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EPA list identifies environmental criminals on the lam

By | December 6, 2010, 2:00 AM PST

I recently read that the first woman on the Environmental Protection Agency’s fugitives list was captured in the Dominican Republic and is now in custody awaiting extradition to the United States. And I thought: Who knew there were “wanted” posters for environmental criminals?

The EPA Fugitives list, created two years ago, identifies those sought by the agency’s Criminal Investigation Division. The list includes mug shots, brief case summaries and instructions on how to report information related to a fugitive’s identity.

Charges include the illegal smuggling of ozone depleting contraband; illegal transportation, storage and disposal of mercury contaminated soil; illegally importing cars that didn’t meet U.S. emissions standards; and illegal dumping of oil. Albania Deleon, for example, was convicted in Massachusetts for issuing hundreds of fraudulent training certificates from her certified asbestos training school. She fled the state two days before her sentencing in 2009 and was captured October 30, 2010.

To learn more about the fugitives list, I spoke with Daniel Horgan, acting director of the EPA’s Criminal Investigations Division. Excerpts of our conversation are below.

The EPA fugitives list was started in 2008. Was there one particular thing that convinced the agency of the need for such a list?

I think leading up to that period of time, we had a number of the subjects of our investigations who had become fugitives, so they were actually gone for extended periods of time. So we were aware of that from our own internal tracking process. After a couple apprehensions, it was discussed that it might be a good idea to establish a listing of fugitives. As we started to compile it, we noticed, when you put it all in one place, there was quite an assemblage.

Is it modeled after another agency’s fugitive’s list?

As we were designing it, we looked at a number of different agencies’ lists. Unlike the FBI, it’s not the 10 most wanted. We don’t rank them. It’s just a notification to the public that in our line of work we do have individuals who are at large, who we’re interested in locating .

When you say someone’s a fugitive, that doesn’t necessarily mean they’ve left the country; it just means they’re not where they’re supposed to be?

That’s right. They have been summoned to the court for a particular purpose—to answer charges, to stand trial or to be sentenced. So they’ve been officially notified of a legal proceeding they’ve been summoned to and they determined that they are not going to make that appearance.

So when they decide not to show up, we don’t really know where they are; they could just be someplace else. For example, Larkin Baggett [whose company allegedly dumped hazardous waste, without a permit, violating the federal Resource Conservation and Recovery Act; he was taken into custody in 2009] was found in the U.S.

And with the recent capture of Albania Deleon, what was involved in tracking her down?

Even though we don’t know an individual has left the United States, once a person is at large, or wanted, there is a process with the U.S. Attorneys Office to file certain forms with the Department of Justice and Interpol. Interpol will issue what is known as a Red Notice with an individual , so if they try to enter or leave the country with a passport, the agency interested in them would be notified.

In this particular case, we were notified that she was suspected of residing in the Dominican Republic, and efforts were undertaken to make the necessary international connections to have her arrested and returned to the United States. I believe she will be re-sentenced sometime in December.

What are the reasons people end up on your list?

We’re only interested in those people who are associated with criminally violating environmental statutes. It can include a lot of traditional criminal behavior. It doesn’t have to just be the illegal disposal of hazardous waste, but can include things such as money laundering and falsifying statements.

From your website, it looks like there are 16 on the list today. Even a former CEO?

Environmental crimes tend to be pigeonholed into what is thought of as white collar crimes. Often they are corporate crimes, but it’s a very broad-based type of crime. I guess if there was any type of way to characterize them, I would say it is more of an economic crime. It could be smaller companies in the early days of environmental crimes and investigation–companies that were illegally disposing of their waste. But as the program became more sophisticated, we were able to look at other types of environmental violations.

Tell me about your staff. Do they wear badges and carry guns?

We are full federal law enforcement individuals. We carry badges and guns, make arrests and execute search warrants. We currently we have approximately 210 agents nationwide.

Are they looking for crimes being committed or out looking or fugitives?

We don’t have a staff that actively pursues the fugitives. We wait for information to come back from a sighting. And once we receive information we undertake appropriate efforts to locate the individual and address it in a legal manner.

