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Occupy, Tea Party, and the Politics of Less

By | November 23, 2011, 5:42 AM PST

Beneath the complex narratives of the Occupy and Tea Party movements, and beneath the unfolding collapse of our complex global financial system, is a simpler narrative about energy. Yet this narrative continues to elude most observers, because they don’t understand the fundamental relationship between energy and the real economy. This week I’ll attempt to tell a simple version of that story, in the plainest possible terms, and explain the Occupy and Tea Party movements in that context.

Let’s begin with some economic history.

For nearly all of U.S. history up through the late 1960s, the production of energy, especially oil, had grown continuously. And economic activity, as measured by GDP, grew right along with it.

At the same time, the U.S. dollar was pinned to gold, first under a gold standard requiring the Federal Reserve to maintain 40 percent of its outstanding paper currency in gold reserves, and then under the Bretton Woods Agreement of 1944, which created the International Monetary Fund (IMF) and set exchange rates for various national currencies in terms of US dollars, which in turn were convertible to gold at the rate of $35 an ounce.

Thus the growth of the U.S. economy was pinned to oil and to gold, both hard assets. It helped to keep inflation and deficit spending under control, but it also checked economic growth.

By 1971, however, the costs of the Vietnam War and the end of the post-war infrastructure building spree had stalled economic growth, and spending began to exceed revenues. Growth was further stymied by U.S. oil production, which had peaked in the previous year and begun to decline.


Source: EIA

This was intolerable, because the U.S. had debt, which is a claim on future productivity. Without growth, debt cannot be repaid, making growth an economic imperative.

President Nixon’s solution was to abandon the virtual gold standard entirely, ending the convertibility of dollars into gold and effectively placing the world’s monetary system on a fiat basis denominated in U.S. dollars. Thus in 1971 we entered a new era, in which organic growth driven by increasing energy supply and actual productivity was replaced by artificial growth fueled by debt.

Source: Reading Nature’s Signals

At the time, the expectation of continued growth justified the departure from the gold peg, and oil supply wasn’t yet recognized as a concern. Crude from the Middle East was cheap and abundant, and the largest oil field in North America had just been discovered in 1968. Analysts of the day would have had little reason to fear that debt would run away from the real economy.

But as we can see, that’s exactly what happened. GDP continued to rise at roughly its historical rate, outpacing the faltering growth of energy supply, but it was at the expense of a burgeoning debt load, as shown in this close-up of the years 1965 to 2007:

Source: Sudden Debt

The obvious result of the debt explosion was a debasement of the dollar, in real terms, and a declining net surplus to society. Average working households experienced this as household debt exceeding real disposable income, starting around 1983. In order to thwart the resulting “stagflation,” we loosened financial regulation and borrowing restrictions, which permitted us to blow more bubbles: first the dot-com bubble, then the housing bubble, and then the debt bubble:

Source: San Francisco Fed, marked up by Dave Cohen

The ultimate result was the blow-off of the debt bubble in 2008 and subsequent economic decline as we began the long process of debt deleveraging.

The same cycle, operating over somewhat different time frames and scales, has been happening to most of the world, led first by the demands of remaining competitive in a globalized economy with a major actor becoming a major debtor and currency debaser, then by the flattening-out of world oil supply, starting in 2005. In the pithy formulation of my colleague Gregor Macdonald, “In the old oil cycle, such sovereign debt problems were merely a function of profligacy. In the new oil cycle, a debt crisis is no longer solvable with growth.”

The end of the growth acid trip

We now find ourselves with a global financial regime that is literally teetering on the brink of the abyss. The debt crisis in Europe is an echo of the banking crisis we had in the U.S. in 2008, with MF Global (leveraged 40 to 1 on European debt to equity) playing the part of Lehman Brothers (leveraged 30 to 1 on toxic mortgage debt), and Greece, Italy and Spain playing the uncreditworthy borrowers, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. Except in this go-round, France and Germany (playing the part of the US public) and the ECB (playing the part of the Fed) aren’t going along with the script. Rather than monetizing the European debt to infinity and beyond and socializing the losses, they are thinking about skipping out the backstage exit door for a drink and a smoke, and just letting the rest of the players sort out the rest of Act III for themselves: worst case, a global plunge into a deflationary vortex, wiping out most of the financial “wealth” in the developed world.

The fundamental problem from a theoretical standpoint, as I discussed a few weeks ago in “Economic theory and the Real Great Contraction,” is that economic theorists are, in the words of sociologist John Bradford, “unaware of the essential role that energy played in the creation and maintenance of the [economic] order.” (He has a good argument, and I encourage economics geeks to explore that link.) The apparent decoupling of energy from economic growth in the U.S. has emboldened some optimists to claim that energy intensity has increased, and that economic growth has cast off its shackles to primary energy supply. But that illusion vanishes too, after adjusting for offshoring of manufacturing over the last 30 years, and the drawdown of capital stocks. As Gail Tverberg showed this week, on a global basis, energy intensity has remained flat. Economic growth is essentially and unequivocally inseparable from energy growth.

