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Obama vs. Romney: Who has the best energy plan?

By | September 5, 2012, 1:48 AM PDT

Radically different policies are not usually a feature of U.S. presidential campaigns, as it’s usually a small percentage of centrist swing voters who decide the winner. Normally the platforms consist of bland generalities designed for maximum appeal, with only a few small differences to distinguish them. Not so in this election, with President Obama and former Governor Romney offering virtually opposite visions of our energy future.

To be sure, the Obama and Romney energy policies have much in common on the broad outlines. Both claim to support an “all of the above” approach. Both have high hopes for biofuels, and support nuclear power. Both aim for some form of “energy independence” through expanded domestic oil and gas production.

But they differ sharply in the details.

Renewables

The 2012 Democratic National Platform, released yesterday, highlights President Obama’s goal to generate 80 percent of our electricity from clean energy sources by 2035, an ambitious upgrade from the 25 percent by 2025 goal mentioned in the 2008 party platform. Romney’s energy policy white paper, released two weeks ago, has no goals for the contribution of renewables; in fact, it scarcely mentions them at all. The word “renewable” appears just once in a favorable context, in a bland statement about its all-of-the-above strategy, while “solar” and “wind” mostly appear in negative contexts.

Obama wants to cut $40 billion over 10 years in tax breaks for oil and gas companies, but maintain tax incentives for renewables. Romney would do just the opposite, rolling back tax credits for renewables while keeping the incentives for oil and gas intact, inexplicably claiming that this would create a “level playing field.”

The two key incentives for renewables are the 2.2 cents per kilowatt-hour production tax credit, which has been responsible for the growth of the domestic wind industry, and the 30 percent investment tax credit for clean energy equipment, which has encouraged the growth of the solar industry. Both are set to expire at the end of this year. Romney is against both and would let them expire, while Obama has called on Congress to renew them.

Oil and gas

Romney’s energy policy statement isn’t a plan so much as a collection of quotes borrowing from recent oil and gas industry propaganda, with a smattering of text written by industry authors binding them together. It draws heavily on the Citigroup energy forecast I critiqued in April, and on another bullish oil forecast by Leonardo Maugeri, an oil company executive and senior fellow at a BP-funded center at Harvard, which I critiqued in July. Romney’s paper mentions “oil” 154 times and “gas” 83 times, laying out an aspirational message about drilling our way to energy independence while heaping scorn on investments in renewables.

Obama is also a vocal supporter of natural gas, touting it as a cleaner-burning domestic fuel that can give us more energy security and cut into our oil imports. Sadly, he still repeats the industry’s wild and unproven assertion that we have a 100-year supply of gas, which I debunked last December. He has also touted his administration’s actions to open more lands to drilling than the George W. Bush administration did, and noted the increase in domestic oil and gas production that has occurred during his term (although, as I detailed in March, his policies had little to do with it.)

Where Obama’s plan differs is in its repeated emphasis on conservation and eliminating “energy waste.” It sees reducing our oil consumption as a key pathway to independence, by nearly doubling the auto fuel efficiency standard by 2025. Romney’s paper does not contemplate fuel conservation or waste reduction at all, and the word “efficiency” appears just once, in a quote about GDP from the Citigroup report.

Romney’s plan would “aggressively” open all federal lands and waters to drilling, except for National Parks and a few other currently restricted areas. He would approve the contentious Keystone XL pipeline “on Day One.” In answers to questions posed by Scientific American and the grassroots organization ScienceDebate, Romney said he intends to pursue “a North American Energy Partnership so that America can benefit from the resources of its neighbors.” It’s unclear if he intends to simply annex Canada and Mexico in pursuit of U.S. “energy independence,” or how his approach would differ substantively from the existing harmonious oil and gas trade between the three countries. Obama punted the decision on the Keystone XL pipeline until after the election, saying that more time was needed to assess its environmental impact, but did approve the southern portion of the pipeline in the spring. As for exploration leases in federal waters and lands, he seems content with the existing access.

Broadly, Romney’s approach to oil and gas is exclusively supply-side, whereas Obama’s emphasizes the demand side as well.

Regulation

Although both Romney and Obama favor increased domestic oil and gas production, their views on regulation are very different.

“We will not back down from making sure an oil company can’t take the same reckless actions that led to the kind of oil spill we saw in the Gulf of Mexico two years ago,” the Democratic platform asserts. “We will not back down from protecting our kids from toxic mercury pollution, or making sure that our food is safe and our water is clean.”

But in Romney’s view, regulation is a bad word and should be avoided wherever possible in favor of market-based mechanisms, or simply turned over to the states, which historically have been far more lenient toward resource extraction. “Laws should promote a rational approach to regulation that takes cost into account,” his plan says. “Regulations should be carefully crafted to support rather than impede development.” While Romney’s rhetoric is no doubt appealing to voters in states heavily reliant on fossil fuel industry jobs, no one has asked him to explain how it would work in practice — for example, how he would have dealt with the Gulf oil spill without imposing a temporary drilling moratorium or new regulations on deepwater drilling, as Obama did.

Romney’s plan would reform “environmental statutes and regulations to strengthen environmental protection without destroying jobs, paralyzing industry, or barring the use of resources like coal.” So if your job ruins the environment, it would be safe under a Romney administration.

Climate policy

The flip side of energy policy is, of course, climate policy, and here the two candidates also have opposite views.

Romney has recently hedged his position on climate change by saying that he believes the world is getting warmer and that human activity has contributed to that, but that he also thinks “there remains a lack of scientific consensus” about its extent, its risk, and the degree to which human activity is to blame. He no longer talks about the importance of reducing greenhouse gas emissions, as he did during the GOP primaries, and he is firmly against having America take steps to reduce them without China doing so as well. Indeed, he would reverse recent U.S. progress on reducing emissions by eliminating Clean Air Act restrictions on them, citing his concern for coal industry jobs. His energy plan does not mention “climate change” or “global warming” at all. And in his speech last week at the Republican National Convention, Romney even joked about climate change: “President Obama promised to slow the rise of the oceans [pause for audience laughter] and to heal the planet. My promise is to help you and your family.”