The working agents that are out there are located out of 10 area offices that are associated with the EPA regional offices. These agents are receiving information through the various avenues, which could be tips and complaints from the communities. Or it could be tips from other environmental agencies or public health agencies where people are going out and making inspections and contacting us about particularly egregious situations or suspected criminal behavior. And then the agents move forward with search warrants, undercover activities, sometimes surveillance. An awful lot of it includes documentation and interviewing witnesses.

How many prosecutions are there per year?

During fiscal year 2010, 198 defendants either pled guilty or were sentenced. During the same year, 289 were charged. Of the 289 cases, 87 percent included charges against at least one individual defendant, as opposed to a business or corporation. The charging of individuals, where warranted by the evidence, is important because the possibility of being sentenced to jail for an environmental crime provides significant deterrent effect.

What are some unusual or bizarre cases you’ve seen?

We do undertake the investigations for the protection of hazardous waste laws [Resource Conservation and Recovery Act], the Clean Air Act, Clean Water Act, in some cases, Superfund. They all have unique aspects to them. If you look at some of the cases we undertake, it stretches from the BP Alaska case from a couple years ago to situations like what Albania Deleon was convicted of—the issuance of false certificates that would allow individuals, primarily undocumented aliens, to work in a dangerous area with asbestos removal.

The other important aspect is that these are public health crimes. Really, how these things impact our communities are really the primary focus of the work we do.

In your opinion, are environmental criminals different than other run-of-the-mill criminals?

I think the impact on the community is an important component of an environmental criminal. The violations of an environmental crime can impact a large number of people without their really knowing it.

I remember Ira Reiner, who in the ‘80s was the District Attorney in Los Angeles and was an early proponent of prosecuting environmental crimes. He often referred to them as assaults. He said the only difference between an environmental assault and an assault on the street was that with an environmental assault you might not know you’ve been hit on the head for some time in the future. I think that’s one of the great issues related to our types of cases. If someone is falsifying discharge monitoring reports, and they’re falsifying the amounts of pollutants going into a waterway, that has the potential to impact a lot of people.

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Melanie D.G. Kaplan

About Melanie D.G. Kaplan

Melanie D.G. Kaplan is a contributing writer for SmartPlanet.

Melanie D.G. Kaplan

Melanie D.G. Kaplan

Contributing Writer

Melanie D.G. Kaplan is a regular contributor to The Washington Post and WebMD and has written for The New York Times, National Geographic Traveler and People. She holds degrees from Syracuse University and Columbia University's Graduate School of Journalism. She is based in Washington, D.C.

Follow her on Twitter.

Melanie D.G. Kaplan

Melanie D.G. Kaplan

In addition to working as a journalist, Melanie keeps the dog food fund flush with occasional consulting jobs. In the unusual event that her writing mentions a company or organization for which she has provided editorial services, she will disclose that fact. She will do the same should she cover any companies in which she holds investments.

She writes for SmartPlanet and is not an employee of CBS.

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0 Votes
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Criminal Justice
If you are looking a good Criminal Justice degree I strongly recommend "United Forensic College" there you can get the best training to solve crimes.
Posted by morrisliel6
6th Dec 2010
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Next: A "global warming" criminals list.
The list would include anyone in the world that contributes to global warming in any way.

Anyone who uses any petro-based fuel would automatically get on the list.
Posted by adornoe
6th Dec 2010
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ahh so: How would you classify the illegal aliens who are entering
the country from our southern border? They too are of Mexican or "Latin" or Hispanic origin.

Remember, they are "criminals" too once they enter the country illegally.
Posted by adornoe
6th Dec 2010
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RE: EPA list identifies environmental criminals on the lam
How about the PCB dumpers? Are they on the list?
Posted by Altotus
6th Dec 2010
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The real global warming criminals
Next: A "global warming" criminals list The list would include anyone in the world that contributes to global warming in any way. Anyone who uses any petro-based fuel would automatically get on the list.