During periods of plenty, laissez-faire economics mainly functions as a way of calling forth supply (of energy, food, and other essentials), but during periods of less, they mainly ration demand: if you can’t pay, you don’t get any. Periods of energy surplus beget positive feedback loops, in which higher demand calls forth greater supply, more debt, and more peace. But periods of energy deficit beget negative feedback loops, where declining energy return on investment (EROI) leads to declining surplus, debt deflation, less peace, less freedom, and ultimately a decline in production and trade.

Source: “Revisiting the Limits to Growth After Peak Oil,” Hall, Day, American Scientist May-June 2009

The declining surplus of real economic wealth, as underpinned by energy and other hard assets like food production and water, has been masked by hallucinatory, debt-driven wealth. But like the tenth hour of a technicolor acid trip at the most decadent party in human history, the hallucination of wealth is now beginning to wear off, and the cold, gray light of dawn is revealing some ugly shadows.

In the growing gap between real wealth and hallucinated wealth, those with the most wealth were able to game the system and capture more of the declining surplus available to society via various mechanisms: cuts in taxes on capital gains and dividends (which don’t figure in the incomes of average people), cuts in the marginal tax rates of the top income earners, shifting a greater share of the income to corporate structures, and floating individually to the top of globalized companies that continued to grow even as the center of the domestic economy was being hollowed out.

Source: Alan de Smet

The Politics of Less

This brings us to the heart of the Occupy and Tea Party movements. While I would give neither movement undue credit for having an intellectual grasp on the details of economics or energy that brought us to this point, both movements are essentially a response to the declining net surplus available to society. And this is making the banks very nervous. As a memo from the lobbying firm Clark Lytle Geduldig Cranford to the American Bankers Association, recently exposed by Chris Hayes at MSNBC, said:

“Well-known Wall Street companies stand at the nexus of where OWS protestors and the Tea Party overlap on angered populism. Both the radical left and the radical right are channeling broader frustration about the state of the economy and share a mutual anger over TARP and other perceived bailouts.”

They may not fully understand how it happened, or why, but the average Occupy or Tea Party protestor understands one thing: they are getting poorer. The rest of the debate is about the tactics of what to do about it: redistributing the remaining surplus, or shrinking the slice of that surplus consumed by government. Shall we cut the “entitlement programs” of surplus—Medicare and Social Security—or redistribute the wealth to allow them to continue? To reframe it another way, the Occupy movement is the “Help Me Party,” and the Tea Partiers are the “Help Yourself Party.”

The failure of the so-called Supercommittee to come to any agreement on how to cut a mere $1.2 trillion from the federal budget reflects how difficult it is to come to grips with the declining surplus, or as a hedge fund manager friend of mine (I’ll call him Mr. X) puts it: the Politics of Less.

The historical script for the Politics of Less is clear, as Mr. X reminds me constantly: “The period 1770-1815 was marked by bank runs, currency collapse and sovereign defaults. The politics of less led to revolution. So did the great ‘Victorian’ depression 1873-1905. Humans have had social cohesion, or non-coercion, but not both. And certainly not in times of scarcity. The Old Law will return. Cry havoc and loose the dogs of war.” Heavy-handed crackdowns on protesters, surveillance of subversive elements, mass withdrawals from banks, and sovereign debt defaults are all part of the standard story arc.

The political and economic systems that worked in the age of surplus can no longer produce social cohesion. Measured in hard assets, it becomes a fight to maintain one’s standard of living; measured in currency, it becomes a global race to the bottom (currency devaluation).

On a purely mathematical basis, absent a massive redistribution of wealth and a transition to a renewably-powered economy, we are now on a descent trajectory that will bring us to the point where the resource base times the efficiency of production equals consumption times population. That equation suggests a global population of around 1.5 billion or less by the end of this century, or a loss of about five-sixths of the world’s population from peak (circa 2020) to trough (circa 2100).

This leads us to some very fundamental, even existential, questions. Faced with the Politics of Less, can we stomach coerced wealth redistribution, or will we simply let the system collapse? Do you bet on a global expansion of consciousness such that we recognize we are all One and link arms, singing Kumbaya? Or do you get busy on your hilltop doomstead, equipped with backup energy, food, water, ammunition, and gold? Do you join your brothers and sisters in the streets, or do you withdraw to your tribe and erect a security fence on the perimeter?

