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Airline strap-hangers: would you be willing to stand if a flight was less than $10?

By | July 2, 2010, 9:34 AM PDT

Subway rides are relatively cheap because they can accommodate and move almost unlimited crowds of people to their destinations. Could airlines do the same thing?

Yes, airlines already are adept at moving herds of people in and out like cattle, but is is now being reported that Michael O’Leary, CEO of Ireland-based Ryanair, is proposing taking things a step further. His idea is to add standing areas on his fleet of 250 jets with “vertical seats.”

The suggested cost for a one-hour flight in the standing area would be £5, or about $7.58 in US dollars.  About 10 rows of seats would be taken out of the backs of planes to accommodate the new standing areas.

Also, part of O’Leary’s plans include pay toilets onboard the aircraft, charging £1 (or $1.52) per visit. O’Leary reasons that this would encourage passengers on shorter hops to use the airport facilities.

The vertical-seat plan is being evaluated by safety officials, who could put the kibosh on such a plan due to regulations that passengers must be seated with a seat belt during take-offs, landings, and turbulence. And, hopefully, the pay toilets will take credit cards.

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Joe McKendrick

About Joe McKendrick

Joe McKendrick is a contributing editor for SmartPlanet.

Joe McKendrick

Joe McKendrick

Contributing Editor, Business

Joe McKendrick is an independent analyst who tracks the impact of information technology on management and markets. He is the author of the SOA Manifesto and has written for Forbes, ZDNet and Database Trends & Applications. He holds a degree from Temple University. He is based in Pennsylvania.

Follow him on Twitter.

Joe McKendrick

Joe McKendrick

Joe McKendrick is an independent consultant and editor. Joe has performed project work for the following companies in the IT marketspace: IBM, Systinet/HP, Teradata. He has performed project work for the following organizations in partnership with Unisphere Research (Unisphere Media): IBM, Oracle Corp., International Oracle Users Group, Oracle Applications Users Group, Professional Association for SQL Server, International DB2 Users Group, International Sybase Users Group.

He writes for SmartPlanet and is not an employee of CBS.

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RE: Airline strap-hangers: would you be willing to stand if a flight was less than $10?
Is this guy insane? Maybe I would think about it if, and only if, he and the upper executives of Ryanair were to use this as their primary choice for air travel. As if that would ever happen.
Posted by gbrandenstein
6th Jul 2010
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RE: Airline strap-hangers: would you be willing to stand if a flight was less than $10?
Maybe they can take a page out of some of the middle eastern countries train ticketing and allow people to ride on top of the plane!
Posted by Akais1
6th Jul 2010
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RE: Airline strap-hangers: would you be willing to stand if a flight was less than $10?
If standees faced rearwards and had a steeply inclined leaning support with adjustable elbow rests to take some weight off the legs and feet occasionally it could work for short flights, ie to London, Paris, Iceland, etc. The leaning support could be a wire mesh, far lighter than seats.
Posted by fw32
6th Jul 2010
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RE: Airline strap-hangers: would you be willing to stand if a flight was less than $10?
I've ridden the subways, etc., and have held those strap hangers. Turbulence on the subway is bad enough (and you're on rails, generally traveling horizontally), but I personally doubt it'd go over well, even for an hour, if we encountered some bad air turbulence. And PLEASE don't comment it doesn't happen!

Yeah, just try landing one of these things in iffy weather with the weight load constantly shifting. Why do you think everyone is seated? And if you need to use the rest room? Or, perhaps there's no longer a need for the seat belt sign during take-offs and landings?

Someone should fly in an airplane, and see how well they maintain their balance during just those two parts of the flight. Sure, let's place SRO straps on the planes. Then let's watch the lawsuits mount up from injured passengers. Not just the ones who lose their balance, but those they injure. It happens on the subway frequently enough, and frankly, those airframes are generally tight already.

I'm all for a smart planet, but this idea has so many things wrong with it, I think I need a hit of WHATEVER was being smoked to agree with this.

Think SAFETY FIRST!!!

M.
Posted by mcswan454
6th Jul 2010
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RE: Airline strap-hangers: would you be willing to stand if a flight was less than $10?
For myself, I would be okay with it, provided there were EXTENSIVE safety measures in place to make sure that, in the event of a crash, people weren't literally falling all over each other. Pay toilets however, is just nuts. It's a basic human need and no one should have to pay for it. Some people have disabilities and/or other medical conditions that make it extremely difficult to predict and control the need to use the bathroom. It is not fair to make them pay extra because they didn't "go before they left" and can't wait till they land.

