So, down the line:

You take paragraphs to explain that having health insurance does nothing to mitigate someone's healthy-or-not behaviours. But why do you think we don't know that? That's not our argument. We just think that it's nice to be able to get medical aide when it's needed, rather than having, say, to cancel your coverage as I've had to do, to afford to simply live.

We libs are what the Reich seem to think is an alien species. That is, we are people who feel for, who care about, and who want to support other people. Everyone supports everyone else in this culture, across the board; and if someone can't see that, they need to learn how to look. We support each other just by existing in this world -- even as we also feel the friction of it -- and we libs don't mind that interdependence. It's a simple matter of things being easier to do if you do them together. You, I assume, have God and your church for that. We libs have everyone -- including you. In contrast, doing WITHOUT other people would be the real trick...

But to address this rather complex, even perhaps spiritual issue, you simply say:

"It is immoral. It is slavery.

Additionally, it is morally wrong, and CONgress overstepped their authority when they passed a law forcing me to buy something."

(And here, I won't even remind you, okay, of all the auto insurance we've all had to buy since the seventies...Where's the outrage? The Reich-Wing Commentary? I tested this limit out once, striking a blow for Freedom, doncha know? I think I still have my SR-22 filing papers. "Oh, the Humanity!")

"What is next Dana, forcing me to buy a GM piece of crap? Or a Mopar one so Obama's union buddies can get more money?"

You see my dilemma here, Mr Freeoneday. I'm having to put up my own sterling prose and reasoning AND MEMORY, against your obvious passion. How can I win?

"Maybe they will next force me to pay for union pension systems that are bankrupt. the demorats have been discussing that and floated that trial balloon."

But why don't you CARE? Are you emotionally blunted in that brain area where we libs, um, care what happens with people we don't personally know? Do you actually not care what happens to anyone but yourself? Don't you like picnics and parades? There is a word for that, you know, but I'm not one to blithely call someone a sociopath...

Isn't there -- even in your slightly twisted frame of reference -- a place where you can still think that those auto workers were screwed over, when major portions of the pensions they'd worked all their lives for were cancelled out of their lives' equations? And doesn't that injustice bother you?

Or did you perhaps think they made too much in the first place? Upwards of thirty dollars an hour, I believe, making your car? (That feeling is called 'jealousy', Albee) But then, why haven't you said the same thing about the bonused CEOs? (That feeling's different -- that one's called 'envy').

And then you say that IF there is something you want to pay for, fine, but you don't want to have to pay for things you don't want to pay for, or something like that. That sounds like tax-revolt-just-plain-mad, to me -- but I agree. I want that too. I'm tired of paying for missiles and bullets. I want my taxes to go for water systems in the third world, and writing songs to spread AIDS awareness, and supporting respect for women in Africa. You pay for the missiles, that's fine.

Just remember to write it in, on the blank on your 1040, that that's what you want your money to be spent on. You really do read those things, and send the money where you tell them to. Oh, ********, you cry! They don't? They spend it on what they were going to do anyway? Auhh, Mom told me there would be days like this...

So it all comes down to money again, doesn't it? So is it really all right with you that the rich (who are NOT you or me, if percentages don't lie) get to take all the money you and I COULD be spending on health for everyone, on good schools, transit, public offices, art, concerts, festivals, summer activity programs?

But they do take it, you see; they do. It goes to them in tax advantages and breaks and loopholes, and you pay for it. It goes to them through the Military and the Secret and the Energy Budgets. And you pay for it all, as do I. Aren't you sick of THAT? Is this "outrage" at the libs' nascent programs simply a way to find some low-hanging fruit, rather than confronting -- and witholding your tax moneys from -- those you secretly envy, the rich businessmen?

I understand the conflict, but I say go for it. Good luck! Rebel! Freedom!


