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Why baseload power is doomed

By | March 28, 2012, 5:00 AM PDT

A persistent myth about the challenges of integrating renewable power into the grid is that because solar and wind are intermittent, grid operators need to maintain full generation capacity from “baseload” plants powered by coal and nuclear. Recent real-world data and research shows that not only is this not true, but that baseload capacity is fundamentally incompatible with renewables, and that as renewables provide a greater portion of the grid’s power, baseload generation will need to be phased out.

But before we get into the details, some background information is in order.

Types of power plants

“Baseload” power generators are typically large units that operate more or less continuously at 70 to 90 percent of their rated capacity, and do not shut down except for maintenance. These include nuclear, coal, and combined-cycle natural gas plants which capture and recycle the exhaust heat of traditional gas turbines. Coal and nuclear plants can take from one to three days to start up, and take a long time to shut down.

“Load-following” power generators can increase or reduce their output based upon demand, and typically run at 30 to 50 percent of capacity. They are typically traditional gas turbine units, and may be shut down on a daily or weekly basis as needed. Older coal plants, combined-cycle natural gas plants, and some nuclear plants can operate in a load-following mode, but their ability to do so is limited. For example, newer nuclear plants can cut output by as much as 20 percent in an hour, but need as much as eight hours to ramp back up to full capacity.

“Peaking units” typically run for a few hours at a time at low capacity factors when demand reaches unusually high peak levels, like in the middle of a hot summer day. These units are typically simple gas turbines.

The grid today

In the U.S., there are three main grids: one in the east, one in the west, and one in Texas. Some utilities are regulated while others are not, some are publicly owned while others are private, and although they are interconnected within the three main grids, they operate with a certain amount of autonomy. Grid power comes from about 5,800 utility-scale power plants, comprising some 18,000 generating units. A patchwork quilt of agencies with overlapping jurisdictions regulate the grid, including Federal Energy Regulatory Commission (FERC) and the North American Electricity Reliability Corporation (NERC) at the federal level, a range of Regional Transmission Operators (RTO) and Independent System Operators (ISO) at the regional level, and Public Utility Commissions (PUC) at the state level. Ten major RTOs and ISOs serve about two-thirds of consumers in the U.S. and more than half in Canada, with the remainder served by smaller regional operators.

The grid’s architecture developed in a fairly ad-hoc way. As the country was built up, more generation capacity was added, and the grid was extended. Technologically speaking, most of the grid is old and “dumb”: Power gets generated somewhere, and transmitted somewhere else, but there is very little in the way of sensors, storage buffers, switches, or security mechanisms along the way. It’s more like plumbing than an iPhone. This is why it was possible for one overloaded transmission line in Ohio take down much of the grid in Ontario, the Northeast and the Midwest in the blackout of August 14, 2003.

Grid operators have one overriding, fearsome task: They must maintain enough supply from this very complex system, within a narrow range of frequencies and voltages, to meet constantly fluctuating demand at all times. Therefore they tend to be risk-averse, preferring to stick with what they know to be reliable, and avoiding innovation.

Enter renewables

Before the advent of renewables, generating power was a pretty straightforward task: When demand increased, you just added more fuel to an engine. With renewables, the task is reversed: The engines (wind turbines and solar collectors) ramp up and down of their own accord, and grid operators must adjust to accommodate their output.

The growth of renewables in the U.S. has been driven primarily by state Renewable Portfolio Standards (RPS) requiring a certain percentage of power to be generated from renewables by a certain date. According to an April 2011 MIT report just released this month, 29 states have RPS mandates which typically require 15 to 25 percent renewables by 2015 to 2025. Many of these states mandate that grid operators give the renewably-generated power priority, so when wind generation spikes, for example, they must ramp down other generating units. In other areas of the U.S. and in parts of Europe, operators may instead curtail peak production from renewables to accommodate their baseload generation—for example, forcing a wind farm operator to furl their blades or apply brakes to their turbines.

The baseload fallacy

The notion that renewables cannot provide baseload power is really an artifact of the way the grid and its regulators have evolved. If all generators were able to ramp up and down on demand, and if grid operators were able to predict reliably when and where the sun would be shining and the wind would be blowing, accommodating any amount of power from renewables would be no problem.

A 2010 study called “The Base Load Fallacy” by Australian researcher Dr. Mark Diesendorf, an expert on integrating wind into power grids, fingers the “operational inflexibility of base-load power stations” as the main obstacle to further integration of renewables. “The renewable electricity system could be just as reliable as the dirty, fossil-fuelled system that it replaces,” he observes, if demand were more efficient and intelligent, and supply were made up of a wide variety of renewable sources plus a small amount of gas-fired capacity to cover the peaks. The perpetrators of the baseload fallacy, he argues, are mainly the industries who benefit from the status quo: coal, oil and gas companies, the nuclear industry, power generators, and industries who depend on them like aluminum and cement manufacturers.

Claims that renewables could never generate more than a few percent of grid power without taking down the grid have been given the lie by the real-world experience of areas that deliberately adapted their grids.

The best example in the U.S. is Texas. By virtue of having its own grid (technically, an “interconnection”), it is generally outside the purview of federal regulation by FERC. The entire grid is operated by a single ISO, ERCOT, so it has a lot of control over its generation mix and grid planning. Texas decided long ago to pursue its wind potential vigorously, and now has the largest installed wind capacity in the States at over 10 gigawatts (GW).