No, the real global warming criminals are those who sow confusion and misinformation about what climate scientists are telling us. People such as Marc Marano, Anthony Watts, Christopher Monckton, and the people who finance them such as the Koch brothers. 50 years from now they will be reviled for their role in delaying action on global warming.
Posted by riverat1
6th Dec 2010
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RE: EPA list identifies environmental criminals on the lam
Actually undocumented aliens have committed no crime just by being here, nothing that would subject them to jail time or a fine. They are just subject to immediate deportation when they are caught. That is not a criminal offense.
Posted by riverat1
6th Dec 2010
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Re: Sharing Solar Power Generator Benefits
I just want to share the benefits of Solar Power Generator. You can
read them on sunpowerportcom
(Kindly give a dot between letter T and C. Thanks). You can have it
if you want to. Have some fun buddy. happy
Posted by bowking
7th Dec 2010
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riverat1: If lying through "science" were to be made a felony,
most of the people proliferating the lie about global warming would be in prison by now.

The only reason that the junk science still exists is because those people aren't being held accountable for lying.


BTW, like I said, you can't help yourself and you will jump into any discussion that even in the minutest sense, mentions your religion.
Posted by adornoe
7th Dec 2010
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riverat1: Illegal immigration is a crime...
http://www.americanpatrol.com/REFERENCE/isacrime.html

You might want to sound politically correct with your "undocumented aliens", but the fact remains that illegal aliens are committing a crime.
Posted by adornoe
7th Dec 2010
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RE: EPA list identifies environmental criminals on the lam
Adornoe,

It must incredibly frustrating to you that every time there has been any kind of official investigation or court action on climate science that climate scientists have never been found to lie. Of course they could be wrong but saying something you believe to be true is no a lie even if it is incorrect. For instance I don't believe you are lying when you make your posts, just that you are wrong about what you believe. Being wrong is not a crime, perjury is.

The reason that the "junk science" as you put it still exists is because nobody has brought forth any credible science that counters the current consensus science in any big way or even calls into question the major elements of climate science. I guess we could just throw it all out and consider it magic but that's not very useful in my view.

It must be a hellofa conspiracy though since they've managed to keep it going without anyone breaking rank for over 50 years. If they're that good them maybe I do want them running things.

The reason I respond so assiduously to you and your cohorts (most notably HatesIdiots and JohnMcGrew) is that I'm tired of seeing misinformation about global warming/climate change going unanswered. People need to know the reality of what's going on because in the long term the effects of global warming are likely to take the climate system to states that have never been seen by human beings before.

Regarding "illegal immigration", the only penalty is deportation and being barred from reentering the country. That's a civil penalty rather than a criminal one.
Posted by riverat1
7th Dec 2010
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riverat1: How can anybody be found "guilty" of anything when
everybody is too careful or afraid of bringing charges for fraud against "scientists" or the community of "scientists"?

Look, when the science hasn't really advanced beyond the set of lies which they told ups 10 or 15 or 20 years ago, and when we haven't really attempted to implement any big programs based on the faulty science, then it won't come up as a major case in any court. So, it's not a matter of the science having been won in the court of public or government opinion. The only reason that the "science" continues to exist is because there is a lot that can't be "disproved", just like it's difficult to disprove a negative. But, just like there are supporters for the "science", there are detractors from it too. As long as there is no "real" consensus amongst "all scientists" (not just the "warmers), then the "science" will continue to be, at best, on the "iffy" side. BTW, is "consensus" the way science should be conducted?.


Now, should the U.S. have border? Should it not be a crime for anybody to enter the country at will?

Should the U.S. not be a "sovereign" state, with citizenship rights reserved just for its "legal" citizens only?
Posted by adornoe
8th Dec 2010
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riverat1: Weren't the climate "scientists" found "guilty" of lying
in their "leaked" e-mails?

Yeah, nothing much came of the cases against them, but the e-mails spoke for themselves. Lying is lying, court case or not, convictions or not.
Posted by adornoe
8th Dec 2010
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RE: EPA list identifies environmental criminals on the lam
Adornoe, (#12)

Weren't the climate "scientists" found "guilty" of lying in their "leaked" e-mails?