Also, again on the disability/medical condition front, there are a large number of each that would prevent such people from being able to take advantage of the cheaper seating, only because they simply are physically unable to travel vertically. It's unintentional I'm sure, but it's still discrimination. At least on the subway, these folks get charged the same amount as everyone else, whether they sit or stand.
Posted by 6Wolves1Spirit
6th Jul 2010
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RE: Airline strap-hangers: would you be willing to stand if a flight was less than $10?
They should have their stewards/stewardess crew try out such seating at their stations. Get their feedback. Plus if it were known that the service crew on the plan were also sitting the same - more people may try it. I would interested to know how many more people could stand in same space where 10 rows of people sit. Would it really be cost effective for the airlines? Also wondering about the airbags that would come down. Would there be enough for all standing?
Posted by llandau@...
6th Jul 2010
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RE: Airline strap-hangers: would you be willing to stand if a flight was less than $10?
Have you ever watched people in line for something over an hour? Like DisneyLand, or other theme park? They contantly shift feet and move around to get more comfortable in a difficult situation.

Why not have horizontal, instead of vertical passengers. As long as you are not claustrophobic, you could stack people horizontally as easy as vertically. More people would likely use this as it would be more comfortable over time needed for flight.
Posted by DadsPad
6th Jul 2010
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RE: Airline strap-hangers: would you be willing to stand if a flight was less than $10?
Have you ever watched people in line for something over an hour? Like DisneyLand, or other theme park? They constantly shift feet and move around to get more comfortable in a difficult situation.

Why not have horizontal, instead of vertical passengers. As long as you are not claustrophobic, you could stack people horizontally as easy as vertically. More people would likely use this as it would be more comfortable over time needed for flight.
Posted by DadsPad
6th Jul 2010
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This will be amusing to see in practice.
I wonder how many people could be crammed into an Airbus A380 this way. The Japanese may go for this as they run some very high-density inter-island shuttles.

Of course on this side of the pond, this is all a regulatory non-starter. The FAA's rules regarding how passengers are secured are quite explicit.
Posted by JohnMcGrew@...
6th Jul 2010
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RE: Airline strap-hangers: would you be willing to stand if a flight was less than $10?
I have ridden Ryan Air and can tell you directly it is already an administrative (not to mention anxiety-riddled) nightmare under normal circumstances flying under all of Ryan Air's conditions and restrictions. It does not surprise me that Michael O'Leary would try a stunt like this. His regard for his customers is next to non-existent as it is. Cleary passenger safety is not even second or third on his list behind how many Euros he can squeeze out of his planes and passengers. Will the flight staff be forced to stand as well? Guaranteed they will have to cough up a few bob as well to use the loo.
Posted by mdillon@...
6th Jul 2010
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RE: Airline strap-hangers: would you be willing to stand if a flight was less than $10?
Most of the comments I have read are way off base. This guy is trying to SAVE people money. The comment about it isn't fair to handicapped people is ridiculous. Airlines are in business to MAKE money not provide free service to anyone. I think it is a fabulous idea. $10 flights, how can you beat that?
Posted by dwiloch03@...
6th Jul 2010
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RE: Airline strap-hangers: would you be willing to stand if a flight was less than $10?
"Strap-hangers" is an unfortunate misnomer. it should really be "Standing Accomodation" - or something like that. It is possible to accomodate passengers in a standing position that will increase the payload of the plane enough to severly reduce the cost of the ticket. However, those passengers will also have no overhead sorage space. All belongings will have to be checked, unless they fit in a very small case between the feet.

Imagine three padded tubes about 4 inches in diameter set horizontally at 15 inches, 28 inches, and 54 inches (relative to the floor). The passenter is belted to both the 28 inch and the 54 inch tube.

These tubes provide some structure to the standing space, ensure that the space is not overloaded, and prevent the standing passengers from hurting others in the case of turbulance.

There is a small padded case 8 X 12 X 10 inches between the feet for the storage of personal items. Anything not fitting in that case must be checked. Standing room passengers are loaded into the plane last to ensure they consume no overhead space.