Climate change is no joke for the Democrats, however. Their platform calls it a “real, urgent, and severe” national security threat, “an economic, environmental, and national security catastrophe in the making.” Further, the plan “affirm[s] the science of climate change” and declares that “Democrats will continue pursuing efforts to combat climate change at home. . . because reducing our emissions domestically — through regulation and market solutions — is necessary to continue being an international leader on this issue.” Responding obliquely last week to Romney’s joke, Obama quipped, “Denying climate change doesn’t make it stop.”

Apart from the rhetoric, the Obama plan remains short on details about how to address the climate change threat. It offers the tired and vague blandishments about building an international framework to address emissions, despite the obvious failure of recent international climate talks. His administration’s new standards targeting coal plant emissions mainly apply to new plants, which aren’t being built because they’re uncompetitive with cheap natural gas. The cap-and-trade approach to emissions control that Obama once supported (as did Romney) is no longer on the table after being shot down by Senate Republicans in 2010. The Democratic platform emphasizes a 10-year plan to encourage “clean coal,” but that technology is still in its infancy, with only demonstration plants under development. The available data on clean coal is not promising, because the emissions-scrubbing technology requires so much energy that the plant becomes uneconomical. As a policy strategy, clean coal seems more designed for political appeal than for actual emissions reductions.

Future implications

America still does not have an energy plan, and neither Obama nor Romney have cured that potentially fatal flaw. Both have offered general directional strategies and political fodder, not anything you could call an actual plan.

But the directions they would take us in could not be more different, and their implications will echo long into the future.

If my best guess is correct, all fossil fuels will have peaked and gone into terminal decline around 2025-2030. We will have to be well along in the transition from fossil fuels to renewables before that, because after it, building big infrastructure projects will become progressively more difficult and expensive and the rate of deployment will slow considerably. We really have less than 20 years to get most of the job done. Since non-hydro renewables currently produce only about five percent of U.S. electricity, we’ll have to be extremely aggressive about energy transition, starting right now, if we want to avoid the worst outcomes for our economy and our society as a whole.

President Obama’s strategy is clearly the better of the two choices for meeting that challenge. My reading of recent academic research suggests that generating 80 percent of our electricity from renewables by 2035 might be technically and economically possible, if not likely in our political climate. But by 2050, we’ll be grateful for every last kilowatt-hour we can produce from renewable free fuels. And the “debate” about climate change will be long gone, replaced by a frantic quest for survival and adaptation.

Governor Romney’s energy strategy is painfully regressive and utterly blind to these clear and present dangers. It sounds like an energy policy from 1970, not 2012. Not only are his claims about our current energy situation wrong — for example, citing U.S. oil production at 15 million barrels per day, according to the Washington Post, when the reality is 6.2 million barrels per day — but his expectations for the future of oil are absurd, claiming “we” (meaning North America) will be producing over 23 million barrels per day eight years from now. That’s more than the world’s top two oil producers, Saudi Arabia and Russia, combined.

This is an unfortunate U-turn for Romney, who just two years ago wrote in his book: “But whether the peak is already past or will be reached within a few years, world oil supply will decline at some point, and no one predicts a corresponding decline in demand. If we want America to remain strong and wish to ensure that future generations have secure and prosperous lives, we must consider our current energy policies in the light of how these policies will affect our grandchildren.” I could have given an enthusiastic thumbs-up to that Mitt Romney, but the current Mitt Romney has apparently surrendered to the policy wishes of his fossil-fuel industry donors completely and lost his head.

At least as far as energy policy is concerned, there isn’t really a choice between the two candidates at all. One is leading us toward a semi-realistic future, while the other would leave us in the lurch as fossil fuels decline. And while it’s true that elections are about more than energy issues, if energy becomes the biggest challenge of this century as I expect it will, then maybe that’s all you really need to know.

Photo: Austen Hufford/Flickr

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Chris Nelder

About Chris Nelder

Chris Nelder is a columnist for SmartPlanet.

Chris Nelder

Chris Nelder

Columnist, Energy

Chris Nelder is an energy analyst and consultant who has written about energy and investing for more than a decade. He is the author of two books on energy and investing, Profit from the Peak and Investing in Renewable Energy, and has appeared on BBC TV, Fox Business, CNN national radio, Australian Broadcasting Corp., CBS radio and France 24. He is based in California.

Follow him on Twitter.

Chris Nelder

Chris Nelder

Chris may or may not have financial holdings in the companies he writes about at the time of publication, as he is an active investor and trader in equities and ETFs. He also occasionally travels at the expense of companies or their press relations agencies in order to report on a company or industry event related to it. Chris prominently discloses this information when appropriate. These relationships have no influence on his coverage. Companies he covers do not get to review columns in advance, or select or reject topics.

He writes for SmartPlanet, but is not an employee of CBS.

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+5 Votes
+ -
It's still mostly about supply and demand, not government
No matter what Obama or Romney do, it appears that energy supply and demand in North America are coming closer in balance. The maximum demand and minimum production in North America occurred in 2005. Ever since then demand has been going down (well before the recession) and supply has been going up as new drilling technologies are taking hold. Thus we have a trend that started in the Bush administration and continued through the Obama administration, despite two very different energy policies. See http://www.eia.gov/naturalgas/crudeoilreserves/index.cfm#fnote1 , http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=pet&s=mcrfpus1&f=a , http://www.eia.gov/dnav/ng/hist/n9010us2m.htm , and http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/08/17/us-usa-api-monthly-idUSBRE87G0UQ20120817 . If current trends continue in line with both parties' "all of the above" strategy, there is a possibility we could see overall North American energy supply and demand come into balance by 2020. However, this won't happen without the new mileage standards promoted by the Obama administration, and which are not supported by Romney. Romney's plan also assumes about 1 million barrels a day coming from biofuels, even though he is not a big proponent of them and they still require huge government subsidies.