On March 7, ERCOT used a record 7,599 MW of wind power, constituting 22 percent of the load and representing over 77 percent of its nameplate wind capacity. The previous day it had met 24 percent of the load with wind. Baseload proponents had said that such levels of integration were flatly impossible. But ERCOT had made it possible with the help of a new modeling tool that analyzes real-time conditions every half-hour, giving grid technicians greater ability to match generation with demand and control transmission more discretely. The National Renewable Energy Laboratory has found that if other grid operators adopted similar tools, over one third of U.S. power could be generated from renewables.

All that ERCOT needed to accommodate more wind power was some sensors, a better flow of information, and better modeling tools. As the MIT report notes, the hardware to provide better grid information already exists, but few operators have employed it in their control and dispatch operations. The obstacle is not technology, but “the industry’s culture of resistance to new and experimental projects.”

That’s not a problem for China, however. The MIT report mentions that China is piloting a program that will allow it to monitor the national grid in real-time and control it automatically. The system eventually could allow China’s grid to uptake a far greater percentage of renewably-generated power than the antiquated and obsolete U.S. grid can, although the former is still the world’s top consumer of coal for power generation.

Another 2010 study by the German Renewable Energies Agency turned conventional baseload logic on its head, finding that due to their relatively inflexible ability to adjust to changing demand, “nuclear power plants are incompatible with renewable energies.” To meet forecasted wind production in Germany, conventional baseload operation would be cut in half by 2020, assuming renewable generation continues to enjoy priority dispatch. As renewables gradually replace conventional baseload capacity, only more flexible gas generators that can operate at under 50 percent of their capacity will still have a role to play.

The European example

Europe serves as another model of why good grid planning and management are key to integrating renewables into the grid. If baseload proponents were correct, then we would expect the countries with the highest levels of renewable penetration to have the most trouble in managing their grids, but the reality is quite the opposite.

A comprehensive new report on renewables integration by European consultancy eclareon GmbH surveyed the policies and grid functions of the 27 member states of the European Union, and found that “large quantities [of renewable generation] can be effectively managed on the grid.” Countries that planned for adequate grid capacity generally didn’t have a problem with accommodating renewables, and unsurprisingly, those are the same countries that have pushed for more renewable generation.

Solar and wind generation as a percentage of electricity consumption in 27 European Union countries in 2010 (first bar) and 2020 (second bar). Grid integration designated by color: green = positive, yellow = neutral, red = negative. Source: RES Integration Final Report, eclareon GmbH.

Countries where the share of renewable power is greatest—Germany, Denmark, Spain, Ireland, and Portugal—offer “positive conditions for grid operations,” although some barriers to integration were identified, including the potential for curtailment in Germany, challenges to priority dispatching in Ireland, and strict distribution parameters in Portugal. Identified barriers for grid development in those countries revolve around public policy issues, permitting, regulatory regimes, cost distribution, and the obligation (or lack thereof) of grid operators to beef up their grids to accommodate more renewable power.

Ripe for innovation

The real issues around the integration of renewables into the grid have to do with human arrangements, not technology. As the MIT report concluded, “There is a clear need for a statement on national goals for the electricity sector to streamline the US regulatory structure, which currently is complex and fragmented.” We need smart policy, and an intelligent approach to planning the grid of the future that is not simply beholden to the vested interests of the status quo.

This will run directly at odds with the free-market ideologies that have brought us this far. As the EU project THINK observed, “the main shortcomings of the conventional regulatory framework are that grid companies have disincentives to innovate.” A firm regulatory hand, like that in the most renewably-powered countries of Europe, will be necessary to integrate more power from solar and wind onto the grid.

Renewables should be able to meet at least 20 percent of electricity demand without disrupting the grid just about anywhere in the world with good grid planning and management. As geothermal and marine power technologies mature, they will become a much less intermittent, natural substitute for the baseload technologies of the past. A host of other technologies will even out the bumps in renewable generation by adding storage (batteries for distributed storage, and pumped hydro and solar thermal for utility scale); increasing the connections between grids (allowing better transmission between sunny and cloudy, or windy and still areas); and transitioning to on-demand natural gas-fired peaking generators. Over the next decade, the current assumptions about the need for traditional baseload capacity will begin to fade as new storage, interconnection, and smart grid management strategies come into play, and ultimately, a combination of these technologies might raise the limit on renewables to 100 percent.

The attachment to our antiquated architecture of power generation and grid management is simply a failure of imagination and innovation. Those who benefit from its arrangement today hold it up in too-precious reverence, not unlike the those who, one hundred years ago, protested the banning of the ancient Chinese practice of foot-binding depicted in the photo at top. It may be beautiful to them, but to those with modern sensibilities, it’s an ugly, even grotesque fetish that should be consigned to the dust bin of history, and one that one hundred years from now will seem unbearably dumb, quaint, and cruel. The problem is not that the feet are too big; it’s that the shoes are too small.

Photo: Feet of Chinese woman, bound, compared with tea cup and American woman’s shoe, World War 1 era. (otisarchives/Flickr)

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Chris Nelder

About Chris Nelder

Chris Nelder is a columnist for SmartPlanet.