Oh please! What specifically in those leaked emails do you think was a lie? Maybe you don't want to get specific because I'd just shoot you down.

(#11)

The science of climate studies has advanced mightily in the last 15 or 20 years. It's just that they figured out the big stuff back then and now they're working on details and refinement. To an outsider it might appear that it hasn't advanced much but outsiders seldom get down the the level of detail that scientists are working on now.

Everything is climate science is disprovable. It may be because of the nature of the science that the time frame necessary to disprove it is rather long on human time scales but if it's false it will eventually be disproved. Of course consensus is not the way to conduct science. In the end science is about describing the physical reality of the world. Consensus is just the part of the science that, in the absence of some new revelation, scientist agree on and so don't spend any time arguing about. It takes extraordinary evidence to break the consensus. Something like 97% of scientists specifically studying in the field agree that global warming is happening and that it is largely human caused. When do you get 97% of anybody agreeing on anything?

Regarding the "illegal immigrant" issue, I guess I put my humanity ahead of my patriotism. The world keeps getting more and more global and nations are becoming less important as time goes on. With the crises we are likely to see from global warming in the next 50-100 years there will be lots of people emigrating from areas that can no longer support them.

On a pragmatic level though, if you were able to deport all 12 million* undocumented aliens tomorrow it would deepen the recession making things even worse. The lose of the economic activity that those people generate would be devastating. And many of them are taking jobs that most US citizens would not do for the wages that employers are willing to pay. I grew up in a farm family so believe me, I know how back breaking and exhausting farm labor can be.

*12 million just used for the sake of argument.
Posted by riverat1
8th Dec 2010
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riverat1: Global warming "science", being shot down again, by scientists...
SPECIAL REPORT: More Than 1000 International Scientists Dissent Over Man-Made Global Warming Claims - Challenge UN IPCC & Gore

http://www.climatedepot.com/a/9035/SPECIAL-REPORT-More-Than-1000-International-Scientists-Dissent-Over-ManMade-Global-Warming-Claims--Challenge-UN-IPCC--Gore

More than 1000 dissenting scientists (updates previous 700 scientist report) from around the globe have now challenged man-made global warming claims made by the United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) and former Vice President Al Gore. This new 2010 320-page Climate Depot Special Report -- updated from 2007's groundbreaking U.S. Senate Report of over 400 scientists who voiced skepticism about the so-called global warming ?consensus? -- features the skeptical voices of over 1000 international scientists, including many current and former UN IPCC scientists , who have now turned against the UN IPCC.

"I view Climategate as science fraud, pure and simple," said noted Princeton Physicist Dr. Robert Austin shortly after the scandal broke.

Climategate prompted UN IPCC scientists to turn on each other. UN IPCC scientist Eduardo Zorita publicly declared that his Climategate colleagues Michael Mann and Phil Jones "should be barred from the IPCC process...They are not credible anymore."

South African UN scientist declared the UN IPCC a "worthless carcass" and noted IPCC chair Pachauri is in "disgrace". He also explained that the "fraudulent science continues to be exposed." Alexander, a former member of the UN Scientific and Technical Committee on Natural Disasters harshly critiqued the UN. "'I was subjected to vilification tactics at the time. I persisted. Now, at long last, my persistence has been rewarded...There is no believable evidence to support [the IPCC] claims. I rest my case!"

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Look, riverat1, why do you insist on defending a lie? There might indeed be a set of believable science points within the junk science, but the overarching fact is that, as a whole (not every detail), the science is mostly a fraud, intended as a massive tool for wealth redistribution from the rich countries to the poor.

Your attitude is somewhat like that of a religious fanatic that, when confronted with facts to the contrary, you'll defend your beliefs to the death. You remind me of the Muslim fanatics with your religion of "global warming".
Posted by adornoe
8th Dec 2010
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riverat1: More from that report; the jig is up!.
?We're not scientifically there yet. Despite what you may have heard in the media, there is nothing like a consensus of scientific opinion that this is a problem. Because there is natural variability in the weather, you cannot statistically know for another 150 years.? -- UN IPCC's Tom Tripp, a member of the UN IPCC since 2004 and listed as one of the lead authors and serves as the Director of Technical Services & Development for U.S. Magnesium.