There are no quick fixes to this challenge. It has evolved over roughly half a century, through Democratic and Republican regimes alike, and we have roughly half a century to respond to it, starting right now. Any response that doesn’t address the fundamental issue of declining net energy is doomed to fail. I like to think we can respond intelligently, and I would never short human ingenuity and compassion. On the other hand, it’s hard to argue against a reversion to the mean of human history.

What’s your bet?

Photo: Occupy Wall Street (david_shankbone/Flickr)

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Chris Nelder

About Chris Nelder

Chris Nelder is a columnist for SmartPlanet.

Chris Nelder

Chris Nelder

Columnist, Energy

Chris Nelder is an energy analyst and consultant who has written about energy and investing for more than a decade. He is the author of two books on energy and investing, Profit from the Peak and Investing in Renewable Energy, and has appeared on BBC TV, Fox Business, CNN national radio, Australian Broadcasting Corp., CBS radio and France 24. He is based in California.

Follow him on Twitter.

Chris Nelder

Chris Nelder

Chris may or may not have financial holdings in the companies he writes about at the time of publication, as he is an active investor and trader in equities and ETFs. He also occasionally travels at the expense of companies or their press relations agencies in order to report on a company or industry event related to it. Chris prominently discloses this information when appropriate. These relationships have no influence on his coverage. Companies he covers do not get to review columns in advance, or select or reject topics.

He writes for SmartPlanet, but is not an employee of CBS.

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+2 Votes
+ -
Whatever - GI/GO
Your conclusions are flawed, and it's no wonder. You suggest that a massive redistribution of wealth and a transition to a renewably-powered economy are our only hope. We're not out of oil, nor are we running out. Neither are we out of food. The U.S. produces more than we can consume, and social justice policies cause us to store and destroy excess food, grow certain crops above need (i.e. corn) and restrict other crops (i.e. peanuts)

The housing and debt bubbles were a direct result of flawed government policies. In the name of Social Justice, Democrats passde legislation that all but forced banks to lend money without income verification, and to approve mortages up to 100% of the home's value. This is the kind of thing of which the TEA Party has had enough. The "supercommittee" failed because that what the Administration's plan was all along... to blame the mess on "the Republicans" so that they Democrats can gain back the House.

After years of Keynesian ecomonics, we've run that horse to death, and the TEA Party and OWS groups are not quite what you describe, altough both groups have "had enough", they've had enough of different things, and want different things, and go about it in different ways.

The TEA party has had enough of tax and spend Keynsian economics and knows that that dog no longer hunts, wants to get back to reasonable, Consitutional government, and classical, sustainable Capitalistic ecomonics. They've also had enough of corruption, free rides, greed, and scandle. Their rallies do not "occupy", but leave the site cleaner than when they arrived.

The OWS crowd wants to end Capitalism and Fascism, and move towards Socialism, paid for, of course, by someone else. They shut down businesses, denying hourly wage earners a day's pay. They want to borrow money and not have to pay it back. They want people who work long hard hours and risked their personal finances to build a successful business to give their hard-earned money to those that have not risked anything, nor earned success. The places that they occupy are thouroughly trashed.
Posted by bb_apptix
23rd Nov 2011
+4 Votes
+ -
Question
How do you interpret the OWS complaints about financiers not being prosecuted for the mortgage derivatives scandal or the OWS push to get the corporate money out of politics as that group NOT having had enough of corruption, free rides, greed, and scandal?

Or did you not even know those were part of the picture?
Posted by NickNielsen
23rd Nov 2011
-1 Votes
+ -
Not whatever.
To bb_apptix. You are a disgrace;a typical Fox News consumer who doesn't have a clue about the reality around you. You miss the point of Mr Nelder's article, and only spout typical ultra-conservative talking points that are spoon fed you by the "Ministry of Truth" (aka Owellian newspeak) Fox News. You have no understanding of what OWS is really about; or worse, purposely spinning the misdirection in order to protect Fox News true constituents, the wealthy - who are in fact gaming the system, as Mr. Nelder described. Get a clue, turn off Fox and read some good books on the financial crisis, like "All The Devils Are Here", "The Big Short", "Too Big To Fail", and watch the documentary movie "Inside Job".
Posted by skykeys
23rd Nov 2011
+2 Votes
+ -
Whatever - GI/GO
You hit the nail squarely on it head!
Posted by gil_seiler
24th Nov 2011
0 Votes
+ -
what ever
i've heard that before.. that jimmy carter and an over extended janitor are responsible for the housing crisis ... watching faux new too much are we??? the tea party started with good intentions just as ows. but the tp got hijacked by the right wing wack jobs and began being funded by astroturfs like the koch bros along with the help of the rr mouthpeice of faux news ..now they are trying to force the rr socal agenda as though it has something to do with the economy..
Posted by ed67000
25th Nov 2011
+6 Votes
+ -
Interesting\
It is interesting that energy is a factor in the changes we have seen in the last 40 years; I don't think it is the only factor. I see the Tea Party and OWS having some overlap in complaints but opposed in remedies. The Tea Party wants to take the rugged individualist route and OWS for some wants to get government to get back in the business of representing the common man.