It could work, and meet safety requirements.
Posted by mhpembe
6th Jul 2010
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RE: Airline strap-hangers: would you be willing to stand if a flight was less than $10?
I wouldn't do this if the flight was free. This is an idea of an insane man.
Posted by ITOdeed
6th Jul 2010
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RE: Airline strap-hangers: would you be willing to stand if a flight was less than $10?
As an old retired Air Force pilot, I believe O'Leary needs to be evaluated by a phychiatrist.
Posted by jtrouse3@...
6th Jul 2010
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RE: Airline strap-hangers: would you be willing to stand if a flight was less than $10?
If you this you had better make sure everyone is required to purchase a bathroom token that is 100% refundable.

In any case, I sincerely doubt that you will be able to make this concept pass current FAA regulations. Also, you would have to make
adjustments for the "plus sized" people or what would be the point?

Better to come up with a formula that charges by weight and space
taken up. Yes, fat people will pay more, but they cost more.
You could set up a row of seat less areas for wheel chairs. They pay
more for the weight of the wheel chair, but its offset by the weight of
the chair that would have been in the plane.
Posted by richard233
6th Jul 2010
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RE: Airline strap-hangers: would you be willing to stand if a flight was less than $10?
Great idea. We used to spend the weekend in the Bahamas and from Miami it is 20 mintes. I have been in line longer at the Publix grocery store.

For $5 or $10? You bet your bloomin' peonies I would!
Posted by IMWeira
6th Jul 2010
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RE: Airline strap-hangers: would you be willing to stand if a flight was less than $10?
I live in Mumbai, India. We do train journneys in worst conditions for almost an hour each way, every day. Its sad that why an Indian did not think this before. Still this is a thought in right direction...
Posted by waghe
6th Jul 2010
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This is a gimmick
For those of you not familiar with Ryanair, the headline cost of a
seat is low, but all the extra charges (for example, unless you
have a very specific obscure debit card, you pay outrageous
charges for the card, and you now have to pay for online check
in). A recent Which? consumer report showed that the real cost
for a family ended up very little cheaper than on real airlines.

There is a good joke doing the rounds at present, along the lines
- Michael O'Leary (Ryanair boss) goes into a bar and orders a
pint of Guinness. He asks how much and is told $1, and then the
barman says "you'll be wanting a glass with that Mr. O'Leary?"

Ryanair take obscure and hidden charges to a new height, and
you usually have to get most of the way through the booking
process before you can determine exactly what you will be
paying. They have had some good legal battles e.g. over
charging disabled users extra, and in the recent volcanic ash
debacle, if you were on Ryanair, then you really were on your
own. Initially they announced that they would not even pay the
legally mandated compensation, although the Italian government
fined them $3M for this. In the UK, I happen to know that failure to
pay the EU denied boarding compensation is a criminal offence
and a $30,000 fine, as I had to do battle with Alitalia over being
similarly shafted.

After standing, he will no doubt introduce surcharges for tall
people, large circumferences, big feet.
Posted by tony@...
6th Jul 2010
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RE: Airline strap-hangers: would you be willing to stand if a flight was less than $10?
The vacuous criticisms help convince me this is a good idea.
Posted by pranavb99@...
6th Jul 2010
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VERTICAL IS NICE - BUT HORIZONTAL IS BETTER - why not couchettes???
LIKE IT - BUT why not also horizontal? For longer flights, instead of seats, lets have narrow couchettes like 2nd class Euro train compartments. We could sleep cheap. I'd gladly give up every other amenity on a plane for a chance to go horizontal in economy class on long flights.
Posted by glnz
6th Jul 2010
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VERTICAL IS NICE - BUT HORIZONTAL IS BETTER - why not couchettes???
HEY - MAYBE THAT'S WHAT RYANAIR IS AIMING FOR - If a passenger starts vertical, it's easier for one vertical surface next to him to tilt and become a horizontal couchette. That way, there'd be no need to convert a seat into a couchette. Again, I would gladly do this in economy class on a longer flight!!
Posted by glnz
6th Jul 2010
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RE: Airline strap-hangers: would you be willing to stand if a flight was less than $10?
NOT ON YOUR LIFE. Ever hear of turbulence? The aircraft altitude can change rapidly, and you would be a BB in a Box Car. No thanks
Posted by ScottRamsey
6th Jul 2010
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RE: Airline strap-hangers: would you be willing to stand if a flight was less than $10?
Not on your life. Ever hear of turbulence? It causes an aircraft to change altitude quiet rapidly. Ever been on a flight and had the captain order all on board to put on their seat belts because of turbulence? You would be tossed around like a feather in a hurricane.
Posted by ScottRamsey
6th Jul 2010
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RE: Airline strap-hangers: would you be willing to stand if a flight was less than $10?
In reading Mr. O'Leary's idea of having passengers stand throughout a flight so as to make flying more economical for passengers and the airline, I'm reminded of a noteworthy quote from the late longshoreman-philosopher Eric Hoffer: Genuine ideas are like michievous children who tweak your cheek, to get you to think.