Contrary to what Mr. Neider asserts, government subsidies for coal and natural gas electricity production amount to only 64 cents per MWH while solar is $765.64 per MWH and wind is $56.29 per MWH (see http://www.emailthis.clickability.com/et/emailThis?clickMap=viewThis&etMailToID=1201253705 , this link should get around the Wall Street Journal paywall for the next few days). The $4 billion per year federal subsidies the oil industry as a whole gets is derived mainly from the same capital depreciation tax laws that are available to any business. It's a tiny amount in an industry that contributes tax revenues of tens of billions a year. Solar, on the other hand, just creates black holes like Solyndra that swallow hundreds of millions without a trace (though it appears this loss will be available as tax credits to Solyndra's investors, some of whom are major Obama contributors, see http://www.emailthis.clickability.com/et/emailThis?clickMap=viewThis&etMailToID=2002391853 ).

As for carbon emissions, the actual truth is that today the US is already close to meeting the Kyoto standards (basically reducing CO2 emissions to 1990 levels). US energy related CO2 emissions (including transportation and electricity production) are the lowest since 1992 (see http://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.cfm?id=7350 ). While warmer weather played a part, as well as lower gasoline demand due to higher prices (supply and demand again), most of it has come from moving away from coal electricity production to cheaper natural gas (again driven by supply and demand). A byproduct of this is lower CO2 emissions since natural gas produces much less CO2 per MWH than coal. Who knew fracking would be the single most effective means of reducing CO2 in the last 20 years?
Posted by zackers
Updated - 5th Sep
+6 Votes
+ -
a novel idea
why not end government subsidies for all energy and let the market sort it out?

why not end government interference and regulation (government spends less money)

the government could then use the money saved to invest in research, or humanitarian concerns.
Posted by Cabo Wabo Addict
5th Sep
+6 Votes
+ -
Because then the government wouldn't have anything to do.
Politicians and government derive most of their wealth and power through regulation and subsidies, which wealthy individuals and companies pay handsomely to influence. Once these "feedback loops" are in place, they are virtually impossible to eliminate.

For example, it's almost universally accepted today by both industry and environmentalists that our Ethanol policy is a disaster, resulting in billions of dollars wasted, massive market dislocations, environmental damage, and food shortages. (Even Al Gore admits it was a mistake and that he supported it only to buy votes) And yet, no matter who wins come November, we will still have the same policy of mandates and subsidies in place next year, and the year after, and after. Why? Because a portion of the subsidies are directly fed back to the politicians who have the power but not the will to put a stop to it.

In 100 years, all cars could be powered by solar, wind and high self-esteem, but we'll still be subsidizing and mandating Ethanol.
Posted by JohnMcGrew@...
5th Sep
+4 Votes
+ -
The Jungle
How much oil would be washing up on the shores of the Gulf of Mexico without government interference and regulation? Self regulation seldom works. Did you ever read "The Jungle" by Upton Sinclair?

In ending government subsidies for all energy would you include the subsidy that fossil fuels get when they don't have to pay the cost of externalities such as increased asthma and heart disease, etc for people exposed to the byproducts of their use?

It's not nearly as simple as you make it out to be.
Posted by riverat1
5th Sep
+3 Votes
+ -
There are still contervailing forces
Government regulation is not the only solution to most problems. If BP had just let the oil spill go, they would have been sued out of existence under existing general tort laws. People would stop buying gas at their stations.

Even "The Jungle" or "Silent Spring" were countervailing forces. They each were written by an individual, but they changed whole industries.

Government needs to provide the general legal framework and the courts to settle disputes. But the more specific regulations get, the more government interferes with people and companies going about their productive business.
Posted by zackers
9th Sep
0 Votes
+ -
You are idealistic, not practical.
You're idealism is sweet but in the real world am I going to risk my meager assets trying to go against someone like BP? Especially difficult would be cases where it's not possible to assign liability directly to an individual entity such as the asthma or heart disease caused by the pollution from vehicles. Are you going to sue every driver? or all of the filling stations that enable them?

If the company officers and shareholders had a more direct link to the consequences of their failures (read criminal liability) they would probably be more responsible but corporations are set up to shield those people from personal liability. If corporations and business entities weren't allowed to externalize costs they'd be more responsible but that's pretty impossible to do. I'd rather have government act in my stead.
Posted by riverat1
Updated - 10th Sep
0 Votes
+ -
Most people do not understand the difference.
What the difference is between needed business regulation and over regulation.

Needed regulation is the FAA saying that all commercial airliners must be carpeted with fire resistant carpeting that meets certain pollution emissions standards when smoldering to limit choking smoke in the event of a fire.

Over regulation is the FAA under the Obama administration saying that replacement carpet must meet the same standards AND be made of all natural materials obtained from only sustainable sources.

Seeing that no such carpet existed, that new regulation effectively stopped the replacement of worn carpets on commercial planes until such a product was created.
Posted by Hates Idiots
11th Sep
0 Votes
+ -
END
Just end ALL Government interference and READ the CONSTITUTION?
Posted by mgturbo1
5th Sep
+1 Vote
+ -
Sorry, but that's bs...
The Constitution IS THE BASIS of the government, after all.

Without what you are calling "Government interference," (I call it doing what government is SUPPOSED to do), reading the Constitution would be absolutely useless.

(Have YOU read it?)
Posted by Lightning Joe
5th Sep
-2 Votes
+ -
RE: Sorry
Evidently you have not. 95% of what the Feds are doing is actually the purvey of the individual states to decide and act upon.
Posted by GregGold
5th Sep
+7 Votes
+ -
Yes lets follow Constitution.
Article 1 Section 8. Powers of Congress.

The Congress shall have Power to lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States.

To borrow money on the credit of the United States.