?Any reasonable scientific analysis must conclude the basic theory wrong!!? -- NASA Scientist Dr. Leonard Weinstein who worked 35 years at the NASA Langley Research Center

?Please remain calm: The Earth will heal itself -- Climate is beyond our power to control...Earth doesn't care about governments or their legislation. You can't find much actual global warming in present-day weather observations. Climate change is a matter of geologic time, something that the earth routinely does on its own without asking anyone's permission or explaining itself.? -- Nobel Prize-Winning Stanford University Physicist Dr. Robert B. Laughlin, who won the Nobel Prize for physics in 1998, and was formerly a research scientist at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory.

?In essence, the jig is up. The whole thing is a fraud. And even the fraudsters that fudged data are admitting to temperature history that they used to say didn't happen...Perhaps what has doomed the Climategate fraudsters the most was their brazenness in fudging the data? -- Dr. Christopher J. Kobus, Associate Professor of Mechanical Engineering at Oakland University

?The energy mankind generates is so small compared to that overall energy budget that it simply cannot affect the climate...The planet's climate is doing its own thing, but we cannot pinpoint significant trends in changes to it because it dates back millions of years while the study of it began only recently. We are children of the Sun; we simply lack data to draw the proper conclusions.? -- Russian Scientist Dr. Anatoly Levitin

?Hundreds of billion dollars have been wasted with the attempt of imposing a Anthropogenic Global Warming (AGW) theory that is not supported by physical world evidences...AGW has been forcefully imposed by means of a barrage of scare stories and indoctrination that begins in the elementary school textbooks.? -- Brazilian Geologist Geraldo Lu?s Lino, who authored the 2009 book ?The Global Warming Fraud: How a Natural Phenomenon Was Converted into a False World Emergency.?

?I am ashamed of what climate science has become today,? The science ?community is relying on an inadequate model to blame CO2 and innocent citizens for global warming in order to generate funding and to gain attention. If this is what 'science' has become today, I, as a scientist, am ashamed...Science is too important for our society to be misused in the way it has been done within the Climate Science Community.? Swedish Climatologist Dr. Hans Jelbring,

?Those who call themselves 'Green planet advocates' should be arguing for a CO2- fertilized atmosphere, not a CO2-starved atmosphere...Diversity increases when the planet was warm AND had high CO2 atmospheric content...Al Gore's personal behavior supports a green planet - his enormous energy use with his 4 homes and his bizjet, does indeed help make the planet greener. Kudos, Al for doing your part to save the planet.? -- Renowned engineer and aviation/space pioneer Burt Rutan,

*********** Funny how that statement above applauds Al Gore, but for the opposite of Gore's thinking *****************

?Global warming is the central tenet of this new belief system in much the same way that the Resurrection is the central tenet of Christianity. Al Gore has taken a role corresponding to that of St Paul in proselytizing the new faith ...My skepticism about AGW arises from the fact that as a physicist who has worked in closely related areas, I know how poor the underlying science is. In effect the scientific method has been abandoned in this field.? -- Atmospheric Physicist Dr. John Reid

?We maintain there is no reason whatsoever to worry about man-made climate change, because there is no evidence whatsoever that such a thing is happening.? -- Greek Earth scientists Antonis Christofides and Nikos Mamassis of the National Technical University of Athens' Department of Water Resources and Environmental Engineering.
Posted by adornoe
8th Dec 2010
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Changing the subject?
Adornoe,

I ask you for specific examples of lies in the leaked emails from East Anglia University and you go off on an argument from authority rant. Have we switchedf to the IPCC as the bogeyman now? Bit it was interesting going down the list figuring out who the ones I didn't know about were.