Having people stand on an airplane comes across as crazy partly because of our natural resistance to change what we're familiar with. Would I want to stand on an airplane throughout even a short flight? Maybe not. But, let's think about this: In the event of a severe crash, you're going to die anyway. On the other hand If one's physical person can be suitably restrained in a standing-up position, perhaps he or she could survive landing in the Hudson river in the middle of January provided of course, proper rescue is available in a timely manner.
Posted by AlexKovnat
6th Jul 2010
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RE: Airline strap-hangers: would you be willing to stand if a flight was less than $10?
Subways are cheaper because they are slower and travel less distance (generally) than your average flight.

This is a laughably ridiculous idea.
Posted by hiraghm@...
6th Jul 2010
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RE: Airline strap-hangers: would you be willing to stand if a flight was less than $10?
I would totally do this. I hate sitting in planes anyways. I don't like the idea of pay toilets though. After some of the public transport I have taken in different parts of Asia & Mexico, this would be fine with me & allow me to do more domestic travel. And horizontal stacking would be way more dangerous. If you are standing you can be strapped to a frame in your area when you take off & land that will secure you from the motion of acceleration & deceleration. Lying down does not afford this unless you are very tightly strapped it, though I would prefer to take a nap.
Posted by jahcriado
6th Jul 2010
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RE: Airline strap-hangers: would you be willing to stand if a flight was less than $10?
How about horizontal platforms.... line people up in layers like sardines.... like back in the old days of slave ships....?
Posted by bonafide49
6th Jul 2010
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Bob Newhart did a comedy routine about something like this years ago
"The Mrs. Grace L. Ferguson Airline (and Storm Door Company)"

I would expect this coming from Southwest except from the way they treat their passengers it would be shackles rather than a subway type strap.

I speak from experience with Southwest.
Posted by Albee_Freeoneday
6th Jul 2010
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RE: Airline strap-hangers: would you be willing to stand if a flight was less than $10?
A clamp type restraint like on roller coasters, etc, could be made that could be almost comfortable. Maybe a small fold out jump-seat could be used between take off & landing. It all sounds reasonable to me.
Posted by BigJohnLg
6th Jul 2010
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RE: Airline strap-hangers: would you be willing to stand if a flight was less than $10?
I don't envision a group of standing passengers passing muster with any airline safety regulators. The pay toilet idea is another matter. If another airline is available, the one with pay toilets should be shunned by the paying customer. All airlines, trains, intercity busses, - and all stores and other fixed location businesses - that wish to attract customers who may be in the facility for more than 30 minutes should, as a good business gesture, provide free restrooms. While I don't openly and actively boycott stores that I know do not provide public restrooms, I do consciously decide to patronize the store with public restrooms when all else is near equal.