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with Indian Tribes;

To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and navel Forces;

From the Preamble of The Constitution of the United States

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessing of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

It clearly states the government is there to serve the people. That is why no corporations, groups or organizations should be allowed to be involved with elections or lobbying.
Posted by dennyinusa
5th Sep
+2 Votes
+ -
Energy
"why not end government subsidies for all energy and let the market sort it out?" Americans sometimes forget (or don't know) that the five major U.S. oil companies have to compete in the international marketplace against foreign oil companies that are heavily subsidised. And while President Obama restricted offshore drilling in tthe U.S., he subsidized it in Brazil, for a comany connected to one of his largest contributors..

Barack Obama promised that ,"under my plan of a cap and trade system, electricity rates would necessarily skyrocket" and that "will cost money
Posted by bb_apptix
5th Sep
+4 Votes
+ -
Offshore drilling not restricted.
Obama has not restricted offshore drilling. He just put a temporary moratorium on deep water drilling while they were sorting out the aftereffects of the BP Deepwater Horizon spill. Shallow water drilling was still allowed and now deep water permitting has resumed.
Posted by riverat1
Updated - 5th Sep
+1 Vote
+ -
Prove me wrong!
It's amusing how I get negative votes for a simple factual statement, I suppose because it doesn't fit the voters worldview. Prove me wrong!
Posted by riverat1
5th Sep
+4 Votes
+ -
check your sources
the Brazil bs was debunked long ago

http://urbanlegends.about.com/od/barackobama/a/obama_offshore_drilling_brazil.htm
Posted by gallysbox
5th Sep
+2 Votes
+ -
It couldn't be done here in the US
So the U.S. Export-Import Bank loaned money to Petrobras, Brazil's national oil company, so it would buy American equipment.

If the US government made low-interest loans to an US oil company drilling in the US under similar circumstances, the outcry from greens complaining about US government oil industry subsidies would be deafening.
Posted by zackers
Updated - 9th Sep
+5 Votes
+ -
A balance article?
Are you kidding? You are not sure "if Romney plans to annex Canada and Mexico"??? How about addressing this administration's refusal to have the DOE consider safe, cheap, thorium nuclear energy? This would not only avoid the possibility of nuclear melt-downs, but also create the medical isotopes so sorely needed, and free us from the Chinese stranglehold on rare earth metals! Renewable energy sources are good additions to the pool of sources, but these have the disadvantage of either being made from FOOD (i.e., ethanol) or are intermittent (i.e., solar, wind). We need two articles like this. Yours, and "the rest of the story". Shame on you.
Posted by padre3210
Updated - 5th Sep
0 Votes
+ -
Pie in the Sky, here...
You are living in lala land, if you think ANY of this matter in current time. What is at issue in this election is simple: putting the brakes on a runaway car, or stepping on the accelerator as it runs for the cliff.
Posted by Lightning Joe
5th Sep
0 Votes
+ -
Nuclear has massive water use
My main issue with nuclear power is that it uses massive amounts of fresh water. Plants that can use grey water are being worked on, but it still requires millions of gallons of water each day.
Posted by Spiffyman
6th Sep
+2 Votes
+ -
What about Ethanol?
You are concerned by the fresh water use by nuclear power? How much power do I get for the water used? What about what consumption of water to produce biofuels. According to a study the Virginia Water Resources Research Center in liters per 1000KWh:
Ethanol - 32,400-375,900
Biodiesel - 180,900-969,000
Nuclear - 31,000-74,900
Posted by jpgrl
7th Sep
+13 Votes
+ -
Why this might not matter at all...
This is not a doomsday comment, but there is an unfortunate reality to consider here. Namely, that even if Pres. Obama *does* get re-elected, and is hopefully able to serve the whole of his second term, that still only brings us 4 years into what is a roughly 24 year energy plan, in terms of his goals for efficiency. 24 years folks, that's a bare minimum of *THREE* presidents after this one, or if everyone serves their full four years, as many as SIX. Anyone of of these people could up and derail or out right kill this much needed action. And given the highly divisive state of our country's mind set right now, the likelihood of this getting the axe before it can bear fruit is very, very likely.

I'm not saying don't vote, and I'm not saying it's hopeless, and I'm not supporting one party over another. What I AM saying is that, if the environment is important to you, make sure your elected officials, whatever their party affiliation, know that, and have their facts straight. There are tons of bits of misinformation and half truths out there, even a few brilliantly crafted lies, and unfortunately, a great deal of false hope about how little we need to change our behaviors as a species to prevent this looming disaster. We cannot wait to tighten our belts on energy usage, and to stop using the more polluting fuel sources, until all the other countries do. Polluting the earth is not a right, or a privilege, it's a shame and it ought to be a crime. We need to step up and lead by example, rather than complaining that other people in other countries still get to do what we shouldn't want to do anyway.

If you feel similarly, and you want to see things get done to protect the planet, make sure sure that ALL your candidates on ALL levels of your government know that, because this has got to happen on all levels for the foreseeable future. We can't pin our hopes on one guy, who's power is actually pretty limited, who has some good ideas, and assume he'll make the problem go away. The problem doesn't just "go away." It's going to take consistent effort by a series of people who understand what's going on and are willing to make the right choice for the environment, regardless of how unpopular it may be in the view of big business and other special interests. Because at the end of the day, whether they realize it or not, those groups still live here too, and they still need a habitable planet, and whether they get it or not, letting them run amock with outdated energy policies is a slow suicide for all of us.
Posted by 6Wolves1Spirit
Updated - 5th Sep
+5 Votes
+ -
Can you be so sure?
After all, we've been subsidizing Ethanol for 3 decades now, or 6 more years than Obama's supposed 24-year plan.

Some bad ideas just never go away.
Posted by JohnMcGrew@...
5th Sep
+6 Votes
+ -
Stick to the topic at hand please.
Fine, you don't like ethanol or the fact that our government subsidizes it. Thing is, that has absolutely nothing to do with my point at all. You missed it entirely. My point is that caring for and healing the environment is a LONG TERM GOAL that is EVERYONE'S responsibility. Most of us aren't in a position to make the decisions that will guide the country in this respect, but we DO choose those decision makers. And we need them to be conscientious about it.
Posted by 6Wolves1Spirit
5th Sep
+1 Vote
+ -
Then it's clear that you missed my point, entirely...
...which is that as long as the government takes the role of choosing winners and losers based almost entirely upon pop science and who's buddies and bundles with whom, there will be no "healing the environment".