Chris Nelder

Chris Nelder

Columnist, Energy

Chris Nelder is an energy analyst and consultant who has written about energy and investing for more than a decade. He is the author of two books on energy and investing, Profit from the Peak and Investing in Renewable Energy, and has appeared on BBC TV, Fox Business, CNN national radio, Australian Broadcasting Corp., CBS radio and France 24. He is based in California.

Follow him on Twitter.

Chris Nelder

Chris Nelder

Chris may or may not have financial holdings in the companies he writes about at the time of publication, as he is an active investor and trader in equities and ETFs. He also occasionally travels at the expense of companies or their press relations agencies in order to report on a company or industry event related to it. Chris prominently discloses this information when appropriate. These relationships have no influence on his coverage. Companies he covers do not get to review columns in advance, or select or reject topics.

He writes for SmartPlanet, but is not an employee of CBS.

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+3 Votes
+ -
Bullfeathers
If we had bacon we'd have some bacon and eggs, if we had some eggs.
Posted by robertbirks
28th Mar 2012
0 Votes
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renewables
I've heard this kind of hyper-optimistic tripe before, and I don't believe it any better today than 10 years ago. Base-load power is here to stay, because the sun doesn't shine and the wind doesn't blow all the time. At best, renewables can be a supplement, but no one is willing to pave the country with photocells or bird-destroying wind turbines to the extent necessary, and we don't have the $$ for it anyway, since these renewables cost 3 - 5x more than fossil-fuel plants.
Posted by Starman35
28th Mar 2012
+2 Votes
+ -
yep, renewables
Two things that put a time-line on your statement: advances in solar and wind tech (getting cheaper and safer all the time), and advances in battery tech (look up liquid battery).

http://www.technologyreview.com/energy/22116/

http://econews.com.au/news-to-sustain-our-world/eco-whisper-launches-quiet-wind-turbine-revolution/
http://www.treehugger.com/corporate-responsibility/stormblade-the-first-truly-quiet-residential-wind-turbine.html
http://www.globeinnovator.com/2012/quiet-wind-turbines-keep-neighbours-happy/1984/

http://www.digitaltrends.com/green-technology/3d-solar-panels-can-produce-20-times-more-energy-than-flat-panels/
http://www.yaledailynews.com/news/2012/mar/28/connecticut-wins-grant-for-solar-panel-research/
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/sunpower-announces-world-record-efficiency-solar-cell-now-in-commercial-production-2012-03-27

http://www.mlive.com/environment/index.ssf/2012/03/new_solar_panel_technology_cap.html

And a note on Solar Panel cost. My grandfather has purchased a set of three solar panels for his property. He lives in Olympia, WA. He's had them for a few years, and has been revising his calculations as they run. He's found that they will pay for themselves about a year before the end of their optimal lifespan. And these are not top of the line solar panels, nor in an optimal latitude or climate.

The evidence is mounting against your argument, and it is piling higher and higher. Perhaps you should do some research and revise your position. It's good to be skeptical, but it's good to be an up-to-date, informed skeptic.
Posted by grassdogstudio
Updated - 28th Mar 2012
+7 Votes
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You clearly didn't understand what was being said
The current system uses base-load generators to provide base-load power. But base-load generators can't increase or decrease their generating capacity very well. Therefore, we also have load-following and peaking generators as well. But these systems come on line or adjust according to load.

In the renewable system Chris is talking about, we don't just adjust for load, but also for supply. Renewables are able to supply 20% of the load, but they do so irregularly. To accommodate this, more load-following and more peaking generators are thus required. Combined together, these components replace the base-load generators.

What this means is that instead of building that new nuke, we build a lot of wind turbines, and a few natural big gas turbine plants. If the wind doesn't blow, or doesn't blow enough, the natural gas turbines kick in to deliver power. This example is over-simplified, but it should get across the idea. Instead of big base-load plants, we upscale the kind of systems the off-griders use.

But on a larger scale, we can expect more and more power to be coming from increasingly small-scale decentralized sources. If you look at this talk http://www.smartplanet.com/video/three-green-technologies-set-to-transform-energy/6353505, the speaker talks about more and more people installing PV systems on their homes.