Safety regulators should nix the standing room idea, and paying passengers should vote with their ticket purchases (on another airline) to nix the idea of pay toilets.
Posted by john3347
6th Jul 2010
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RE: Airline strap-hangers: would you be willing to stand if a flight was less than $10?
I don't mind the standing, but holding the chickens while the plane does some crop dusting is a bit of a juggling act!
Posted by dnldsn_m
6th Jul 2010
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Let passengers line up in a crouch and "spoon" each other
Or in a sitting position like a bobsled team, wrapping arms around
the person ahead? Would help to alternate boy-girl boy-girl.
Posted by kellycarter
6th Jul 2010
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RE: Airline strap-hangers: would you be willing to stand if a flight was less than $10?
No ,i wouldn't stand up on a flight because
every 5 minutes alls you here over the tanoy is would all passengers please sit down.
Posted by modification1
6th Jul 2010
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RE: Airline strap-hangers: would you be willing to stand if a flight was less than $10?
This is actually dumber than the "cover the freeways with solar
panels" idea.
Posted by Jkirk3279
6th Jul 2010
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RE: Airline strap-hangers: would you be willing to stand if a flight was less than $10?
An absolutely insane idea. First, most people wouldn't be willing to stand up for hours. Second, in the US, the FAA would NEVER permit this due to the safety aspects. Third, passengers who had paid for seats wouldn't want a hundred SRO passengers catapulted into them on landing, or rough air.
This is about like asking people to hang onto the wings!
Posted by rphunter42
6th Jul 2010
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RE: Airline strap-hangers: would you be willing to stand if a flight was less than $10?
Don't you people realise this is a fantastic publicity stunt.Well done whoever dreamed it up! Standing on an aircraft is against all safety regulations & would never be allowed, this would be known to an experienced operator like Mr O?Leary. laying down on landing in the event of a crash would have the same effect on the body as jumping out of a 2nd floor window.I think the extra staff cleaning costs upon landing would out weigh any gains from having pay toilets when a mans got to go a mans got to go especially one with prostate problems, who is not that well off otherwise he would not be on board! pass the paper cup...
Posted by ronangel
6th Jul 2010
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First address the original setup:
Why did the airlines serving the general public decide to have people sit while on board?

Even if you could stand on a short flight for cheap - they first should address how long it takes to get through check-in, baggage, etc.. It doesn't make sense to stand in lines, walk the concourse, load, unload etc for 1 1/2 hours of your life for a 20 minute flight where you get to stand. The least they can do is let you sit and rest your feet. If air travel were like subway travel - this could work. But - it's not.

Personally, I like the idea of riding on the outside for free! Anybody know which 727 is headed to Hawaii next?
Posted by GuntherGump
6th Jul 2010
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re. Comment #9
>> I wonder how many people could be crammed into an Airbus >> A380 this way??

Don't ask. You will exceed the gross take-off weight of the plane and the amount of fuel you could take on would only get you from LAX to SFO.

I wouldn't like to get bounced around like bowling pins while flying through chop.
Posted by dave@...
6th Jul 2010
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Dave, the high-density routes I am thinking of in Japan...
...are barely 100 miles. Very little fuel is carried in exchange for
greater payloads. They currently fly 747s with around 500 pax.
Posted by JohnMcGrew@...
6th Jul 2010
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Reading between the lines?
I saw nothing in the article that mentioned "subway straps", and I seriously doubt that the engineers who would design this setup would assume that everyone has sufficient hand strength to hang on during turbulence. It's pretty obvious that we figured out the danger of loose objects flying around a long time ago- that why luggage is stored in the overhead containers. I seriously doubt that danger would be overlooked when humans would be that flying debris.Isn't it immensely more likely that they are thinking of some sort of harness??

As for pay toilets, who cares? Most of us are able to take care of that business before hand, and not need another potty break for an whopping hour. If I scored a flight for $5 to $10, I wouldn't give a crap (pun intended) about spending a lousy buck fifty extra if I had to. Sheesh, how cheap ARE some of you?

@gbrandenstein "Maybe I would think about it if, and only if, he and the upper executives of Ryanair were to use this as their primary choice for air travel." WHY? This an a choice, an OPTION for those trying to save money... what does it matter if the executives do it or not?? You're free to pay the full fare and sit!

@ronangel So, by your logic, the man who has "prostate problems" would be in dire straights because he may have to shell out maybe an extra $4- $6 for the loo? Let's do some math, shall we? 10 (flight) + 6 (loo) =$16. Cost of the flight where the loo is "free" = $50/$75/$100? He is hardly getting screwed.