It's certainly true that "Most of us aren't in a position to make the decisions that will guide the country in this respect", but it's also true that the ones we've been choosing to do so aren't either. The current state of the President's alternative energy agenda is painful enough proof of that.
Posted by JohnMcGrew@...
Updated - 5th Sep
+2 Votes
+ -
John's Right
All we can do is promote a clean culture, and hope that people start adopting it. Let's say that I feel like 6Wolves: I vote for whoever has the environmental priority (or that's what the slimy politician told us). That's how you end up with crooks in office that will say anything to get elected by people that believe anything that a "pro-green" politician tells them. As long as the government is involved, the correct way of doing the task at hand will never happen. Less government=more things happening the way that they're actually supposed to happen. Slash and burn the government wherever possible, and make a clean planet (and whatever else the majority supports) "cool."
Posted by vcrewchief
5th Sep
+2 Votes
+ -
Can't do that
No long term effort is possible without a consensus that the effort is necessary. That consensus isn't possible due to the efforts of the fossil fuel industry & it's allies in other corporations. It's disinformation campaign has succeeded in confusing the public - it never needed to win, only force a draw that translates to inaction. It's lobbying efforts have won over the GOP & some Dems as well. Beyond the USA, China is under enormous pressure to improve living standards, India is under similar pressure but with a rapidly growing population as well, and Brazil & Russia owe their prosperity to fossil fuels.
Posted by theotherwill
5th Sep
+1 Vote
+ -
You Miss the Most Important Thing
@theotherwill,

You miss the most important part. The 'Alternative Solutions' are just not cost competitive with what we are currently using. Cost is in the final analysis what will really win.

Read the Article. While obviously written by an Obama Booster, it still recognizes that 'renewables' are still more than an order of magnitude more expensive than the old carbon ones. Until this is no longer true, the changes you want just won't happen.

One possibility is to build a bunch of nuclear reactors, and use the power from then to concentrate carbon dioxide from the air, and then add water and energy, and make methanol. The Methanol can then be modified into a suitable fuel source.

This has the advantage of at least working, and being scalable. We also have the advantage with this of already knowing the environmental impacts.

Solar Electric and Wind energy production also have major environmental impacts. Most people just don't know what they are yet.

But, whatever we choose, burning food as the US and Europe currently do is not a good solution. Particularly when independent audits have for many years found that they production of these 'Biofuels' use more fossil fuels than the fuels they replace.
Posted by YetAnotherBob
5th Sep
0 Votes
+ -
what is your basis?
You claim Chris is an obvious Obama supporter. What is your basis? The fact that as in all of his articles he tries to use logic to get to his conclusion?
Interesting...
Posted by harrim47
6th Sep
-6
More CO2
Posted by CSouthard  |  Below your threshold
+2 Votes
+ -
More oxygen?
Oxygen is even more essential to OUR survival but I guarantee you wouldn't like the effects if we increased it by 40% in our atmosphere like we have CO2.

It is well recognized that increases in CO2 are a feedback of warming. That is true but it in no way says that increasing CO2 levels through other means can't cause warming. It's not a binary either/or situation.

Using your numbers atmospheric CO2 is increasing by a bit less than 5 ppmv/year however if you look at total human caused emissions of CO2 it would be enough to raise levels by around 10 ppmv/year so a bit more than half of CO2 emissions are being absorbed by other sinks in the carbon cycle. We are increasing the total carbon in the active carbon cycle which raises the level everywhere.

In your "simple maths" calculation you totally ignore the sink side of the carbon cycle. For about the last 10,000 years CO2 levels in the atmosphere hovered around 280 ppmv varying up and down by around 10 ppmv on a yearly cycle and only when humans started significant combustion of fossil fuels (and to a lesser extent certain land use changes such as deforestation) did the level in the atmosphere start increasing.
Posted by riverat1
Updated - 6th Sep
-1 Votes
+ -
The oxygen of alarmism...?
Hi riverat, I see you are still plugging away at your lost cause. Nice to have you back though - quite like old times!

I can always rely on you for a weird side-stepping kind of argument. This time you have excelled yourself. You say:

"Oxygen is even more essential to OUR survival but I guarantee you wouldn't like the effects if we increased it by 40% in our atmosphere like we have CO2."

Who said we would like it? Apart from anything else the forests would all burn down. But you know (and I suspect you are hoping your readers mostly won't know) why this is such a terribly weak argument. Some facts: the first four constituents of the atmosphere are:

NITROGEN 780,840ppm (78%)
OXYGEN 209,460ppm (21%)
ARGON 9,340ppm (0.9%)
CO2 394ppm (0.04%)

Whilst increasing the amount of oxygen in the atmosphere by 40% would clearly have a CATASTROPHIC effect, increasing the amount of CO2 in the same ratio would not even be noticeable because it is a trace gas (except that plants would grow faster, agriculture would have greater yields, and all sorts of other consequent good things would happen).