As those homes provide power to themselves and excess to the grid, the "base-load" required decreases. Sure, the sun doesn't always shine, but when it doesn't, a base-load generator will be no good for providing power to these homes. A load-following or peaking generator will be what is needed. At some point, the base-load decreases to the point where it doesn't make a lot of sense to have huge base-load generators. If base-load generators remain, they become smaller and less concentrated. The switch to renewables means fewer base-load generators and more load-following and peaking generators.
Posted by mheartwood
28th Mar 2012
0 Votes
+ -
Exactly.
Thanks Marie.
Posted by Chris Nelder
28th Mar 2012
+1 Vote
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Distributed energy is a game-changer
How much copper wire links homes, businesses, manufacturing plants and health-care facilities together is a labyrinth of electrical nodes? The more nodes and wires needed the more dependent we become on the 'system'. Distributed power generation is the new kid on the block (for several years now) that promises to reduce dependency on central load generators and the one-way transmission of power. The sun delivers about 4kWh of electricity per Meter Squared daily in most parts of the lower 49th with higher power/area in the south-west. The sun has been around a long time and no one I know can recall the last time it didn't rise above the horizon at dawn. I figure that we have an opportunity to use that free renewable source when we need it most - during the day-light hours, and perhaps use a saving bank - battery - to carry "most electricity users" through the night. Industrial and institutional users that operate 24x7x365 can follow the same program with supplementary gas co-generation (Combined Heat/Cool & Power) with UPS and battery banks. The point is that we have lots of copper used to transmit power long-distances and about 40% of the power from central generation plants to the end-user is lost in heat or other resistance within these copper (and aluminum) cables. The closer we generate clean renewable power to the load source the lower the electrical transmission loss. And eventually - sooner than most think - the cost per kilowatt hour of electricity from renewable sources will compete across the board with all other non-renewable sources - provided that all costs are counted.
Posted by bob@...
28th Mar 2012
+2 Votes
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baseload myths
Only partly correct.
Combined-cycle gas generators are actually capable of rapid ramp-up/down but because they have a higher capital cost (and until recently NG was expensive compared to alternatives) they are only constructed on a similar basis to nuclear: ie. when the nearly full output can be contracted for its lifespan. In the future this may not be true for several reasons but also because a CCGT plant may be combined with a solar-thermal plant (and as soon as there is proper costing of fuels, ie. a carbon price, the economics of these things transform). CCGT has the highest thermal efficiency of anything except for nuclear, and if co-gen is included, even better.

By the way nuclear can be made partially load-following as the French do--it actually shows one of the weaknesses of over-reliance (85%) on a nuclear grid, ie. there only choice is to purchase power from neighbours at what is by default the peak rate (hence they force their nukes to load-follow; obviously only easily done with unitary state control).

Also the article states "renewables should be able to meet at least 20 percent of electricity demand without disrupting the grid" but that is an old concept from the limits of wind-power (and which even today are not really true): it is not true for a mix of wind and solar, not to mention future ocean/tidal and geothermal. As it happens wind and solar peak delivery times tend to be complimentary so together they can supply a lot more than 20%. Ocean and geothermal are much more predictable. Germany is already at 20% and is planning (in a $260 billion program) for much much higher.

A big unexpected result of a lot of renewable power selling to the grid at peak times is the merit order effect on the baseload suppliers: it is killing them since their economic model depends on them selling their power (baseload or not) for much more at peak times. This is actually the cause of the old generators problem in Germany and their agitation to limit renewable input.

Not only do some renewables exploit this factor but so do battery or any stored power system: so when people look at cost of batteries and average cost of grid power they are looking at the wrong things. It is peak power that the power arbitrageurs are looking at and very large-scale battery installation (even at today's less than optimal technology); obviously this works well with renewables such as wind which often produces power which cannot be sold to the grid but ironically they can also buy cheap power from the baseload producers at off-peak times. We won't even delve into the role of fuel cells that may have a role in both (ie. generation and storage).

Another effect of distributed renewables, which is being seen even with just today's (expensive) roof-top solar-pv, is that it reduces the need for very expensive grid upgrades. The bigger the country the bigger the saving, so that even in Australia it has been estimated that up to $11 billion of the $55 billion planned grid upgrading over the next ten years of so, could be avoided.

Finally I agree with bob@. We are just beginning to see some of the complex effects of large scale renewables and finding there are some nice surprises.
Posted by rhodez
29th Mar 2012
+1 Vote
+ -
Excellent points
@rhodez, thanks for the informed and on-topic comments. I agree on all counts, and would have included many of your points but for space constraints. I restricted myself to discussing utility-scale power generation here, but you are quite right that very little in the way of grid upgrades is needed to accommodate rooftop PV generation. j
Posted by Chris Nelder
29th Mar 2012
0 Votes
+ -
Base-load and the future of grid power
GOOD comment! and realistic analysis to a most complex and difficult enigma!
The reliability of 100% backup, both in trained operators immediately available, and equipment in fully functioning operational standby, COSTLY!
Thus, the ongoing need for those base-load units, which do this on a cost efficient basis...
Posted by NuPowerProf
Updated - 2nd Aug
+3 Votes
+ -
Even Bill gates thought the Internet was a novelty at one time - c.1997
Know what? I think it wise to avoid unsustainable energy habits. One time we thought the horse and buggy was sufficient and the new Wright Brothers invention was of no use - until the war. It seems to me that there are two camps of people. One that hang onto old technology and ways of thinking and those who are open-minded to look deeper and beyond the next 10-25 years. Fact is that fossil fuels are not sustainable. And that is not necessarily because they 'run-out'. It has more to do with the margin cost of finding affordable sources of fossil fuels and the impact that has on the economy. I never forgot an interview on 60 Minutes with the late Shah of Iran. He told the interviewer that we were all stupid for burning oil for fuel when oil offered much more value when processed in pharmaceutical, food, lubricant, plastics and other industries. Fact is that global warming isn't caused by using renewable energy. It is because we burn fossil fuels. Unless you have a solution for global warming and what to do with nuclear waste - and a sure-bet safety standard for nuclear shut-down before disaster hits, think about the facts and avoid short-run high-risk thinking in a box. Certainly, humans are capable of more than following bad practice? Others support the oil-industrial complex.
Posted by bob@...
28th Mar 2012
+2 Votes
+ -
Nice Piece
There is nothing in your piece that proves that we can operate without some level of baseload power, as a risk management tool, if nothing else. The other problem with not having a baseload power element in the architecture is that you must build out vastly more renewable infrastructure to mitigate against the higher risk of shortfall in generative power that are associated with renewables.