The article states that the US was taken off the gold standard to let the dollar float to market forces. The article mentions the debt bubble but does not talk about the change in interest rates that, during the 80's, jumped from single digit to double digits for most people. It is the interest on debt that makes it harder to pay off debt for individuals and nations.

Debt is not a bad or good thing as a concept, but it is how the debt is serviced as well as the payments to the debts. One way to get into debt quicksand is to borrow and pay only the minimum payment for years and then borrow to pay for the minimum payments. The article does say that expected growth was how debts were covered until growth began to decrease. Greece for example anticipated growth that did not happen to pay for the debts the govenment took on; the situation has gotten to the point that Greece has to borrow money to repay debts.

Historically, usary was considered evil and was banned in many countries with some exceptions. I think that usary has contributed to the decline in growth as much as energy although both are intertwined.

It should not be politics of less, it should be politics to keep the use of resources to sustainable levels. Currently, there are nations that are buying up strategic metals and that has caused the cost of copper to rise enough that thieves are breaking into vacant homes and buildings to rip out the copper wiring and plumbing (as well as steal the copper sword from the Lincoln Memorial). The US during WWII had rationing for many things that people undured to help support a war against the axis, this may need to be done today for similar reasons.
Posted by sboverie
23rd Nov 2011
+2 Votes
+ -
Many factors at work
Yes, interest rates, global macroeconomic issues and many other factors have played important roles in the big picture I outlined, but I wanted to tell a simplified story (which was long enough already). I do not claim that energy is the only factor, and it's difficult to tease out the role that energy has played independently of everything else. But it should be obvious that one cannot generate a single dollar of GDP without consuming energy, and that all of our economic activity up through 2004 was generated in an era of cheap energy that is now behind us, which has radical implications for the overhang of debt. Unfortunately, textbook economics treats energy as an infinite, external input that is infinitely substitutable, when it is not.
Posted by Chris Nelder
23rd Nov 2011
+1 Vote
+ -
Thanks
Sorry, I did not mean to sound like I was nitpicking on your article. It was well written and it showed parts of this tangled ball of twine we are trying to unravel. I have a feeling that if the resources, energy and debt/interest, are compared that both may follow similar trends.

If the economy is like the voyage of the Titanic and we are just noticing that the ship has run into an ice berg, then we will find out how inadequate the safety net is for both the top 1% and the 99% stuck in steerage. In this poor analogy, the Tea Party is preparing to take off in the life boats and OWA is trying to get out of the 2nd, 3rd class and steerage for a chance to survive.
Posted by sboverie
23rd Nov 2011
+2 Votes
+ -
Do you earn or are you "entitled"
The government has not represented the common man since around 1900. The comparison of OWS and the TEA party is interesting. 85% of the OWS demonstrators are not now or have ever been employed while nearly 100% of the TEA party participants are employed or retired from a lifetime of work.

OWS wants the Government to GIVE them everything and the TEA party just wants to be able to keep more of what they earn. Having worked as many as 3 jobs at a time for over 50 years and still working I find the OWS events embarrassing. How dare these unemployed entitlement kids demand that my hard work be given to them because they "deserve" it.

To look at the 2 movements and say there are common goals is not even close to being accurate...OWS wants more Government and the TEA party wants less.
Posted by Original-gray2hairs
23rd Nov 2011
+2 Votes
+ -
I earn
Thanks for caring.
Posted by sboverie
23rd Nov 2011
+5 Votes
+ -
Common grievance
"To look at the 2 movements and say there are common goals is not even close to being accurate...OWS wants more Government and the TEA party wants less."

I think the two movements have a common grievance. The domination of government, particularly the Federal government, by commercial and monied interests to the detriment of the average American. Their answers may be different but they spring from the same roots.
Posted by riverat1
Updated - 23rd Nov 2011
+1 Vote
+ -
entitled
You are correct . However , you should be hopeing that they get lifted up and that the next generation has better oppurtunities . This can happen if the 1% share some of their wealth via a more even tax structure. No body wants bigger gov't If bussinesses were more ethical we wouldn't need bigger gov't. We need EPA , OSHA, and other agencies because of this
Posted by ed67000
25th Nov 2011
0 Votes
+ -
OWS is against entitlements - as in socialism for rich people
Both the tea party and OWS know that wall street crashed the economy. OWS knows it's because they finance the campaigns of congressmen who
then return the favor by writing laws that rig the market in their favor.

The tea party thinks regulation is the problem. History shows it was lack of regulation, as in the repeal of Glass-Steagall, that let wall street turn from investment banking to casino operators, with them playing the part of the house. And no one beats the house.