A few quick comments:
I'd be interested to know what noted Princeton bio-physicist Dr. Robert Austin has to say about it today, a year later.
Dr. Eduardo Zorita is a respected paleoclimatologist in Europe but his comment doesn't say anything about the science in the IPCC AR4 report. Even if you ignored all of Michael Mann's and Phil Jones' work it wouldn't change the next report enough to matter.
Tom Tripp is a Metallurgical Engineer for US Magnesium and was an author in the IPCC AR4 Working Group 3 report. If you recall WG-1 is about the science of climate change, WG-2 is about the effects and WG-3 is about what we can do about it. I don't think he's particularly qualified to comment on the WG-1 report (but then, neither am I).
Dr. Leonard Weinstein is an Aerospace Engineer, again not particularly qualified although he has to know something about atmospheric phenomonon.
Quantum Physicist Dr. Robert Laughlin it right, the Earth will heal itself. But that happens on time scales that don't matter much to anyone alive today. I'm concerned about the world for my children and grandchildren.
Dr. Anatoly Levitin - "The energy mankind generates...". The energy generated and released into the environment by humans is miniscule compared to global warming. It's hardly a rounding error. It's the increase of CO2 in the atmosphere that is driving nearly all of it, not direct heat from human energy generation.

In the end I defer to the actual science as outlined in the IPCC AR4 WG-1 report. If someone puts a serious dent in the actual science I'll start to reconsider my position.
Posted by riverat1
8th Dec 2010
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riverat1: You're so predictable!
The only thing you're deferring to is a bunch of lies. People like you are hopeless and, like I said, you're just like the Taliban or a member of Al-Qaeda, who has been so thoroughly brainwashed that you've become impossible to "deprogram".

But, no matter, because, your "science" has been exposed for the fraud that it is and nothing much will come of it.

But, hey, there is still hope for you, as long as you're still alive.
Posted by adornoe
9th Dec 2010
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RE: EPA list identifies environmental criminals on the lam
You say they are lies but you have not presented any evidence that counters the claims. Evidence that explains the observed changes better than the currently accepted explanations. My conclusion is that you have decided they are lies because the obviously necessary things we should do to counteract the problem conflict with your economic/political worldview.

Time will tell what the truth of the matter is. Unfortunately buy the time it's all blatantly obvious to most people it may be too late to avoid catastrophic changes. Still, humans are intelligent (most of them anyway) and resourceful so I don't think we will go extinct any time soon. But it's likely to be a much poorer world we live in 200 years from now.

Over the past few years it's becoming more and more obvious that in the absence of significant changes in insolation that atmospheric CO2 is the major factor for what temperatures on the Earth will be. Everything else is secondary to CO2 in the present climate.
Posted by riverat1
9th Dec 2010
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riverat1: In spite of all the evidence to the contrary, you insist
that global warming "science" is truthful and will be vindicated in the future.

Then, you go an use the well-known and well-worn tactic of scaremongering which your side is also so well-known for using.

Unfortunately buy the time it's all blatantly obvious to most people it may be too late to avoid catastrophic changes.

That statement above is unprovable and all it represents is a tactic which scares people into listening because, well, they don't want to face catastrophe.

In fact, if it wasn't because of the scare tactics, chances are that your religion, aka: global warming junk science, would never have gotten beyond just a wish in the minds of the agenda driven "scientists".

BTW, hasn't the globe and life on it, endured and survived more "catastrophic" warming and cooling periods than those "predicted" by your "science"?

The fact is that, if we were to encounter the warming predicted by the junk science, that, it would be more beneficial than catastrophic. There would be more greenery, and more habitable land, and more agriculture, and more beach-front property around the world. Heck, I can't see any negatives.

But, unfortunately, since your "science" is nothing more than a lie, people will have to forget about their plans for warming period. Greenland won't really be "green" again, and we won't be able to go swimming in the Arctic. But, who knows, perhaps in another 200 million years, your "science" will turn out to be correct by accident. I'll have to have my body frozen when I die so I can be "revived" to enjoy that distant world in the future.
Posted by adornoe
10th Dec 2010
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RE: EPA list identifies environmental criminals on the lam
BTW, hasn't the globe and life on it, endured and survived more "catastrophic" warming and cooling periods than those "predicted" by your "science".