I take issue with this statement: "There is a clear need for a statement on national goals for the electricity sector to streamline the US regulatory structure, which currently is complex and fragmented." This statement flatly contradicts your example of ERCOT and Texas. Texas is able to have a well diversified mix of generative capacity precisely because it is not coerced into participating in an interstate or national regulatory scheme.

I appreciate the way you did give credence to human arrangements; that is one element that has contributed to Texas' success in renewables as Texan political, regulatory and business culture is driven by an ethos of "get her done". This is not the case in other states where you see a high degree of advocacy for renewables, but little actual work.
Posted by Jardinero1
Updated - 28th Mar 2012
+1 Vote
+ -
You missed it then.
The renewable electricity system could be just as reliable as the dirty, fossil-fuelled system that it replaces, he observes, if demand were more efficient and intelligent, and supply were made up of a wide variety of renewable sources plus a small amount of gas-fired capacity to cover the peaks.

We can get rid of the "baseload" paradigm if our system was more "efficient and intelligent", and by "intelligent" he means that the utilities or regulating agencies would have the power and ability to cut off your use of power if and when the "renewable" supply was insufficient to meet unregulated demand.

This means no A/C for you on that hot, August afternoon. Sorry.

I'm not saying this is desirable, and that's why they don't come right out and say it. But this is what they are really talking about.

This reminds me of one of Steve Jobs final missions; their new "spaceship" headquarters in Silicon Valley. It's going to have its own natural gas powered generating facility. Why? The fanboys thought it was some sort of "green" statement Steve was trying to make, but that's hardly the case. It's because Steve was a well-connected, bright guy and he saw the future: The "smart grid" means unreliable power.

My guess is that if these people get their way, a lot of us will be buying our own generators very soon. How "smart" or "green" will that be?
Posted by JohnMcGrew@...
Updated - 28th Mar 2012
-1 Votes
+ -
Batteries
Try some.
Posted by grassdogstudio
28th Mar 2012
0 Votes
+ -
Unfortunately...
...they are very expensive, toxic and hold a limited amount of energy. It would take an auto parts store worth of batteries just to run your A/C for a meaningful period of time. Like I said above, Steve Job's new HQ will not be running on batteries. And he's a guy who knew far more about batteries than the average guy.
Posted by JohnMcGrew@...
Updated - 28th Mar 2012
0 Votes
+ -
Batteries and UPS
What's the difference between a battery and a UPS? Did Apple's HQ run its IT systems without a UPS? I don't think so. I do know that I would not recommend car batteries - sealed or otherwise - for battery storage for non-auto electricity service. There are more efficient and longer lasting, deep-discharge longer lasting (8- 12 yrs) batteries specifically designed for off-grid electricity storage. A recent quote I received for a 48v 750ah system - 12 deep-discharge batteries, cost about $285 each or ~$3,500. These batteries would store sufficient electricity for a typical home for three days independence - if the sun didn't shine and the wind didn't blow. Newer technology batteries offer promising energy density that remains to be seen on the market at lower price/energy price points.
One solution to the battery sizing challenge is to first consider conservation. Energy-star appliances and good conservation practice - shut those lights off when not in use, will go a long way in solving our energy demand-supply problems - no matter fossil or renewable fuel sources.
Posted by bob@...
28th Mar 2012
0 Votes
+ -
I think you're missing the point.
Batteries are not efficient enough, and they are cycle & time limited. (they wear out) If that wasn't the case, electric cars would not be such a challenge.

Oh, and there's the heat loss issue: Much of the energy required to charge and discharge batteries is lost to heat. Multiply this times umpteen-hundred-thousand installations and you start to erase your efficiency gains made elsewhere.

My guess is that Apple, like most modern facilities, currently has battery-UPS for short-term power on servers and diesel generators on stand-by for critical systems. These systems are not meant to run all systems as a complete replacement for the loss of grid power. And they are not designed or intended to be used on a regular basis.

Apple's new HQ will be totally powered by natural gas should the grid go down, and is being designed to be used indefinitely at regular intervals.

And again, why is it that supposedly genius forward-thinkers like Steve Jobs opt for fossil fuel backup supplies for their own companies instead of these other supposed solutions?
Posted by JohnMcGrew@...
Updated - 31st Mar 2012
0 Votes
+ -
Batteries...and their future
Recently I completed a 5 year work period at Los Alamos Lab. A very enlightening experience I might add. Lots of VERY bright folks there working on most of these problems. Their battery work I found most interesting. Their approach was to address the energy density per pound problem, specifically to help mobile electric needs. The approach taken lay in Nano-technologies. Batteries' chemistry works on the surface of the plates, and the plate surface area is the key. Thus the carbon nano-tube approach, coating with plate material at the molecular level, and amplifying their area by huge orders of magnitude, with little or no increase in weight or size. This increases both Amp-Hour capacity and their usage for longer periods between recharging. This technology when fully developed - their estimate was 10 years to production availability- these could also increase large battery capacities. Since trains run diesel-electric motors, could you see electric battery-powered engines without diesel generators?
Posted by NuPowerProf
Updated - 2nd Aug
0 Votes
+ -
Batteries don't have to be constrained by these problems
Battery technology has been advancing steadily in the past few decades. There is currently considerable money going into their R&D. Recently (see my link list in a reply above) someone came up with liquid cell batteries that can be scaled up to grid bearing size, run hot, and be made from common elements.