When the Health Insurance industry gets an EXEMPTION from the anti-trust act, when Private banks run the Fed and own congress so they get bailed out when the screw up, and leave so many of the 99% as collateral damage, that's NOT capitalism. That's socialism for rich corporations.

OWS isn't pro-socialism. We want corporate America to stop rigging the markets in their favor and try that risk/reward-based capitalism they talk about so much!
Posted by darudmon@...
26th Nov 2011
+1 Vote
+ -
Do you earn or are you "entitled"
The government has not represented the common man since around 1900. The comparison of OWS and the TEA party is interesting. 85% of the OWS demonstrators are not now or have ever been employed while nearly 100% of the TEA party participants are employed or retired from a lifetime of work.

OWS wants the Government to GIVE them everything and the TEA party just wants to be able to keep more of what they earn. Having worked as many as 3 jobs at a time for over 50 years and still working I find the OWS events embarrassing. How dare these unemployed entitlement kids demand that my hard work be given to them because they "deserve" it.

To look at the 2 movements and say there are common goals is not even close to being accurate...OWS wants more Government and the TEA party wants less.
Posted by Original-gray2hairs
23rd Nov 2011
+1 Vote
+ -
Do you earn or are you "entitled"
The government has not represented the common man since around 1900. The comparison of OWS and the TEA party is interesting. 85% of the OWS demonstrators are not now or have ever been employed while nearly 100% of the TEA party participants are employed or retired from a lifetime of work.

OWS wants the Government to GIVE them everything and the TEA party just wants to be able to keep more of what they earn. Having worked as many as 3 jobs at a time for over 50 years and still working I find the OWS events embarrassing. How dare these unemployed entitlement kids demand that my hard work be given to them because they "deserve" it.

To look at the 2 movements and say there are common goals is not even close to being accurate...OWS wants more Government and the TEA party wants less.
Posted by Original-gray2hairs
23rd Nov 2011
+1 Vote
+ -
I'm also suspicious of the articles conclusions
I do see that the article wants to focus on net energy as a guideline for how to solve the crisis we're in. The world needs to wake up to the reality that Nuclear is the most affordable way to move forward. Sure. Building them is expensive but they last long and the fuel is cheap. And the irrational fear of radiation is it's biggest obstacle. A few lessons on radiation would help the people overcome their fear. Then wider acceptance and eventual return to prosperity.
Posted by rickmaltese
23rd Nov 2011
+1 Vote
+ -
Nuclear fuel cheap?
How is nuclear fuel cheap when you include the cost of dealing with the waste products? Of course the "fuel" for solar and wind power is essentially free and without the waste problem that nuclear and fossil fuels have.
Posted by riverat1
23rd Nov 2011
+2 Votes
+ -
Nuclear costs
There is a current example of the cost of nuclear power, decommisioning a nuclear plant takes nearly a decade and a lot of money. I don't know if this would apply to thorium reactors.

Nuclear power will probably be part of the energy sources in the future. It would be good to work on alternative technologies so that we do not depend on a narrow range of energy resources. It is also a good idea to improve conservation so that we can extend resources further than current usage rates.
Posted by sboverie
23rd Nov 2011
+2 Votes
+ -
The fuel is only cheap until you're through using it
Then its true cost comes into play (for the next 10,000 years---but, hey! that's on somebody else's watch, isn't it?).
Posted by hippiekarl
25th Nov 2011
+1 Vote
+ -
Bad Economics
I'm sorry, but this "article" reads like something from the Heritage Foundation. The underlying relationship between cheap, easily available energy and economic growth is a part of the story, but not told very well and not put in context. We have built an economy based on cheap energy - but that relationship may not and does not have to hold in the future. "Bubbles" are not a new phenomenon so connecting them to leaving the gold standard makes no sense. The global financial regime is in a difficult period, and may see some regional collapses (it's a little hard to see how the euro survives), but the long term impact seems not likely to be a collapse but a shifting of power (read: China). MF Global bears little resemblance to Lehman Brothers - in scale or in impact.