...and, oh yeah, "Lawyers for the FDA said so," and two-fifty, gets you a cup of coffee at Starbucks...
Posted by Lightning Joe
3rd Aug 2010
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RE: Death panels and other cheap ways to save money fast
I haven't read every word in every post; it doesn't take long to get the gist of some of these posts. But for those of you who decry the passage of the health care bill, claiming it was done against the wishes of the majority of Americans, didn't every creditable poll show that the majority wanted the public option? And that the health care bill would have been more popular if it contained the public option (and, of course, that would be more socialist than what was passed). The bill was over 2,000 pages long; very few people to this day know much of the details in the bill. But many people know all of the Republican negative slogans about the bill.

The Republicans very belatedly came up with a heal care reform ?proposal? but it would only have covered an additional 3 million people; that?s more or less within the margin of error (not to mention laughable)! The current leaders of the Republican party never have a solution to a problem that requires government involvement because that?s not acceptable to them; Government is never the solution; so they are stuck on stupid whenever that?s the only answer! happy I?ve never heard a cogent argument as to why a corporation (let?s just pick BP, for example! happy ) can do no wrong and government can?t do anything right.
Posted by GarryGR
3rd Aug 2010
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RE: Death panels and other cheap ways to save money fast
Here's what the public wants:

Washington Examiner
08/03/10 11:35 PM EDT

"Tonight?s biggest election blowout is not about any candidate, unless you want to count President Obama. In Missouri, 71 percent of the voters are backing a referendum requiring to state to protect its citizens from Obamacare?s requirement that they purchase health insurance."

Read more at the Washington Examiner: http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/blogs/beltway-confidential/tonights-primary-elections-99912049.html#ixzz0vcgonh2Z
Posted by mcmanuslive@...
4th Aug 2010
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RE: Death panels and other cheap ways to save money fast
Dan,
This series of responses to your blog seems much more balanced than those to many of your earlier submissions - which seemed more like shouting matches than debates. Poor Mr. Albee_Freeoneday and his fellow "Daniel Boone_wannabes" have been picked on, and picked over, sufficiently for the time being. The only thing that I would like to add to the discussion is to observe that hospice care in the British NHS is not mandatory or coercive as stated in the first reply ("Hates idiots") as that would be in violation of NHS legislation as well a violation of Human Rights. Although NHS does provide hospice care, it is mostly provided by charities such as Sue Ryder Foundation and MacMillan Foundation which are supported mainly by fundraising, donations and benefices. Also, any assertion about misdiagnoses being confined to, or in fact higher in, the NHS than elsewhere, is an oxymoron. I think your correspondent has been reading too much Dickens. We have lived here as expats for nearly 40 years and have been eternally grateful for the NHS. It is not perfect and papers, like the Telegraph (otherwise known as the "Torygraph") and the Daily Mail love to find and exploit any and all of its shortcomings. The fact is that it, covers everyone, provides medical care which is "free at the point of delivery" and does not bankrupt millions of people; and most of us (other than Daily Mail readers) are satisfied to pay enough taxes to pay for such provision. I grew up in the US, and lost a brother and a sister, largely because we could not afford proper medical care. Enough said.
Dr. Arthur R. Berg
Posted by a.berg
4th Aug 2010
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RE: Death panels and other cheap ways to save money fast
There are many cases that we in the US have cured by happening across them when the child or adult collapsed on US soil. They were diagnosed as terminal (not mis diagnosed, appropriately diagnosed, as terminal in Britain as the treatment was not financially available).

When they "died" on US soil they were rapidly resuscitated, air lifted to a first rate acute care hospital, operated on, salvaged and woke up to another 20 or so years of life. Much to their amazement.

They had accepted their diagnosis and prepared for death. They had no idea their conditions were treatable or that they should be looking for other options.

Needless to say, the hospital I worked for did their best to get England to pay for their citizen's care but it did not happen.
Posted by IMWeira
4th Aug 2010
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RE: Death panels and other cheap ways to save money fast
PS Dana Blankenhorn, Don't argue with jackasses. They won't get anymore work done and it wastes your time. The people you are trying to "educate" are not really the type of people who learn easily. If you want to change their mind, do the donkey training thing and offer them a treat. That usually gets them to vote for the democrats, so perhaps it will open their minds to your very well thought out columns.
Posted by IMWeira
4th Aug 2010
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RE: Death panels and other cheap ways to save money fast
Well Dr. Berg, aren't you the smug one.