Yes, the planet has seen periods that were much warmer and colder than it is now, but never during the time that human civilization has existed. And seldom if ever has the transition to warmer (or colder) happened at the pace it currently is. At a minimum global warming will be costly for our civilization to adapt over the next couple hundred years. It probably would have been cheaper to prevent it in the first place. Worst case scenario is mass extinctions on land and in the oceans from acidification as well as warming. Agriculture is seriously disrupted. The food chain collapses leaving a planet able to support far fewer humans sometime in the 2100's than it does now. I'd call that catastrophic. But I don't think humans will go extinct* any time soon. We're an intelligent and adaptable species that will find a way to survive. The outcome will be somewhere between those extremes.

You paint a rosy picture but there's more than warmer temperatures that makes greenery and agriculture. Do you have any real science to back that up? And actually there would be less beachfront property. As oceans rise the land shrinks and the shoreline gets shorter.

If things keep going the way they are you won't have to wait 200 MY. Greenland could completely melt in as little as 500 years but probably more like 1,000 years.

* The thing that gives me the most concern for human extinction is some bio-lab releasing something that no one has immunity to.
Posted by riverat1
13th Dec 2010
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riverat1: You're still using scare tactics to try to make your points...
The fact is that, without the scare tactics, neither your nor the global warming "scientists" would've had an audience. That is the bottom line to the whole "junk" science debate; without the scaremongering, nobody would be wasting so much time and effort and money on the stupidity. Who knows how much more progress mankind could have made if those "junk" scientists had dedicated their time to more worthwhile research. Not that we don't need to study climate, but, we don't need to spend so much in resources and time on junk science.

BTW, if the oceans did rise, inevitably, there would be a lot more land areas/masses which would become more "agricultural", and new areas would have "beachfront" or "lakefront" properties. And, doubtless, there would be more greenery, including, perhaps, Greenland becoming green again, and Arctic lands becoming more "welcoming" to anybody that would wish to move there or at least visit there. The middle-ages, with the warming that the period is well-known for, was very productive for adventurers, like the Vikings and the Italians and the French and the Spanish and English. The warmer weather opened up more seas and more ocean lanes for travelers/adventurers. From that period of discovery, the modern world was born.

I'll bet that, if the Arctic circle were to become habitable, the we'd "discover" the bones of a lot of ancient life, like the dinosaurs and plant life, which would've inhabited those areas back when those areas were warmer.

And, hey, haven't you learned anything from that other discussion about the "scientific method" being dead? Everything being discussed there points at "global warming" science being the type that does not follow the scientific principles for research.
Posted by adornoe
14th Dec 2010
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riverat1: The Death Of A Myth; the junk science is being abandoned by its
former "supporters".

http://www.yankton.net/articles/2010/12/14/opinion/editorials/doc4d06eb0d93e8b430553672.txt

You need to move on with your life too.

Copenhagen was a failure and now Cancun is an even bigger failure.

But ultimately it comes down to this: given time, truth wins out. Eventually rational people realize that groupthink and demonizing your opponents as ?deniers? doesn?t count for evidence. They realize that a movement so freely changing names ? from Global Cooling to Global Warming to Climate Change to Global Climate Disruption ? might be more about a neo-Marxist pursuit of global governance than about saving polar bears.
Posted by adornoe
14th Dec 2010
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RE: EPA list identifies environmental criminals on the lam
BTW, if the oceans did rise, inevitably, there would be a lot more land areas/masses which would become more "agricultural", and new areas would have "beachfront" or "lakefront" properties.

You make a statement there but you have nothing to back it up with. Simple logic tells you if the water rises the area of land above the water shrinks. The shore may get longer in some bays and estuaries like SF Bay but over all it shrinks. How far inland would the shore move in Florida and the Gulf Coast with 10 feet of SLR? And what does rising sea level have to do with more agricultural land or lakefront property?

The last time all of Greenland was less than 75% covered by ice was millions of years ago. Before the Arctic lands become more welcoming the permafrost the covers much of it will have to melt and dry out. That will take hundreds of years minimum.