With proper harnessing (and quick release buckles), this could be a great alternative for those of us who aren't handicapped, can stand comfortably for an hour, and have normal bladders.
Posted by ddferrari
6th Jul 2010
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RE: Airline strap-hangers: would you be willing to stand if a flight was less than $10?
This has to be a joke. What kind of "crash position" is there for a
standing person? Any severe vertical acceleration would go
straight into an SRO passenger's spine. Perhaps if the pilot was
nice enough to lawn dart the aircraft and the SRO supports spun
to face aft... The biggest problem though is the wait. Get caught
on the tarmac for any one of a number of stupid reasons and that
ticket won't seem so cheap anymore. They will also have to be
discriminatory by nature... if a person wants to stand even when
it's obvious they shouldn't and they pass out or something then
it's lawyer time. Remember, this is the land of "my hot McDonald's
coffee burned me when I spilled it on my lap in my car so
obviously it was too hot." I don't even want to imagine the
frivolous lawsuits that will be generated by this idea.
Posted by QuiMoi
6th Jul 2010
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RE: Airline strap-hangers: would you be willing to stand if a flight was less than $10?
Why not just come to the airport and get cryo hybernation or some other suspended animation and stuffed in a tube and loaded horizontally. Once at the destination wake up in baggage claim after a refreshing nap and be on your way. LOL
Posted by TitusHooker
6th Jul 2010
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RE: Airline strap-hangers: would you be willing to stand if a flight was less than $10?
What moron would even suggest such an idea? As a captain I damn sure wouldn't try to fly it!
Posted by TXShelbyman
6th Jul 2010
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Horizontal for me!
If the Japanese can do it with their hotels, why not the airlines?
Build the plane with a honeycomb-like interior.
Or, like a revolver. Have the chamber rotate as each passenger slides into his/her tube/chamber.
They could even have a doctor onboard who could administer Propofol, when requested...
Posted by FiOS-Dave
6th Jul 2010
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Standing in the open format Loo?
Can you get more in the Loo if sitters have to stand up? Take the door off and you can also save on weight.
Posted by FreeloaderFred
6th Jul 2010
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RE: Airline strap-hangers: would you be willing to stand if a flight was le
look again at the prices. you get what you pay for. want a free
snack pack? fly for a higher price. You don't see the unwashed
masses complaining about riding on the bus when they're at the
traffic lights and a mercedes is parked next to them??
Posted by loic bellet
6th Jul 2010
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RE: Airline strap-hangers: would you be willing to stand if a flight was less than $10?
This is merely another of Ryanairs publicity stunts, why pay for
advertising - just come up with a wacky idea, let it slip to a few
reporters and hey presto the grapevine picks up on it and you have
..... worldwide free publicity.
Posted by john.e.baker@...
7th Jul 2010
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RE: Airline strap-hangers: would you be willing to stand if a flight was less than $10?
This guy is just a sexist pig - He wants to watch a woman's boobs bounce. Can you imagine the smell? BO, gas, vomit - you know its going to happen, the stomach is a funny thing - what is the resting position ( its not standing) one person faints it people bowling. No - if the put poles, you could have pole dancing. But seriously we have physics issues( center of gravity, mass in motion) I remember we could get the bus to seriously bounce by determined movement by a half dozen high school age boys. Even if i mounted ( funny word in this context) passengers in a harness like a parachute the movement would exaggerate any movement the plane made. He is not very scientifically minded, do the math boy! I would say something else - Any CEO that speaks like this about the customers and his employees is more dangerous than ken (enron) leigh.
Posted by emc2mm@...
7th Jul 2010
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RE: Airline strap-hangers: would you be willing to stand if a flight was less than $10?
Who needs advertizing when you make outrageous statements that are covered by the press? It generates a lot of buzz and is cheaper that paying an ad agency and for the equivalent space in print or for air time in broadcast media.
Posted by David Wilson
7th Jul 2010
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RE: Airline strap-hangers: would you be willing to stand if a flight was less than $10?
I would rather be tarred and feathered, placed in stocks in the public square, shot at sunrise. Flying used to be fun - I can actually remember that. But it's become an horrendous exercise in endurance and the airlines really ought to be paying passengers just for putting up with the rigors of 21st century air travel.

I'll probably never travel in Ireland, because I'm thinking the Greyhound bus is a far more tolerable mode of transport.
Posted by Starbuckin
7th Jul 2010
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RE: Airline strap-hangers: would you be willing to stand if a flight was less than $10?
Not unless both safety and comfort were MORE than adequately addressed. I have ridden on Chicago's CTA system for many years and noted how unsafe standing riders were on both trains and buses: one good bump and people either went flying or fell, and if a driver hit something, forget it. In addition, people with back or other health concerns could not be as easily accommodated in a standing position as sitting, and as several people have pointed out, there is the added issue of mobility, especially if someone has to use the restrooms. Therefore, this concept requires a great deal of additional information, if not research, before it can be put into practice.
Posted by CNSLarson-22616001467594013335560760219576
29th Jul 2010
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