I'm not saying we can do this now, but we can definitely strive for it within our lifetimes, if not the next couple of decades.
Posted by grassdogstudio
28th Mar 2012
0 Votes
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Lithium is not toxic.
it's also the 25th most abundant element on earth and one of the most abundant salts in sea water. They are building desalination plants all over the place now so it could be cheap soon.
Posted by shaunehunter
28th Mar 2012
+2 Votes
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They are really toxic
What do I with these toxic batteries when I am through with them?
Posted by Jardinero1
28th Mar 2012
+2 Votes
+ -
Recycle.
Try it some time.
Posted by gork platter
28th Mar 2012
+1 Vote
+ -
That's your answer...
...to a problem that shouldn't exist in the first place? Ladies and gentlemen, I present the logic of the future. Enjoy.
Posted by JohnMcGrew@...
Updated - 28th Mar 2012
+1 Vote
+ -
Recycle them
Batteries have been recycled for many years now. Some governments mandate strict rules on recycling batteries. We pay more for batteries in those jurisdictions that require recycling (and additional costs) of batteries. Toxicity is over-stated. There are toxic elements in lead but the proper handling of batteries in best practice recycling reduces the chance of injury from toxic substances. I would rather be engaged in recycling batteries than spent nuclear fuel - though the money is likely very much higher to recycle and bury spent nuclear fuel bundles than battery recycling.
Posted by bob@...
28th Mar 2012
0 Votes
+ -
So's Nuclear and Coal
The batteries I'm talking about are not nearly that toxic, and YOU don't have to do anything with them. They'd be handled at the state level (yeah, I know, look at their nuclear record...). Please see my link list above. First link in the list. Liquid cell batteries. They look quite promising.
Posted by grassdogstudio
28th Mar 2012
+1 Vote
+ -
Case on Point: Condo Apartment Building with Common Energy Meter
My wife and I owned a condo that we lived in. The common element fees were included in our monthly condominium management fee. We had about 25% of the 132 units owned by investors who rented their apartments to tenants. Since we had a common meter and no one had a meeter in their apartments to calculate their energy and water usage no one found out the true costs of energy and water unless there was a flyer under our doors or at the annual condo general meeting. The long and short was that residents consumed more energy and water because they focused only on their monthly condo fee which was set annually and didn't think that by conserving energy/water that "one-for-all" and "all-for-one" would reduce our consumption and costs. It even got worse for tenants who were residents of absentee landlord apartments. These tenants only focused on the rent they paid and the riser in their annual renewable rental agreement. Consequently, the resident owners who were clued into conservation to reduce costs were at odds with absentee owners who were only concerned about having good long-term paying tenants that would pay-down the mortgage. The moral of this story is that if you don't feel the pain immediately you eventually will. Same with our profligate consumption of fossil fuels. Some think that natural gas and coal are cheap compared to renewable energy and that technology for renewable energy generators are prohibitive and will remain so. Eventually we all pay the price of short-sighted thinking and missing the forest for the trees. Just like our former condo owners who consumed energy and water based on this year's fixed condo fee calculated from last year's energy budget, we eventually discovered that, guess what, we over-spent our energy and water budget and this year's condo fees are going up 5% (or so). And if you understand the real estate value of condo properties the monthly condo fee has an inverse relationship with the value of the condo. The higher the condo fee the lower (or smaller increase in hot markets) the value of your condo - all else being equal.
Posted by bob@...
28th Mar 2012
+5 Votes
+ -
That's called "the tragedy of the commons".
Since nobody is directly or wholly responsible for their personal consumption, they don't care or think at all about it. Problem is, neither does anyone else and they all pay in the end. Punished the most are those who do make an effort, and yet still get to pay for those who don't.

If you think your condo's energy bill was bad, just wait until all of health care is fully socialized. Exact same problem.
Posted by JohnMcGrew@...
Updated - 29th Mar 2012
0 Votes
+ -
Generate your own power
"This means no A/C for you on that hot, August afternoon. Sorry."

If you've got solar PV on your roof you can run your A/C off of that on a hot August afternoon rather than depending on the grid.
Posted by riverat1
24th Apr 2012
0 Votes
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Dream on...
We can talk about renewables all day long, but we all know that natural gas is our future. It's relatively clean, abundant, and by far cheaper and reliable than any renewable... Or we can build nukes...
Posted by Johanespark
28th Mar 2012
0 Votes
+ -
Nukes are a great idea
But what to do with the spent fuel?

I live 40 miles from (and downwind of!) the Savannah River Site. The consequences of a major accident or terrorist incident there would not affect a large percentage of the US population, but would be locally devastating.