Even if the Arctic Circle gets warmer it still has little or no sunlight in winter and it will still get cold, just not quite as cold as it is now.

If you read the comments on the "scientific method" post you find most people including me are saying there's nothing wrong with the scientific method. Rather it is human failures that are the problem. And I don't think for a moment that climate scientists are less subject to failure than any other scientists. But with the major attention and the number of eyes looking at the problem it's pretty far fetched to think that current climate science orthodoxy is a result of outright fraud.

Copenhagen and Cancun are political failures, not scientific ones.

But ultimately it comes down to this: given time, truth wins out. Eventually rational people realize that groupthink and demonizing your opponents as "corrupt scientists" doesn't count for evidence.

FTFY

You need to move on with your life too.

You're just getting tired of me countering your misinformation and you want the floor to yourself. I'm not going to change my tune unless someone comes up with real scientific information that counters the current theory. All you've got is a bunch of conjecture with little to back it up.
Posted by riverat1
14th Dec 2010
0 Votes
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RE: EPA list identifies environmental criminals on the lam
Slight correction:

But ultimately it comes down to this: given time, truth wins out. Eventually rational people realize that groupthink and demonizing your opponents as "corrupt scientists" and their worshipful acolytes doesn't count for evidence.
Posted by riverat1
15th Dec 2010
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riverat1: Narrow it down: the truth usually wins out
and the frauds usually end up being exposed.

You lose!
Posted by adornoe
15th Dec 2010
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adornoe: Yes truth does win out.
In (hard) science it will always win out eventually because we are studying a reality that doesn't care about our subjective desires.

Climate scientists in general will never be exposed as frauds. Fraud is defined as intentional deception for personal gain. So it's not fraud if you believe what you are saying is true even if you turn out to be wrong. Good luck proving climate scientists guilty of fraud. It ain't going to happen.

Unfortunately the delay in seriously addressing global warming means we all lose. I take no satisfaction in being able to say "I told you so!" when it's too late to prevent things we could have prevented.
Posted by riverat1
15th Dec 2010
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riverat1: You're so much in denial that it's pathetic...
Climate scientists in general will never be exposed as frauds.

But, they have been exposed as frauds, and their "science" has been exposed as fraud.

You're so much in denial about what has happened, especially in the last 2 years, that it's a wonder that you're not classified as "loony".

Fraud is defined as intentional deception for personal gain.

And, that's exactly what it's been since the beginning, a fraud. But, it's not just a fraud for "personal gain", it's a fraud on a massive scale, intended for the transfer of wealth from the rich countries to the "poor".

Fraud is fraud, not matter what the scale or the intentions or the people involved.

But, like I said, the whole "science" is passing on to the scrap heap of history. People all over the world are turning their attention to more significant problems which really need solving. Fake science doesn't offer any solutions to any real problems.

You too need to move on with your life.
Posted by adornoe
16th Dec 2010
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adornoe: I feel pathos for you.
You are fighting a battle you'll never win. As time goes on and the physical evidence for global warming keeps getting stronger if you can't adjust your picture of reality to fit the real world you'll just become increasingly frustrated and bitter as you are more and more isolated by your intransigence.

But, they have been exposed as frauds, and their "science" has been exposed as fraud.

I'm sorry but no, that's just wishful thinking on your part. Nothing has happened in the past few years, including the released EAU emails, that invalidates climate science. The evidence just keeps getting stronger.

... intended for the transfer of wealth from the rich countries to the "poor".

Ah, now I think we get to the crux of your thinking. You're afraid someone is going to take your hard earned money away. But disliking the implications of what needs to be done about global warming is not an argument that invalidates climate science.

You too need to move on with your life.

Unfortunately for you a large part of my life now-a-days is dedicated to countering misinformation such as yours. The lives of all of our descendants depends on what we do about global warming.

But we've pretty much worn this thread out so maybe we should move on to our next clash on a new SmartPlanet post before they get tired and kick us both off the site.
Posted by riverat1
16th Dec 2010
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