If you still are adhering to the strange notion that another 40% increase in CO2 from the 1750 pre-industrial baseline figure of 277ppm is going to produce a disaster, even though the last one from 1750 to 2011 generated diddly squat warming (around 1degC over 261 years) then just say so and we can all smile indulgently. But please don't try to pull off intellectually shallow comparisons like the one you just made.
.
Posted by cosserat@...
Updated - 6th Sep
+1 Vote
+ -
Traces Shmaces
I'll admit I was a bit hyperbolic about the oxygen content thing but your assumption that the trace amounts of CO2 in the atmosphere "would not even be noticeable" is not very supportable either. Do you have anything to back you up other than it just seems like such a minute amount? After all it only takes a trace amount of cyanide in the air to kill you. 270 ppm of cyanide gas in the air will kill you within minutes.
Posted by riverat1
6th Sep
0 Votes
+ -
OMG...another trite comment!
This simply opens up the old "is man-made CO2 really having any effect on the climate?" debate. Did I not make the point that the temperature since 1750 (presumed approx. start of the industrial revolution) has only increased by around 1degC over 261 years? Look at the DATA. When the world mean temperature departs alarmingly from its slow long term climb (0.4degC per century) - well that will be the time to re-visit the radiative transfer HYPOTHESIS which, currently, remains dead in the water. In the meanwhile we should let the FACTS speak for themselves and stop spending taxpayers' money on expensive scams and boondoggles.
Posted by cosserat@...
7th Sep
0 Votes
+ -
As opposed to ...
... a comment that ignores years of scientific research. For the climate whether CO2 is "man-made" or not is beside the point. The CO2 in our atmosphere has a significant effect on climate through it's effect on temperature and changes in the level are bound to affect climate. It's built into the physics of the situation.
Posted by riverat1
10th Sep
+1 Vote
+ -
The amount of CO2 released by human activity is measurable...
...by looking at the carbon isotope ratios, which are different from carbon released from geologically sequestered coal beds, oil fields, etc. So while the physics of radiative transfer and the greenhouse effect does not change depending on the source of the atmospheric carbon, the source of that carbon is traceable through a combination of pretty good record keeping and carbon isotope ratios. Both indicate that the amounts released through human activity are enough to trigger the climate changes we are experiencing and that the data is showing us.
Posted by klassman6
10th Sep
0 Votes
+ -
Reply to klassman6
klassman6, I wasn't trying to imply the added CO2 wasn't coming from human sources and that it wasn't a problem, just that the total CO2 is what's important. I've known about the c12/c13 isotope ratio issue for at least 5 years.
Posted by riverat1
11th Sep
+1 Vote
+ -
MORE CO2 - correction
I lost track of the decimals, instead of ten billion, is should be 100 million. Sorry, but it does not change my conclusions.
Posted by CSouthard
5th Sep
+7 Votes
+ -
CO2 in the atmosphere
Scientific consensus does not support what CSouthard contends is common sense. What used to be common sense is not that common anymore, but science sometimes has to fly in the face of common sense. That CO2 at a few hundred ppm in the atmosphere can in fact substantially alter the climate is well documented physics, because of its very high absorbance of certain wavelengths. That the complex feedback of atmospheric composition and temperature is governed by numerous factors is also well accepted. As someone who works intimately with the petroleum industry, and has been cautious about adopting a scientific consensus view from a field apart from my own, I also consider it fairly clear from data I first saw in Alaska in the 1980s that the current warming, evident in wellbore temperature profiles in the Arctic, does in fact coincide well with the increasing output of old carbon from human activity. We currently return that carbon to the atmosphere at one billion times the rate at which it was deposited over tens to hundreds of millions of years. As a geologist I have seen the calculations, and they are both rational and scientific. It is not unreasonable to conclude that the increase of about 100 ppm in atmospheric CO2 cannot reasonably be achieved under current conditions without both anthropogenic and natural forcings. An increase of 5 ppm per year, as reported by Mr. Southard is a remarkably large increase, given that every decade it increases the CO2 content by 15-20%. Brief rapid increases have occurred in geologic time, under unusual circumstances, and they provide useful models for what is happening now due to anthropogenic inputs of old carbon. Unfortunately, Mr. Southard's view is not becoming the main stream, but the rear guard. Increasingly, the arguments of this scientific opposition take on the form of creationist arguments against evolution - citing of long refuted arguments, concentration on uncertainty, ad hominem attacks on participants.
I am not a fan of the Obama administration actions on oil and gas, as they run counter to the high rhetoric of the policy, and support cutting modest but useful tax benefits to one industry, while supporting much larger (in cost per unit energy delivered - as noted by John McGrew) for another, but am not in love with the Republican pronouncements of support for all, but avoidance of legitimate government support for research and development in both fossil and renewable fuel.
Jeremy Boak, Director
Center for Oil Shale Technology and Research
Colorado School of Mines
Viewpoints expressed are mine, not positions of the Colorado School of Mines.
Posted by JeremyBoak
5th Sep
+3 Votes
+ -
CO2 Is Not The Most Important Greenhouse Gas
These debates always seem to center around CO2. But, CO2 is just not a very good greenhouse gas.

A much better greenhouse gas is water vapor. Methane is also up there, each at well over 10 X the warming effectiveness of CO2.

Oh, and good old chlorofluorocarbon, (Freon) is way up there, with well over a thousand times the effectiveness of CO2 for warming.

Even solar variability has more impact than CO2.

Oh, and SO2 is also more powerful than CO2, especially when water vapor is present.

It's really a quite complex subject.
Posted by YetAnotherBob
5th Sep
0 Votes
+ -
A complex subject...? Only if you make it so.
Trouble with your theoretical argument is that it just doesn't stack up against the facts. CO2 is the only relevant gas (and that is only if you believe in radiative transfer theory which many do not - it is highly controversial) because it is the only gas that is being added to the atmosphere at a significant rate.
Posted by cosserat@...
6th Sep
+1 Vote
+ -
It's not "the most important"...
...but it's politically valuable because it's the one that industrialization is allegedly responsible for deploying in significant qualities. It's the rhetorical weapon of choice of today's anti-capitalists and redistributionists.
Posted by JohnMcGrew@...
6th Sep
+1 Vote
+ -
CO2 IS the most important greenhouse gas
I've heard scientists say CO2 is the big control knob on climate.

Water vapor is an important greenhouse gas and it does cause more greenhouse warming than CO2 but it's not something we can control. Over 70% of the Earth's surface is covered by oceans that freely evaporate water into the air controlled primarily by temperature. Since water vapor is controlled by temperature it can not drive temperature.