I am disappointed that an article of this poor quality show up in here, where careful economic analysis is replaced by ideology and a point of view.
Posted by brad.barbeau@...
23rd Nov 2011
+6 Votes
+ -
Then do tell
In your view, what context is missing from the energy/economy relationship? How do you think economic activity might depart from energy in the future, and what is your evidence? How would you explain the global debt bubble, if unpegging from hard assets and going to a global fiat currency regime had nothing to do with it? What part of the article did you find ideological?
Posted by Chris Nelder
23rd Nov 2011
+2 Votes
+ -
bad ideology
To brad.barbeau, I submit that it is you who is bringing ideology over analytics into the discussion. You claim this reads like it's from the Heritage Foundation ? Why, because it brings the gold standard into it? Believe me, I'm no fan of the Heritage Foundation. Mr. Nelder also talks about how the financial industry is gaming the system. That is definitely not a Heritage Foundation mantra, and in fact brought ire in the comments from bb_apptix, to which I also responded. If this article is getting scorn from both the right and the left, I think it is probably hitting the nail on the head and deserves some consideration. I think energy policy is a topic that is not getting nearly enough consideration in politics and the media today.
Posted by skykeys
23rd Nov 2011
+3 Votes
+ -
Re: Bad Ideology
Right On! However, you wrote, "...energy policy is a topic that is not getting nearly enough consideration in politics and the media today."

That's because conventional economists are 99% clueless and feeding politics and media the same old, very tired growth paradigm whether from capitalist/socialist/free market/Keynesian perspectives. The Age of Less is hardly being modeled on the fringes. The Age of Less can't even pay down the principal, let alone the interest. Without interest, it all falls apart.
Posted by Ron Shook
23rd Nov 2011
-1 Votes
+ -
Economical Energy
In the long term, wind, solar and wave energy may be very viable and economical; which it is not today. So while these energy sources are being further developed (and not at tax payers??? expense), we need to use the economic short to medium term solution that is currently available ??? nuclear. Sure there has been a recent incident in Japan that the whole world has taken a knee-jerk reaction to and declared nuclear energy as bad and evil. Yes, we do need to be responsible and apply lessons learned (as with all engineering issues, e.g. Gulf of Mexico oil spill), but do not arbitrarily condemn it. There have been many nuclear plants successfully operating for more than 40 years, incident free ??? improve on those and we have an economic solution going forward until something better is developed.
Posted by sweetings@...
23rd Nov 2011
+3 Votes
+ -
Solar PV
At the rate the cost of solar PV is dropping it will be the cheapest way to put electricity on the grid well before 2020. I've already heard of proposed coal power plants that have been cancelled because of that fact and nuclear is more expensive than coal.
Posted by riverat1
23rd Nov 2011
+1 Vote
+ -
Time is the enemy
The problem with nuclear is that it takes too long design, approve, and build a nuclear power plant.

Where I live, we use to get about a quarter of our power from nuclear. They had plans to build more nuclear, expanding existing facilities so as not to deal with NIMBYs. But with a time line of over 15 years and costs in the many billions, the government here decided to go wind and solar. Their thought is as follows: "If we put up a fifty wind mills a year and allow farmers to put massive PV arrays in their fields, in 10 to 15 years, those systems will produce all of the energy that our new power plants would produce without the waste problems. Win-win."

I will add one more item to this comment. I live in a place that is one of the largest exporters of uranium in the world, and has been for many years, one of the leading developers and exporters of nuclear power plant technologies world wide. (I live less than 100km from one of the earliest prototype reactors and early prototype nuclear power plants.) So when the people who build and supply your reactors are saying wind and solar are more cost effective in both the short and the long run, you might want to listen to us.
Posted by mheartwood
24th Nov 2011
+1 Vote
+ -
Time is the enemy
The problem with nuclear is that it takes too long design, approve, and build a nuclear power plant.

Where I live, we use to get about a quarter of our power from nuclear. They had plans to build more nuclear, expanding existing facilities so as not to deal with NIMBYs. But with a time line of over 15 years and costs in the many billions, the government here decided to go wind and solar. Their thought is as follows: "If we put up a fifty wind mills a year and allow farmers to put massive PV arrays in their fields, in 10 to 15 years, those systems will produce all of the energy that our new power plants would produce without the waste problems. Win-win."

I will add one more item to this comment. I live in a place that is one of the largest exporters of uranium in the world, and has been for many years, one of the leading developers and exporters of nuclear power plant technologies world wide. (I live less than 100km from one of the earliest prototype reactors and early prototype nuclear power plants.) So when the people who build and supply your reactors are saying wind and solar are more cost effective in both the short and the long run, you might want to listen to us.
Posted by mheartwood
24th Nov 2011
+2 Votes
+ -
Good onesided history
The article missed the part about why US oil peaked. It was easier to buy the oil from the middle eastern countries than be tied up in court or government regulations to get our own oil. Conservationists should be considered in the cause of the problem.
Prices go up with changes and time. We could have become energy independent at a fraction of the cost today, but distorted concepts of what would happen to the land, animals and resources put road blocks in the way putting energy projects at risk.
We needed to correct some of the environmental issues that were growing but not stop new refineries, and reasonable power solutions within our control.Rather than take care of and use what we had we became a throw away society. Just go get what we want now, not plan and work for it.
Posted by DEfromDC
23rd Nov 2011
+6 Votes
+ -
US Peak Oil
US petroleum production peaked in the 1970's because we had already tapped all of the easy to get oil. It has nothing to do with government regulations or being tied up in court. That's just a right wing talking point.