And peaches might get real expensive for a few thousand years...
Posted by NickNielsen
28th Mar 2012
+1 Vote
+ -
Spent Fuel
is really just waiting to be re-centrifuged and put back into the reactor. At least, that's the most reasonable way to deal with it - it's not waste, it's more fuel.
Posted by charlie@...
28th Mar 2012
-1 Votes
+ -
Why are they being stored in olympic pools and mountains?
Some spent nuclear is recycled for some nuclear plants. Most spent nuclear fuel is submerged underwater is very large pools or buried in remote geologically stable locations - at very high cost.
Posted by bob@...
Updated - 28th Mar 2012
0 Votes
+ -
what to do with the spent fuel?
uhhh... Yucca Mtn.! and get rid of the state of NV hostility to a well-thought out, scientifically reasonable, completed (very nearly) answer to this problem.
SRS is NOT a good place to leave it indefinitely, and disposing in MOX fuel cycle is a way to recover some of the investment we have in post Cold War materials for the benefit of the citizens who have already paid for it.
Posted by NuPowerProf
2nd Aug
0 Votes
+ -
4Gen Reactors
There are several designs that will use up the spent fuel rods. Molten salt reactor is the next generation of safe and clean nuclear power and waste will be minimal.
Posted by kralspaces
11th Nov
0 Votes
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Fracking for gas
Natural gas is a fossil fuel that, when burned, produces greenhouses gases that contribute to global warming. Although there is an apparent abundance of gas industry is increasing using the fracking method to squeeze gas out of locked-in geological formations. Opponents of fracking claim that gas drilling in areas of aquifers or nearby water table supplies may cause gas byproducts to infiltrate and spoil the water supply.
Posted by bob@...
28th Mar 2012
0 Votes
+ -
fracking opposition has little power
"Opponents of fracking claim that gas drilling in areas of aquifers or nearby water table supplies may cause gas byproducts to infiltrate and spoil the water "

They can claim whatever they want - can they do anything about it? The opponents of mountain top removal coal mining haven't had much success. I doubt the opponents of fracking will be any different.
Posted by James.McMurtry
28th Mar 2012
+5 Votes
+ -
Base Load Power
The article claims that baseload power generation will become unnecessary (at some undetermined future time) because renewables, such as the author's example of wind, will be magically distributed through the "smart grid" and that power users will somehow regulate their power consumption more efficiently. The author does not explain how to overcome the problems of power storage which is necessary no matter how smart the grid. The "smart grid" is a lot like "clean coal" in that neither one exists and there is much more to be gained by a more robust, decentralized grid that would be less prone to local power deficits, grid failures and, heaven forbid, sabotage. Many of the criticisms of nuclear power can be applied to most renewables; high capital cost and taxpayer subsidy, and long-term reliability. Wind power is particularly maintenance-intensive and require huge land (or sea) area allocation. Can you imagine the cost and difficulties maintaining offshore wind farms? Solar power avoids the wind power moving parts problem, but currently available solar panels degrade rapidly and their output falls accordingly. The only time-tested renewable power is hydropower and new projects are unlikely given the "green angst" over fish migration and that sort of thing. Like it or not, baseload power is necessarily here for the long term.
Posted by mikemce
28th Mar 2012
0 Votes
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Fuel Cells
Fuel cells offer the promise of energy at anytime in higher density than batteries. If we manage demand and supply of electricity well we can reduce the scale/nameplate of electricity storage needed. Central power generation loses 40% of its electricity between the generator and end-user. If we generate electricity closer to the load center we effectively reduce the costs associated with building these huge plants which can be partly redeployed to battery or fuel cell technologies. If we also learn how to conserve energy and reduce our carbon foot-print we have an opportunity to have a "triple-bottom-line": lower fossil fuel consumption, lower ghg emissions and lower energy costs (and secure sources of energy from domestic sources).
Posted by bob@...
28th Mar 2012
0 Votes
+ -
Hydro is Inherently Limited
Quite aside from the environmental impacts of dam impoundments, hydro power has an inherent life span due to the reduction of storage capacity in the reservoir due to siltation.
Posted by mdwalls
30th Mar 2012
+2 Votes
+ -
You're disproving your own argument.
"That???s not a problem for China, however. The MIT report mentions that China is piloting a program that will allow it to monitor the national grid in real-time and control it automatically. The system eventually could allow China???s grid to uptake a far greater percentage of renewably-generated power than the antiquated and obsolete U.S. grid can, although the former is still the world???s top consumer of coal for power generation"
You neglected to mention China also is building more than 2 dozen nuclear units now, and with a stated goal of 300,000 megawatts of nuclear power planned with nuclear being the country's foundation for an electric system (China Daily News 12/7/11), along with all the coal capacity its building. With the ultimate in top down regulation, China has exactly the environment you described as necessary for renewables to take the forefront, and it clearly isn't happening.
As my daddy used to say;If a frog had wings, he wouldn't bump his butt when he jumped. If we could just have the right regulatory environment, all the power we use would be renewable. Two statements of equal veracity based on unrealistic visions.
Posted by Diveguy7317
28th Mar 2012
-1 Votes
+ -
Unrealistic visions: technology is static and will not solve our problems
This morning I spent some time studying a farm in Peterborough Ontario Canada. The farm had 300 acres of which about 160 acres were developed to produce a crop that didn't exist 5 years ago as the costs of production were prohibitive and there were alternative economic sources much cheaper. What I found interesting is that the farm produced crops without tractors, full-time farm-hands and the usual farm machinery and equipment. But every day the crop keeps being harvested with few interventions. The capital costs were high but the operating costs low. The solar farm had 96,000 thin film solar panels generating 9.5 MW (equivalent) of power annually for the local grid. The owners of the power plant were the citizens of Peterborough. The plant operators were two guys from the Peterborough Utilities Commission that traded on-call duties as they were not required to spend full-time hours on-site. Bottom-line is that technology improvements and prices paid to generate renewable solar electricity did in fact make a difference over the past 5 years. To say that those who expect technology in renewable energy and related lower costs to continue are "unrealistic" is simplistic and disconnected with the empirical evidence that proves that technology is not static and has, in fact, in the case of renewable energy, reduced capital costs while improving efficiency and electricity yield.
Posted by bob@...
Updated - 28th Mar 2012
0 Votes
+ -
Cannot find if the plant was ever completed.
Everything I read has ended with less than 25 percent of the panels installed and the utility walking away from the contract.