Of the other greenhouse gases you mention it's true that many of them are more effective greenhouse gases than CO2 but their concentration in the atmosphere is so low compared to CO2 that they can almost be ignored with the possible exception of methane. And even methane oxidizes to CO2 and water vapor within 10-20 years so it the long run it's just more CO2.

CO2 more than any other greenhouse gas is the primary controller of Earthly temperatures (after accounting for solar input).
Posted by riverat1
Updated - 6th Sep
-1 Votes
+ -
My Jaw Dropped Open...
JeremyBoak, Director, Center for Oil Shale Technology and Research, Colorado School of Mines says...

"That CO2 at a few hundred ppm in the atmosphere can in fact substantially alter the climate is well documented physics, because of its very high absorbance of certain wavelengths. That the complex feedback of atmospheric composition and temperature is governed by numerous factors is also well accepted."

and...

"We currently return that carbon to the atmosphere at one billion times the rate at which it was deposited over tens to hundreds of millions of years. As a geologist I have seen the calculations, and they are both rational and scientific."

and...

"It is not unreasonable to conclude that the increase of about 100 ppm in atmospheric CO2 cannot reasonably be achieved under current conditions without both anthropogenic and natural forcings. An increase of 5 ppm per year, as reported by Mr. Southard is a remarkably large increase, given that every decade it increases the CO2 content by 15-20%."

My jaw dropped open. Complete twaddle - and from a geologist at a School of Mines, no less. The scientific method is not his strong point, apparently.

Firstly, the idea that a few hundred ppm of CO2 can substantially alter the climate is not settled science. To the contrary, the radiative transfer theory is highly controversial. And crucially (although presumably this is not considered relevant by Jeremy Boak's flavour of scientific practice) it is a hypothesis that has not been borne out by the facts. Since 1850, when good instrumental temperature measurements began, the world mean surface atmospheric temperature has increased at an average rate of only 0.4degC per HUNDRED YEARS - and for the last 15 years it has not increased at all. So all the predictions of alarming global warming have come to naught. Science bows to good data if the data contradicts an unproven hypothesis. And not the other way round, as any good scientist should know.

Secondly, to say that we are returning CO2 to the atmosphere at "one billion times the rate at which it was deposited" is just scurrilous emotive nonsense worthy only of the worst kind of pathological environmentalist. It does not inform the debate one jot, which should be about when fossil fuels (coal, gas, oil, uranium, etc.) are going to run out (the answer being several hundred years).

Thirdly, if he had bothered to check Mr Southard's figure of 5ppm per year increase he would have found it is completely wrong. The actual increase in atmospheric CO2 over the past 40 years has been almost completely linear at a rate of 1.5ppm per year. So at that rate over the next 88 years to the year 2100, there will be an additional 117 parts per MILLION of CO2 in the atmosphere. Excellent for plants. Completely non-toxic to humans. And historians will be laughing out loud at the gullibility of (some of) their ancestors.
Posted by cosserat@...
Updated - 7th Sep
+1 Vote
+ -
My jaw drops at your reply.
Firstly, the idea that a few hundred ppm of CO2 can substantially alter the climate is not settled science.

Cosserat, if you removed all CO2 from the air the average temperature on the Earth would rather quickly drop below freezing.

I don't see how you can say the average rate of temperature increase per century in 0.4C when the increase since 1900 has been a bit over 0.8C. And I don't see how you can claim there hasn't been any warming in 15 years when the warmest years on record were 2005 and 2010 and the 10 warmest years on record have all occurred since 1998.

Yes, 5 ppm/year was overstated but the atmospheric CO2 curve is not strictly linear but has curved upwards over time. The current rate is closer to 3 ppm/year than 1.5 ppm/year. Scientists have estimated with BAU that we will have doubled CO2 from the starting 280 ppm to 560 ppm sometime in the 2070's.

BTW, uranium is not a fossil fuel but I'm sure you knew that.
Posted by riverat1
6th Sep
0 Votes
+ -
One out of six correct...bad score!
riverat1, The only thing you say that is correct is that uranium is not a fossil fuel. Of course I should have said that it is a non-renewable energy resource along with the fossil fuels.

Let me now challenge each of your other points in turn:

(1)"If you removed all CO2 from the air the average temperature on the Earth would rather quickly drop below freezing."

That is a HYPOTHESIS that needs to be tested against real world DATA. The only practical test is to see if man-made CO2 has raised the world mean temperature alarmingly since the beginning of the industrial revolution, a period during which it is widely accepted by almost everyone that the atmospheric concentration of CO2 has risen by around 40%. So if removing all the CO2 from the atmosphere would cause a drop of 33degC (a figure that is widely claimed), increasing it by 40% since 1750 should presumably have shown up by now as a really alarming temperature rise, of lets say at least 10 degrees! The FACT is that there isn't any sign in the temperature record of significant warming, just a very unalarming natural variation (see below).

(2)"I don't see how you can say the average rate of temperature increase per century is 0.4C when the increase since 1900 has been a bit over 0.8C."

I can say it because it is true. See: http://www.thetruthaboutclimatechange.org/tempsworld.html
The blue linear regression line shows a long term linear trend since 1850 of 0.41degC per century over the full 161 year period.

The only way you got your figure of 0.8degC (a rise of 0.7deg/century) is by choosing a conveniently shorter period, thus exaggerating the contribution from the upswing that occurred between 1970 and 2000 - an upswing that got the alarmists in a dither and the whole man-made global warming bandwagon under way. You could have chosen an even shorter period. How about 1970 to 2011 - a whopping 1.5degC/century warming? Or I could have chosen the period from 1940 to 1980 - a negligible 0.01degC/century warming. It's called cherry picking. It is NOT SCIENCE.

Of course, the 1970 to 2000 upswing has now ceased, and is most likely going to be trending down for the next 25 years. But, instead of bringing happy smiles of relief to the faces of the alarmists, this has got them into even more of a dither as they see their radiative transfer HYPOTHESIS being slowly but surely negated by FACTS.