You are right that we could have become energy independent as a fraction of the cost today but it wouldn't have been because we could drill enough oil domestically to replace the imported oil. US reserves aren't big enough unless you count oil shale which is too expensive to compete.
Posted by riverat1
23rd Nov 2011
+1 Vote
+ -
Oil shale *was* too expensive to compete
You make a good point that we wouldn't have been able to supply enough domestic oil in the 1970s, because the technology wasn't advanced enough. With current technologies, oil shale has the ability to become a viable substitute. But still, government regulation and misguided, litigious eco-nuts are the barriers that are making it too expensive. By the 1970s, we had become so dependent on cheap foreign oil that the scale of our oil production wasn't enough to replace it economically, even if we had easy oil.

So saying, "It has nothing to do with government regulations or being tied up in court," is incorrect. It played a part.
Posted by Suncat2000
Updated - 23rd Nov 2011
+2 Votes
+ -
'Litigious eco-nuts'?!
Like those wackos in Bradford/Susquehanna Co.s, PA, who whine every time their tap water catches fire? Or their backyards fill up with frack-residue? Somebody ought to round them all up and take them to a camp somewhere, huh?
Posted by hippiekarl
25th Nov 2011
0 Votes
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Still is
By the 1970s, we had become so dependent on cheap foreign oil that the scale of our oil production wasn't enough to replace it economically, even if we had easy oil.

What!? The US was an net oil exporter up until the end of the 1960s. The whole oil embargo and odd/even gas days thing was because all of a sudden OPEC had the power to control the oil we were importing.

Oil shale only becomes viable when a barrel of petroleum is over $100. (I'm not sure of the exact number but it's near or over $100/barrel)
Posted by riverat1
28th Nov 2011
-6
Well said bb_apptix.
Posted by Hates Idiots  |  Below your threshold
0 Votes
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There Will Be a Test!
Your not gonna like it, while dribbling on your desiccated porterhouse.
Posted by Ron Shook
23rd Nov 2011
+5 Votes
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well not said
"carry the negative votes with pride". In other words, carry your lack of education and knowledge of the topic with pride. Carry your prejudice with pride.

If one looks at the responses here, most of the ones coming from those that can be described as likely conservatives are full of vitriol and inaccuracies. I've found that to be typical of their responses, based on many conversations over the past three years. There is little analytical acumen, and lots of finger pointing against the government; again; verbatim from ultra-right wing radio and TV.

I'll admit, my initial response to BB_apptix was a tad rude. happy I'm tired of that same old "it's the government's fault" mantra. It is changing the subject to focus on the financial crisis in this conversation, but the financial crisis was primarily caused by a deregulated financial industry, not primarily because of government forcing bad loans on people. In order to realize the convoluted truth of that situation, one needs to do a lot of reading. I've done a lot, and yet I will not claim to be an expert. It's too complicated a subject. But what I find appalling is that the conservatives who claim to know without a shadow of a doubt that the government is the cause of all problems, don't do any research. I can tell from their comments. It's a shame.
Posted by skykeys
23rd Nov 2011
+1 Vote
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Yup! OWS & Tea Party protest the same thing
Yup! OWS & Tea Party are protesting the same thing and they don't know it. Thank you for your confirmation of my less lucid opinion.

There are a few monkey wrenches you didn't call out: massive-outsourcing triggered by the great steel strike in the 50s; capping of US oil wells; the environmental movement; and the death of the US nuclear industry to name a few. These all played into your argument as well.

Sad to say it, but this problem won't be resolved without buckets of blood painting the streets of the world. Ultimately, that will be for the good of society or maybe not; it's too soon to prognosticate.
Posted by steve.hammill@...
Updated - 23rd Nov 2011
+2 Votes
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Yup--i don't think so
I think the environmental movement was good in that it provided a level playing field so that the industries had to comply equally and not cheat . The steel mills were out dated in the 50 s and Japan built more more efficient mills.. there is the problem with international dumping and making products because they pollute more.
Posted by ed67000
Updated - 25th Nov 2011
+4 Votes
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Should be required reading
Anyone who has not had a sense that we are on the brink, teetering in fact, about to fall into some sort of abyss, then this article should clarify for you what is going on. I think it should be required reading for business and politicians alike. Sure we can argue with small details, but the link between energy and output seem difficult to argue with.

I was surprised that you give us half a century to sort it out, starting now. My gut feel is that it will all unfold much more rapidly. But then, I thought that back in 2008 and much of the world seems to be able to pretend that normalcy reigns.