New panels were in the contract, but the company tried to reuse panels from a failed project.

Truck loads of the used panels showed up damaged. The poor design was also a factor in pulling the plug.

This is one of over a dozen links on the topic. The local utility fails to list a local solar plant as one of it power sources.

It did not go as smooth or easy as you made it sound.

http://www.thepeterboroughexaminer.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=2755850&archive=true
Posted by Hates Idiots
Updated - 12th Apr 2012
0 Votes
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Frogs bumpin' butt
Great description of our current National Energy "$ystem" that is designed to maximize Utility profits instead of keep rates low...
Posted by CaptD
31st Mar 2012
0 Votes
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Yes, but not in our lifetime
While I agree with much of the article, the leap of going from 20% of capacity to 100% is a leap too far. As we ramp up renewables we are already getting the NIMBY human factor push back. In addition to the killing of raptors, many people do not want wind turbines nearby because of the noise and visual clutter. Solar and wind power generating facilities take up large amounts of land, disturbing more surface than that disturbed by conventional fuels for the equivalent power production. While clean in terms of air pollution, there are many impacts that must be addressed for renewable development.
The bottomline is that while 100% renewable power generation may be possible in the very distant future, it will not happen in our lifetime. In addition, economically and environmentally, I do not think it is even desirable. We do need to find a better balance, and that will require better use of technology and smarter regulation than we have now.
Posted by jbroderi@...
28th Mar 2012
0 Votes
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Time to Get A Clue
What other 1st world countries are doing to blend renewables with non-renewable energy sources is more than a hint of the future - We better get with renewables if we want to be competitive in today's global economy. We'd need plans for increased reliance on renewables and start building smart energy systems quickly. A good start would be to do away with the billions in subsidies to the profit hungry oil and gas industry and use that money to try and catch up to other first world countries.

And for those of us not employed in the gas and oil industry, it's time to step up and confront the lobbyists. First of all don't fall prey to their misleading ad campaigns about supposedly green and clean energy. Tell them enough! Basta!
Posted by pancheetah
28th Mar 2012
+2 Votes
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Examples please
I live in the oil patch and I like to ask for examples of subsidies so that I can pass them on to my friends in the oil industry. They are constantly looking for a handout but can't ever find one. What they usually find are high taxes, fees, onerous regulatory constraints and a commentariat lobbying against them. I am really sure they would benefit from a subsidy so please tell so I can pass the information along.
Posted by Jardinero1
28th Mar 2012
0 Votes
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Greenhouse Gas Subsidy
The Oil patch has had a GHG subsidy since day one.
Posted by bob@...
28th Mar 2012
+1 Vote
+ -
Was that a clip-and-paste...
...from a DNC press release? Please, at least try to add something original.
Posted by JohnMcGrew@...
28th Mar 2012
0 Votes
+ -
Time for robotic factories
Which is the ONLY way solar can ever supply a meaningful (past 20%) electrical generation. It takes about the same amount of landspace that we already used for roads... for solar to power EVERYTHING (well almost everything)!
Obviously, solar will never make it past nill if we continue to put tariffs on China's panels unless we make it even cheaper. And obviously, the only way to do that is to not have to make huge amounts of profit on every little solar cell made. We use advanced machine automation for "everything else", why not use it for solar and the LiFePO4 battery, too.

Lest we simply resort to nuclear... advanced nuclear like LFTR!
Posted by fireofenergy
28th Mar 2012
0 Votes
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Thorium Molten Salt Reactors
LFTR is a good solution but it will be a long time before we see commerical use. Natural Gas has to be a temporary solution to fill the gap.
Posted by kralspaces
11th Nov
+2 Votes
+ -
Good Article
Your series of articles have the effect of untying a Gordian knot to show the complexities of the current energy situation. The future of energy is going to need a lot of resources to make up the loss of cheap fuel to make energy. The more we prepare for the future, the better we will be to handle changes in how and what we use to generate power. A failure to plan is a plan to fail.
Posted by sboverie
28th Mar 2012
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