(3)"And I don't see how you can claim there hasn't been any warming in 15 years when the warmest years on record were 2005 and 2010 and the 10 warmest years on record have all occurred since 1998."

You really know the warmist film script off by heart don't you. Just take a look at the grey plot between 1998 and 2010 on the temperature graph I linked to above. I will leave it to readers to decide just what level of nonsense you are talking. By the way, since there has been an entirely unalarming natural rising temperature trend of 0.4degC per century for at least the last 200 years, OF COURSE the temperature record will be broken (unalarmingly) every few years. Duh!

(4)"The atmospheric CO2 curve is not strictly linear but has curved upwards over time. The current rate is closer to 3 ppm/year than 1.5 ppm/year."

Well here are some FACTS. The Mauna Loa rate-of-CO2-increase figures for each of the last 10 years in ppm/year are as follows: 2.1, 2.5, 1.7, 2.3, 2.1, 1.8, 1.9, 1.8, 1.8, 2.4, 1.8. I calculate that to be an average rise of 1.8ppm/year. I will leave it to the more mathematically inclined reader to decide whether 1.8ppm/year is nearer to my 1.5ppm/year than it is to your 3.0ppm/year.

(5)"Scientists have estimated with BAU that we will have doubled CO2 from the starting 280 ppm to 560 ppm sometime in the 2070's."

Ah! "Scientists have estimated..." It seems that futurism is all that warmists have left since the FACTS have inconveniently started pointing in the opposite direction. But the real point is that the exact rate of CO2 rise doesn't matter anyway - because the FACTS of the temperature record show that CO2 does not appear to be affecting temperature significantly, if at all.

I know that none of the above will persuade you. But as I have said many times to you in our encounters over the last couple of years, let's just wait and see which of us is right by 2020.

If the trend has drifted upwards alarmingly by 2020, it will be game set and match to the alarmists. But if, as many now believe, the trend is downwards...what then will the alarmists do for a living?

Cheers.
Posted by cosserat@...
Updated - 8th Sep
0 Votes
+ -
OK, I can't resist
klassman6 here, and I can't let you and riverat1 have all the fun. Your wild assertions are just too irresistable to ignore! First of all, your charting is of the HADCRUT data, instead of the GISS data, which automatically reduces the amount of global temperature anomalies due to the fact that the HADCRUT dataset under-represents the arctic temperature increases due to the paucity of data collection sites in the arctic, an area where the greatest surface temps are taking place.

You talk about how there is only .4C degree per century increase knowing fully well that the rate is increasing over time, not just merrily oscillating away as you selectively define your mathematical description on your website. For instance, 2/3 of the warming from 1880 until the present has occurred since 1975, and global temps in the past decade was about .8C degrees warmer than the 1880-1920 mean. The decadal increases since the 1970s has been between 0.15 and 0.2C degrees.
link: http://pubs.giss.nasa.gov/docs/2010/2010_Hansen_etal.pdf

And then there's the statement about CO2 ppm not being very much, which you correctly attribute the annual average during the last decade as being only 1.8ppm/year, not 3. What you then fail to say is that in the 50s and 60s the annual increase was less than 1ppm/year, or less than half of what it has been for the past 10 years.


Finally, I want to just remind you that your descriptive fit of curve for a relatively short historical duration is just that--a descriptive fit. It has no powers of attribution, is limited in its predictive power (I might say that the earliest section of the temperature curve does not fit your 67 year average anyway), and gives us no insight on the other preponderance of data in all other areas where scientists are monitoring changes attributable to climate change.

I know that not of the above will persuade you, either, but, like I said, I couldn't resist!
Posted by klassman6
8th Sep
+2 Votes
+ -
Thanks
Thank you klassman6. I was debating whether to take the time to respond to cosserat but you did it for me. I would like to point out that his TTACC site is using HadCRUT3 data and not the new HadCRUT4 product that does a better job of including the polar regions. HadCRUT4 pretty much agrees with GISS now.
Posted by riverat1
10th Sep
-1 Votes
+ -
See you back in 2020
Hi Klassman and Riverat,

Yes, the temperature record COULD go either way from now on, especially if our trustworthy 'climategate' friends at the University of East Anglia manage to RETROFIT THEIR STATISTICS.

If the temperature continues to go up alarmingly, as predicted by Hansen etc., you will be right and there will be a serious problem.

If, as I believe will happen, it stays within the dotted red 'tunnel' lines on my graph, exhibiting a RELATIVE downturn over the next 10-20 years, with a continuing long term average rise of only 0.41degC per CENTURY, then climate alarmism will be dead in the water.

I know which I'm going to bet on.

So, see both you guys back for a rain check in 2020...

All the best.
Posted by cosserat@...
11th Sep
+1 Vote
+ -
Wishful thinking.
If the trend has drifted upwards alarmingly by 2020, it will be game set and match to the alarmists. But if, as many now believe, the trend is downwards...what then will the alarmists do for a living?

Well, so far the discernible trend is upward so good luck with that.
Posted by riverat1
10th Sep
+1 Vote
+ -
Alas, 2020 is not a rain check date, it's a prescription for disaster
Cosserat,
It's fine for us to make an intellectual agreement to revisit this in 2020 to look at the data again. But in the meantime, if you are incorrect, the results will be quite disastrous in that the continued GHG emissions for another 8 years will make the atmospheric carbon pool large enough to in all probability create climatic havoc for hundreds if not thousands of years before natural or human influences can sequester enough carbon again to make a return to pre-industrial levels. Just as a general on the battlefield has to go on incomplete information, experience, hunches and a little luck, human societies are going to have to take action before all the evidence is in on the exact forcing dynamics of climate change is completely understood. Therefore, it seems wisest to aggressively pursue reduced carbon emissions now while we have a chance to impact the processes, backing off later if and only if your predictions, however unlikely they are, turn out to be correct. Doing nothing now will not provide us an option to start that process in 2020 as you suggest would be possible if you are wrong. Such dallying could be unfortunate at best, catastrophic at worst.
Posted by klassman6
12th Sep
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