The problem is, the "jackasses" and "donkeys" in the U.S. are not buying Obama's "treat". Yesterday in Missouri they rejected ObamaCare by a 71 to 29% margin.

When there is a true debate, when there is a real vote not tainted by bribes, the people of this great country reject socialism.
Posted by mcmanuslive@...
4th Aug 2010
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RE: Death panels and other cheap ways to save money fast
The Democratic & Republican parties agree on one thing; our health care delivery system has an unsustainable upward cost curve. As more and more people lose their health insurance, the shrinking pool of those who do, pay higher premiums, covering the costs to the health care system of those who don?t. What the current Republican leadership will not admit is that this problem can not be addressed without the heavy hand of government, i.e. government involvement. Witness their anemic proposal for health care reform; anemic in that it did nothing significant to address the core problems, cost and lack of coverage. For those who disagree, how about your ideas for addressing the problem?

As to the indirect inference that ?the American public? is against the health care legislation, with the implication that Republicans are more in sync with the voters than the Democrats, polls consistently show that voters view congress, including the Republicans, as inept. Midterm elections don?t prove much other than that many voters are, almost always, disillusioned with the first two years of any new administration (lack of progress on their particular important issues). This has more to do with many voters unrealistic views of what can be done in a democracy, where many viewpoints compete for ?dominance?, than a solid understanding of the issues. And it is always easier to demagogue an issue than to explain the complexities of an issue and the proposed solutions. The Republicans didn?t win the debate by putting forth a better solution; they did what the minority all to often does, Democrats included, they demagogued it to death! I?m a Democrat, but I was not at all happy with what the Democratic minority did during the Bush administration. In my opinion, the ? honorable minority party? is no longer ?honorable?, in practice.
Posted by GarryGR
4th Aug 2010
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mcmanuslive@... (38)
72% of the voters in the Missouri primaries were Republicans.
Surprise, they toed the party line. The reason is there were more
competitive races on that side.
Posted by DanaBlankenhorn
4th Aug 2010
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I'll go this far with you Dana; you're right on one point.
This entails hard choices.

This is true. However, here's the problem: Politicians have
never been good at hard choices.

If that was the case, Social Security would be fiscally sound, and
Freddie/Fannie never would have crashed.

If our "leaders" were unable to make the obvious and necessary
hard choices to save those relatively simple problems, it's
certain folly to believe that they are capable of doing any better
with a problem as huge, complex, and emotional as managing
health care for an entire nation.

BTW: You've done it again; speaking through your straw man for
me. I've never said there should be no "common pool". I think
"single payer" is inevitable, as bad as it is going to be. Please
stop telling me what I support. You clearly do not know.
Posted by JohnMcGrew@...
4th Aug 2010
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Why are we scared?
Because we've been paying attention to how well these ideas have
fared elsewhere in the world. The debate here brings me back to
my days in school, where I got to listen to professors compare the
very real shortcomings of America to the theoretical perfection of
socialism. It's as though real socialists places to compare to did not
exist.

And that is how you act today.
Posted by JohnMcGrew@...
4th Aug 2010
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RE: Death panels and other cheap ways to save money fast
72% of the voters in the Missouri primaries were Republicans.
Surprise, they toed the party line. The reason is there were more
competitive races on that side.

Well that's your "democracy" for you. Your side was so ambivalent about the health care issue, they didn't show up to defend more government intrusion into our lives.

Any other elections you want to nullify because your side didn't show up?
Posted by mcmanuslive@...
4th Aug 2010
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mcmanuslive@...(42)
The politics does not matter at the end of the day. The science
does. And the science is clear. We all need regular, preventive
health care. Call that the nanny state if you like. I guess you're right.

But rejecting the truth of health science won't make reality go your
way.
Posted by DanaBlankenhorn
5th Aug 2010
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