An excellent article all round. My worry is: 'but my words like silent raindrops fell, and echoed in the wells of silence' (Paul Simon).
Posted by paulminett
23rd Nov 2011
+4 Votes
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Cheers
Thanks Paul, I agree on all counts. I meant the adjustment will take about half a century to fully complete, but only if we start on it now...and yes, things could unfold very quickly indeed if we simply continue on the current path and on over the precipice. Then again, it took about a century for the Roman Empire to fully collapse, featuring both acute and chronic phases.
Posted by Chris Nelder
23rd Nov 2011
0 Votes
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That was then this is now
Back then the Romans didn't have MIRV ICBMs or hypersonic vehicles. So I think we can do things a bit quicker today than they did back then. A few days at most and it's Mad Max all over.
Posted by paulfx1
26th Nov 2011
+2 Votes
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Correlation is not Causation
Although I've enjoy reading Chris' detailed arguments, I usually have to dismiss his usual conclusions, which are usually more of the same. When it comes right down to it, what he describes is a situation where authorities attempt to re-engineer economic systems in the name of some crisis or injustice to better suit how they define crisis or injustice. Of course, then the market reacts to this, and then the engineers again suggest adjustment. The cycle continues.

"This leads us to some very fundamental, even existential, questions. Faced with the Politics of Less, can we stomach coerced wealth redistribution, or will we simply let the system collapse?"

Fallacy of the complex question. We already have "coerced wealth redistribution"; so much of our global economic system today is now supported upon the expectation that everyone has their hands in everyone else's back pocket. Printing money, which is what the Fed has been doing, and what the ECB is about to do is a clear example of this.
Posted by JohnMcGrew@...
Updated - 26th Nov 2011
+3 Votes
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Folks and their stereotypes of OWS and Tea Partiers
Gallup Poll of Tea Party participants in April 5, 2010 (1100 polled) and survey of OWS website visitors (1619 polled) by Hector Cordero-Guzman and Harrison Schultz in October 2011:

TP age 18-29: 16%
OWS Age less than 35: 67%

TP age 30-49: 34%
OWS age 35-45: 13%

TP age 50+: 50%
OWS 45+: 20%

Employment:
TP Full time: 50%
OWS Full time: 50%

TP Part time: 6%
OWS Part time: 20%

TP Unemployed: 6%
OWS Unemployed: 13.1%
National: around 9%

TP: Retired: 24%

Income:
TP 30K: 19%
TP 30-50K: 26%
OWS 50K: 70%

TP 50K+: 55%
OWS 50-80K: 15%
OWS 75+: 13%
OWS 150+: 2%

So a cursory glance reveals several things, most of which can be explained by the difference in the average age of the two groups. If you are younger, you make less money, have higher unemployment and are in school more. But not nearly as drastically different from the Tea Partiers, who also have their unemployed and their poor. Dare I say that the focus of the two groups can also be largely explained by the perspective in life stage. If you are beginning the journey, you want to have easier entry to the job market and wealth and safety nets, while if you are retired, you care more about protecting what you have. Finally, both camps are upset about excessive greed and disparity at the cost of the average joe.
Posted by klassman6
25th Nov 2011
0 Votes
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It is so simple really
It all went wrong when we lost the DISCIPLINE of the GOLD STANDARD.

Gold maintains it's scarcity , It cannot be faked or PRINTED. A simple die to measure the size and a simple balance to check the weight, and walla! That is what it is.
But to trust polititions, who are not known for their honesty or to do what is right is a losing game

I guess we are headed for the worst economic crash in history.

GO FORWARD TO ANOTHER GOLD STANDARD
Posted by TonyTrenton
Updated - 25th Nov 2011
+1 Vote
+ -
Sime very interesting points of view
First, are people really around 100% more in debt than what they're worth? According to your graph that's what it looks like. Who would be that crazy? I know that my car is worth 20% less once I drive it off the lot and that we all use lines of credit - but are that many people over-using it? While I do have money owned on plastic I'm still being offered and using 0% (plus a 2% transfer fee) interest on credit cards thus that's acceptable borrowing costs for us, but I don't make minimum payments either. I use borrowed money short term only. Meanwhile I really do own over 60% of my house plus of course retirement and savings. Did everyone keep blowing money like there was no tomorrow? After reading this, I'm starting to wonder if there is. I'd also like to see how people will somehow dig themselves out from the piles of debt within 3 to 5 years. That simply doesn't add up. We're talking about a lot of debt that's going to takes years before it's off the books. Our nation is in the toilet. I'm using two-ply for my tears.
Posted by bobinmo1
27th Nov 2011
0 Votes
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Does complexity lead to more simple minded movements?
My comment seems to be too long. Here is a link to it: http://www.modeler-forum.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=185&sid=39906ea388d9feb1461652a58fb84ffd
Posted by Kai Neumann
4th Dec 2011
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